We assume it's around human levels because krogan population growth rates were noted to be extremely high by any previously known standards. And because they and the rachni were both noted to be able to outbreed most everyone else, which wouldn't be an issue if the salarians were able to get their zergspawn on in much the same way.
Krogan females, before the genophage, could produce clutches of up to 1,000 fertilized eggs over the course of a year. That is extremely high compared to the dozens that Salarians produce, but that doesn't inherently mean Salarians' growth rate isn't high compared to humans'.
For example, for my most conservative estimates, I assumed that Salarians on average died at 32, hit a reproductive age at 20, produced 12 eggs in a year instead of dozens, and produced a clutch every other year. I'm working under the assumption that that would more than make up for any pressures not covered by "a decision to not have children due to economic pressure." To be clear, that's less than half of their total lifespan I'm assuming they're capable of producing children at a quarter of the minimum rate we know for them, even making conservative assumptions about the meaning of "dozens," just so that I can get the smallest number I can that still is in any way still related to the facts we have.
Even with all that, their average growth rate, when it's not hard-bounded by space and money, is ~11% yearly.
The Krogan birth rate is up to ~1000% yearly.
Even if we do the same thing, half and quarter it, it's still more than an order of magnitude more than the conservative Salarian birth rate estimate, even before we get into how much longer they survive. So, yeah, Salarians having a population growth rate that's significantly higher than humans doesn't mean they can in any way keep up with Krogans or the Rachni.
And because the krogan genophage, designed by salarians, brought krogan birth rates to roughly human levels.
Given that it was designed by salarians, that suggests their own birth rates are around that level, when leveled out for the entire population.
Bringing them down to a 1% growth rate is just sane if you're trying to curb their explosive potential. The question is, why would they want to try to match Salarian growth rates anyway?
My expectations concerning their population are basically these:
Salarians, as a society, are probably capable of growing at their biological rate when negative external factors are removed.
The most important external factors limiting their growth rate are probably economic, infrastructural, and political, stemming primarily from the previous Dalatrass's paranoia and obsession with control.
And I'm pointing out that other actors have agency, and aren't fools. We have an entire legislative branch, after all.
If we attempt to do this, it will be noticed.
They do have agency, but no other single actor has the level of ability to influence this society on the level we do, and we don't even need to exert more influence than is to be expected with a new vassal state. The point isn't that we'd be exercising undue influence for nefarious purposes, it's that when we do interact with them, we do it with the understanding that we're interacting with a cultural and societal monolith largely disconnected from outside influence. Sure, it'll be noticed, but it shouldn't ever be at a level where we reach impropriety, let alone where we could be called out on it. I'm not talking about preventing others' access to their society or working to create a cultural hegemony with us at the head, I'm just talking about... strategic cultural imprinting.
The martial law is not going to be permanent, and nothing in the option we voted for says they can't open new research facilities or that their scientists have to work for us alone. We're only taking existing facilities.
We are also instituting controls over their military, and importantly, influence over their budgets.
Important because science needs funding: grants and equipment and installations.
Unless you think the new govt can simply say, hire people we disapprove of and build new installations from scratch.
Krogan females, before the genophage, could produce clutches of up to 1,000 fertilized eggs over the course of a year. That is extremely high compared to the dozens that Salarians produce, but that doesn't inherently mean Salarians' growth rate isn't high compared to humans'.
Mass Effect is a multispecies setting where interspecies breeding is a thing.
There is zero indication that the salarians are any more fecund in aggregate than the asari.
And the asari aren't remarkably more so than humans. Or turians.
If salarians had a standout growth rate, their population would be something of note. Especially since they have been out in the galaxy for >2k years.
The growth rate you posit would make them the undisputed galactic power after several hundred years of peace, especially when paired with their technological edge; power does have a strong correlation with population, tech levels being equal.
And yet they share equal power with the turians and the asari, and it's the asari who are the richest.
Bringing them down to a 1% growth rate is just sane if you're trying to curb their explosive potential. The question is, why would they want to try to match Salarian growth rates anyway?
I disagree you're talking about the dispersion of our force to hold down worlds we won't have the manpower to do. Our planetary forces may be larger than their total population, however, I point to the quote below.
Your army is up to the task of fighting on a single world, but cannot even reliably field armies within your own cluster without dangerously weakening Virmire's defenses. Given your recent shift to an offensive posture, this will probably soon become a problem.
Our army is capable of holding down our home world and performing planetary assaults if we are forced to garrison those worlds even with a smaller population it would still be quite an undertaking and would spread our units out unacceptably and could cause us issue if we are forced to deal with a low-intensity conflict from their former leaders loyalist. These kinds of wars can eat up large armies for breakfast look at the USSR against Afghanistan for instance.
We are also instituting controls over their military, and importantly, influence over their budgets.
Important because science needs funding: grants and equipment and installations.
Unless you think the new govt can simply say, hire people we disapprove of and build new installations from scratch.
Mass Effect is a multispecies setting where interspecies breeding is a thing.
There is zero indication that the salarians are any more fecund in aggregate than the asari.
And the asari aren't remarkably more so than humans. Or turians.
If salarians had a standout growth rate, their population would be something of note. Especially since they have been out in the galaxy for >2k years.
The growth rate you posit would make them the undisputed galactic power after several hundred years of peace, especially when paired with their technological edge; power does have a strong correlation with population, tech levels being equal.
And yet they share equal power with the turians and the asari, and it's the asari who are the richest.
Growth rates are, again, externally constrained by space and resources, both of which are primarily limited by physical space on available planets. Spread to new planets is limited through political and economic will and feasibility, rather than through any biological restrictions. Part of the reason the Krogans were such a problem was because they weren't restricted in the same way, both because they could survive in a much wider variety of environments and because they didn't bother with things like "colonization rights" when they were picking new planets. On the other hand, the Lystheni are not restricted by planet space. They already have the planets, and we're still functioning on a level where the population of three planets can be a pretty big deal.
Because a salariancentric worldview would default to using salarian biology as a benchmark.
Alright, if we assume that Salarians' growth rate is much higher than 1%, why would they use it as a benchmark if their goal is explicitly to curb Krogan growth rate? If their goal is explicitly to prevent Krogan growth, and they are obviously capable of calculating a geometric progression, then setting their growth rate to be anywhere near 10% or more is just stupid no matter what the Salarian rate is. Their goal wasn't to bring population growth down to "normal" levels, it was to prevent population growth beyond levels that are easily manageable.
We are also instituting controls over their military, and importantly, influence over their budgets.
Important because science needs funding: grants and equipment and installations.
Unless you think the new govt can simply say, hire people we disapprove of and build new installations from scratch.
I'm not saying that they're going to build new facilities in a year. I'm saying that we can't actually control access to research subjects that are very large in scale.
We don't really need to take full control of a sub-par research facility that's looking into some geological phenomena. We don't really gain much of anything from that, aside from some data they've already collected, but we can get that just by requiring they hand over the data they've collected thus far. I doubt we'd save all that much money in comparison to building our own research facility to study something like that, since it'd be better built from the start. Access and observation is more important for something like that than control. I don't see why we should care about them researching something along those lines, so long as they're no insanely unethical experiments going on.
On the flip side, precursor ruins would be something we'd want to have control of, if for no other reason than the actual artifacts we could dig up would be a finite research resource. But we're also far better equipped to research them, so it makes far more sense for us to be the ones to do so. Ruins are also likely to be in a more contained area, so are a lot easier to deny access to.
Our army is capable of holding down our home world and performing planetary assaults if we are forced to garrison those worlds even with a smaller population it would still be quite an undertaking and would spread our units out unacceptably and could cause us issue if we are forced to deal with a low-intensity conflict from their former leaders loyalist. These kinds of wars can eat up large armies for breakfast look at the USSR against Afghanistan for instance.
Undertaking, sure. It is still within our capabilities, now.
And we can expand those capabilities faster than the opposition can do expand theirs.
Hell, we can simply bottle them on planet until we're done upgrading our army, and then achieve landfall.
The carrying capacity of a planet with spacelift capacity, fusion energy and an urban population is going to be in the double digit billions.
The population of Earth alone was circa 11 billion as of Mass Effect Incursion.
On the other hand, the Lystheni are not restricted by planet space. They already have the planets, and we're still functioning on a level where the population of three planets can be a pretty big deal.
They are restricted by economy. By available resources.
Children in a technological society require significant investment to be viable citizens, else you're simply creating problems for yourself.
There is a reason why RL population growth in societies that attempt to educate their kids in any sort of organized manner isn't higher than 3%.
Alright, if we assume that Salarians' growth rate is much higher than 1%, why would they use it as a benchmark if their goal is explicitly to curb Krogan growth rate?
Because they need a benchmark for comparison? Implicit social bias?
Like I said earlier, the salarians have the most kids at a time, the most advanced technology, and the galaxy's most effective espionage force.
Yet the Asari are the most wealthy(see the Destiny Ascension), and the turians have the most military force.
That's a pretty strong indication that their population growth rates are not out of line with the asari or the turians.
And asari reproduction rates are pretty similar to human ones.
I'm not saying that they're going to build new facilities in a year. I'm saying that we can't actually control access to research subjects that are very large in scale.
Of course we can. We just need to keep an eye on the funding and staffing.
Think of the kind of eye that the Western Allies kept on much of West German research post-WW2 until they were satisfied they weren't about to go off again. Implementing something similar is basic common sense.
I just had an interesting thought. I don't know if its been brought up before since I just joined the thread. But What if we hired the Lystheni Shipyard to build our frigates for us. They already have the designs for the Frigates. All they need is the Supplies and manpower to build them.
So looking at the title tags I can see female protagonist and I wanted to ask if Mira is a Asari that identifies as female. I had an idea with Kirai and her. Would mostly be PG 13.
So looking at the title tags I can see female protagonist and I wanted to ask if Mira is a Asari that identifies as female. I had an idea with Kirai and her. Would mostly be PG 13.
Mass Effect nominally has asari as monogendered, which apparently makes them not female. To which I respond, "that word does not mean what you think it means, BioWare." Monogendered, not agendered. Asari have one gender, and it is female.
[X]Plan Sunshine
--[X] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
--[X] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
--[X] All Lystheni military assets placed under your command.
--[X] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
--[X] A network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister).
--[X] Full lystheni intelligence records
--[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (claim the LBZ).
--[X] Claim all Lystheni research sites. Allow joint access to vetted lystheni scientists on condition of full data disclosure.
--[X] Economic support of Lystheni interests, working towards a common understanding and cooperation (basically civilian Marshall Plan by Virmirean companies OR the FDO).
[X][SISTER] Imprisonment. People in favor of the death penalty would object to this one, but those against would love it, so it comes out to as popular.
[X][DAD] Imprison him in Virmirean space. More proportional to anything he's actually done, and Shereel asked that he live, so it's not a hard concession.
Research Policy
You depart Lystheni space with two political prisoners in tow, and re-enter your own territory.
Not that there's much difference between your space and theirs at this point.
Shereel was not thrilled to -- essentially -- agree to a state of Lystheni vassalage, but she did recognize that she didn't precisely have a choice. A quick farewell with her father later, a conspicuous lack of a farewell with her sister to follow, and she saw you on your way.
The Special Representative From Virmire will be on their way along with their staff to assume residence on Taramnal within the week.
All in all, you're satisfied with the work you've done here. Crisis resolved, enemy forcibly converted to an ally -- good times all around.
Now begins the aftermath.
"I already have handed the reports over to the relevant experts," says Durrahe, the image on the screen flickering in the grip of some interference. "They'll be back to me with proposals from the various teams hoping to gain spots on the research sites. For now, though, I do have a preliminary report on just what we're dealing with here."
"We were a little concerned with other matters during the negotiations themselves, yes," you say, smirking.
He rolls his eyes. "Naturally. I, on the other hand, am your man in charge of, approximately, precisely this." He lays his hands on the desk in front of him. "To launch right into things: the Sikel sites were, of course, devoted entirely to the artifacts removed from SO 4. However, shortly after the move was completed it became apparent that researchers and staff in regular contact with a particular artifact had been adversely affected by the proximity, despite what I must begrudgingly admit were unimpeachable containment procedures."
"It, 'became apparent?'" you ask, letting the sheer lack of context present in those words do the talking.
"Researchers at the Sikel site were selected for psychological stability and loyalty before any other qualifications," says Durrahe, letting your sarcasm slide off him like water. "The artifact induced severely antisocial behavior. The researchers banded together and attempted to seize their station. By the time Lystheni irregulars seized control of the platform, the researchers were in the process of attempting to overload its power core. In interrogations, they were lucid, but intractably hostile. They voiced a noted distaste for the Dalatrass's agenda and authority where before they had been among her most loyal servants. It had all of the trappings of an ideologically anarchist revolt, but in individuals with no history of such beliefs."
You grimace. "No prizes for guessing what she'd like to do with something like that."
"Surprisingly, her intention was not to use it to sow chaos within Virmirean space," says Durrahe. "Not principally, anyway. She did have plans along those lines, but her primary objective was to discover how the artifact functioned so that she could reverse the affect and apply it to her own people."
You consider that for a moment before shuddering. "That's...disgusting."
He gives you a grim nod. "Yes, it is. And it would have been terrifyingly effective. Unfortunately, it would seem that her efforts to even determine the artifact's means of acting on its subjects were for naught. They haven't even detected what causes these effects. The exposure experiments were a matter of shooting blind. They found nothing, of course." He makes a gesture of distaste. "If you want my opinion, we should scrub the experiments. The artifact's effects on salarians are well-tracked. Two hundred and forty hours' exposure on typical work cycles or ninety-six hours continuous exposure to first observable effects. The artifact has been isolated on its own station -- a lystheni model flown out specifically for the task. I suggest hooking it to a tug and dragging it into the Sikel primary."
"Definitely a strong contender," you say grimacing. "I'll consider it." You sigh. "And what else do we have to handle?"
"Well, there is the rest of Sikel. The Dalatrass did not neglect the other artifacts. Her efforts, however, were primarily archival in nature. Moving the artifacts was one thing, but cataloging them is quite another. They moved the artifacts in seven years by focusing on quite literally nothing else. They made planetfall, picked up whatever they could grab, and left immediately. The result was a backlog which quickly overwhelmed the staff. They have barely begun to inventory what they have. Once we get a proper set of teams in there, with proper and open support, we will find it easier, but it will be quite some time. Apparently, the ruins on SO 4 were remarkably well-preserved, before the Lystheni came."
"Big old question mark, got it," you say, grimacing. "The other sites?"
"Also Precursor. The Lystheni apparently selected preferentially for particularly dense concentrations of research sites. One is something the Lystheni have classified as an orbital shipyard above a barely-habitable planet. The other is a subterranean city on a world even less habitable. Much easier projects than Sikel."
You nod. "I look forward to reviewing the proposals." You sigh. "Thank you for your time, Durrahe."
"My pleasure, Prime Minister," he says.
Research sites identified. Two high-quality research sites on/around colonized worlds (Morael/Sumak colonies). One top-tier research system (Sikel). All sites now Virmirean property; Sikel annexed whole cloth along with the remainder of the Lystheni Border Zone. Lystheni researchers allowed supervised access through government programs ensuring cooperative personalities. Puppeted the Reorganized Lystheni Colonies. Implementation of various measures to follow; option available next year under Stewardship.
The artifact that became the object of such fascination to the previous two Dalatrasses must now be judged. What do you intend to do with the cursed thing?
[ ] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.
[ ] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productively study it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisit experiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.
[ ] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
[ ] Continue full experimentation. While the Lystheni's direction of research was utter madness, they weren't wrong about the sheer potential of this artifact. If it can be invented once, it can be invented again -- and you'd like to know if there's a countermeasure. Authorize a full and proper team, and tell them to get you answers.
APPROVAL VOTING. TWO-HOUR MORATORIUM. THIS VOTE HAS NOW CLOSED.
Quick vote for this one, and we'll get onto the second event. Welcome back, folks!
[] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
[ ] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.
[ ] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productively study it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisit experiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.
Leaning towards putting it in the sun, but may be convinced to put it on ice.
Anything that forcibly changes someone's personality is a big no no in my book, and I honestly can't think of any ethical way to use such a thing.
I do not think we are advance enough to research it or will be for centuries or longer. Also I am worried leaving them on ice will mean someone get ahold of them or they somehow infect the people to take care of them.
[ ] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in thismadness.
I'd put it on ice; IC, there's no guarantee this is the only artifact with this ability, while OOC, we know indoctrination is not only a thing, it's one of the primary tools the Reapers use to harvest organic life.
And that's not even addressing the Leviathans, which are still kicking around the galaxy somewhere.
[ ] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.
Yeah let's not open a box of insanity and enslavement. Chuck it into the sun and look at less risky projects.
