Magna Graecia: Victory's Children (A City State Quest)

[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.

[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.

[X] Kallias should be sent to the Sicilian Greek Cities to forge an alliance with them against Syrakousai, convincing them to enter the war in Sicily.

McLuvin said:

The youth are foolish and arrogant. If a domesticated hound howls and yaps ceaselessly, refuses to learn to do as bid and fouls inside the house do you reward it?

Make the youth learn wisdom and patience, they insult the cities heroes, question Herodion over his position as Strategos after having fought, not commanded, in one battle. If Obader was half as brave as he is loud and eloquent I would have seen him amongst the cavalry that won the battle under Herodions guidance. Or perhaps he might have held the line and not had to be saved by ones such as I.

The youth are fools. Giving fools unearned victories instead of lessons on how not to be foolish is itself the sign of a fool. Teach these young ones, don't coddle them.

Heroes built this city. Heroes live within it. Why should heroes step forward unless they are rewarded? Why should people feel pride in their city unless they remember tales of their cities heroes? Why do new heroes step forward if not due to inspiration from those who came before?

Do not rob the city of its heroes because of a loud mouthed boy.

So Speaks Mikeletos.

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Die Forelle said:

[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.

I am Timaios, son of Philippos, a young man myself and a peer to Obandros, but I feel I must argue against his position. For to honor the dead who themselves have given their lives for the honor of this polis is pious, and pleasing to the gods, to gray-eyed Athena and shining Apollon. And to leave the graves of our heroes merely to what wealth they held at death is misguided to me. Is it to be such that the poor who show arete are then to be given merely the graves of paupers?

We all are the sons of Eretria, sons of liberty, is it so wrong that we honor the heroic dead among us?

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We do not disrespect our heros. We have always celebrated the great deeds of our people, and this has always been enough to motivate more of them to rise. But to establish an official honor for heros is to officially proclaim some men to not be heroic. Herodion or Draco need fear no such fate, but what about, say, Eutropios, who undoubtedly has many supporters but also many who remember the shame he once brought upon the city.

racnor said:

We do not disrespect our heros. We have always celebrated the great deeds of our people, and this has always been enough to motivate more of them to rise. But to establish an official honor for heros is to officially proclaim some men to not be heroic. Herodion or Draco need fear no such fate, but what about, say, Eutropios, who undoubtedly has many supporters but also many who remember the shame he once brought upon the city.

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Many have forgotten much of Eutropios, and those who remember oft recall first his hubris and the near defeat he brought down on Invincible Eretria.

Mayhaps if he had been officially honoured for his long service to the city and great love of it, more would remember his greater and more heroic deeds?

Preventing us from fully remembering the deeds of our great men, only creates more Eurtropios', not less. It does not matter if some are honoured above others, for surely there are greater heroes, Herakles above Diomedes, Akhilles above Patrokles, as long as they are properly remembered, instead of left to wallow as a memory that can be warped and twisted by time. Until like Eutropios who you so worry about, only their shame and failures, instead of their Arete remain.

Remember our heroes as they were, not as a shadow of what our minds can recall.

So speaks Mikeletos.

McLuvin said:

Many have forgotten much of Eutropios, and those who remember oft recall first his hubris and the near defeat he brought down on Invincible Eretria.

Mayhaps if he had been officially honoured for his long service to the city and great love of it, more would remember his greater and more heroic deeds?

Preventing us from fully remembering the deeds of our great men, only creates more Eurtropios', not less. It does not matter if some are honoured above others, for surely there are greater heroes, Herakles above Diomedes, Akhilles above Patrokles, as long as they are properly remembered, instead of left to wallow as a memory that can be warped and twisted by time. Until like Eutropios who you so worry about, only their shame and failures, instead of their Arete remain.

Remember our heroes as they were, not as a shadow of what our minds can recall.

So speaks Mikeletos.

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Eurtropios's present situation is not the problem, and indeed his fate is only an example of the danger of this proposal. No matter where we set the standard for one to become a hero, and no matter how faithfully the deeds of our people are remembered, there will always be some who are a contentious choice for the cemetery. Surely there is a better way to honor our heros than this!

McLuvin said:

Many have forgotten much of Eutropios, and those who remember oft recall first his hubris and the near defeat he brought down on Invincible Eretria.

Mayhaps if he had been officially honoured for his long service to the city and great love of it, more would remember his greater and more heroic deeds?

Preventing us from fully remembering the deeds of our great men, only creates more Eurtropios', not less. It does not matter if some are honoured above others, for surely there are greater heroes, Herakles above Diomedes, Akhilles above Patrokles, as long as they are properly remembered, instead of left to wallow as a memory that can be warped and twisted by time. Until like Eutropios who you so worry about, only their shame and failures, instead of their Arete remain.

Remember our heroes as they were, not as a shadow of what our minds can recall.

So speaks Mikeletos.

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It's Eustarchus, not Eutropios. Eustarchus was the patriotic strategoi who gave us that botched battle. Eutropios is the former Olympic champion and Herodion's BFF, and is still around.

[X] No, he is a weakling who cannot hold his post among his fellows. Better a strong man who does not like Eretria than a weak one who does.
[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.
[X] Kallias should be sent to Lykai to investigate rumors of a Korinthian Conspiracy against Eretria Eskhata potentially involving the Tarentines, Liburni, and Dauni.

racnor said:

Eurtropios's present situation is not the problem, and indeed his fate is only an example of the danger of this proposal. No matter where we set the standard for one to become a hero, and no matter how faithfully the deeds of our people are remembered, there will always be some who are a contentious choice for the cemetery. Surely there is a better way to honor our heros than this!

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Then suggest it. Do not continue to act righteous if you cannot think of a way to fix a problem. A solution that is flawed is better than no solution at all, when the problem causes great issues and questions to be raised.

To question is your right, but to belittle and degrade when you have no better ideas, to propose to risk forgeting our heroes and their deeds for the sake of a possible better choice in the future is a foolish choice. Go join your fellows with the bull runners. Foolish youth. I will honour the heroes we can in the way we can to the best of my ability. Rather than lose the details to time. No matter how flawed a system I must use.

So speaks Mikeletos.

Stealthy said:

It's Eustarchus, not Eutropios. Eustarchus was the patriotic strategoi who gave us that botched battle. Eutropios is the former Olympic champion and Herodion's BFF, and is still around.

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I went with the name used by the guy I was debating. Soz.

McLuvin said:

I went with the name used by the guy I was debating. Soz.

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You used the name but not the example. The issue of Eutropios's previous disgrace is still just as relevant.

McLuvin said:

Then suggest it. Do not continue to act righteous if you cannot think of a way to fix a problem. A solution that is flawed is better than no solution at all, when the problem causes great issues and questions to be raised.

To question is your right, but to belittle and degrade when you have no better ideas, to propose to risk forgeting our heroes and their deeds for the sake of a possible better choice in the future is a foolish choice. Go join your fellows with the bull runners. Foolish youth. I will honour the heroes we can in the way we can to the best of my ability. Rather than lose the details to time. No matter how flawed a system I must use.

So speaks Mikeletos.

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I say again that this solution is worse than the status quo. Eustarchus, to use your own confused example, would surely have been remembered better in the cemetery... IF he was allowed to be buried there. What if the citizens had instead, in their grief, chosen to refuse him entry for his final defeat?

racnor said:

What if the citizens had instead, in their grief, chosen to refuse him entry for his final defeat?

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Do you not remember how before many citizens recognised his love and dedication of to Eretria? His death was due to Hubris and that is all many remember but immediately after his death many remembered him somewhat fondly as an Eretrian patriot. The fact that is not entirely the case now is due to the fact that he was given no edifice.

You say the status quo is better than a solution. I say no. I say that we need to remember our heroes, placing some above others is natural, even if one wants to force false equality on all things, ignoring that some are greater than others in their deeds one cannot forget that our history has to be commemorated in some fashion. Lest we forget.

We built our laws on precedence because we knew how to learn from the past. Leaving commemoration to oral tradition and tall tales is not learning from the past. It is leaving it to rot.

All great lessons are learned from the past, all men aspire to learn from the histories of Homer and avoid the mistakes that led to the downfalls of greater men. Denying Eretrians a way to look back on the past and see the successes, failures and histories of those who built the city will deny them the ability to learn from them.

Even if some are elevated above others, so what? I said before that some heroes are greater than others. You cannot change this, and the lesser heroes would be forgotten anyway should you get your way, at least this way they have a chance to be remembered.

Let the city have its heroes. Do not deprive it of its shining examples and lessons from the past in a desire to show all men are equal.

They are not.

There are heroes, men better than their peers, Herodion, Drako, Antipater, Kallias, Ambrosius. All these men are examples to follow. Forcing equality by preventing the details of their life from being recorded is foolish.

So speaks Mikeletos


OOC: look I get you might not like the idea. But this is the chance to get some historical records going. Right now we have mainly outside historians and our legal records to show our history. Some of that won't survive and the rest won't show the full details or our version of events.

If we want to record our early history. These memorials our are best chance. Also they will inspire more people to try and step up, serving to inspire future generations. Don't deprive us of this. History has to be remembered and cultural heroes can help build a nation.

The idea of making a cemetry for both our heroes AND our failures, to serve as a memorial to both the highs and the lows of Eretria's past, sounds appealing to me. Not sure if that would be something possible in Classical Greece, were failure often led to banishment? @Cetashwayo

[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.

When his generals sneered at our Ekdromoi, he was intrigued instead. When others dismissed our Peuketii vassals, he proved capable of admiring the skill of our, Eretrian, barbaroi, noticing their undeniable superiority to the natives our enemies subjugated. When his generals, heedless of the ways of war, caring more for their loot than our cause, were disgruntled with the lack of looting of the lands of Lokri, Lykos instead saw the wisdom of Herodion's plans and made sure his Greeks followed them.

You say that he's a weakling? Ha! If I were to choose who was to carry shield and spear next to me, a formidable warrior that cares more about personal glory or, worse yet, using the battle to enact his petty revenge, or a weakling who I can be certain will do his best to defend me, just as I would do to him, then I would be proud to call the latter my brother in arms!

[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.

What makes us Greeks? You may say, it is the blood, our heritage. How the people, born in one of the great Greek cities, formed a union under the benign gaze of the gods, our gods, which finally resulted in us. You wouldn't be wrong. Others may answer, it is the Greek way of things that permeates our society and differenciates us from the barbaroi, as the walk of the stallion differs from that of a donkey. The way we fight, proud, unyielding, united by our city, our gods, our language. The way we speak, distinct, structured, compelling, purposeful, unlike that of anyone else in the whole world. The careful, calculated, yet confident way, we build our homes, shields, our dramas. They wouldn't be wrong either.

However, let's ask ourselves, what allowed us all of this? What allowed us to become Greeks?

The tradition. Our knowledge and respect for history, for that, which has long since 'died'. The barbaroi won't tell you about their great heroes of old. They won't remember. The barbaroi won't create cities as grand as ours, or turn mere parchment into a source of catharsis, capable of moving even the most stern men to the core. They lack the generations, upon generations of masters to show them how. They lack men whose arete is so great, that they still remain our tutors, even from beyond Styx. It is because of them, that we can be proud to call ourselves Greeks. It is because we still revere them and their teachings, that we can stand head and shoulders above the barbaroi.

You would be right to note that what is in the past is not always to be repeated. To that I say, this is what our Greek tradition already teaches! We change, and the change becomes the tradition, one just as important as that which preceeded it. Didn't Aeschylus defy it introducing the deuteragonist? Yet now it is firmly a part of our plays, one nobody of sound mind would rescind! It is why we have philosophers, those who, while drinking deeply from the chalice of wisdom of our forefathers, constantly seek ways to add to it, and remove the bitter ingredients, mistakenly placed there at some point in time.

This is why I have to congratulate you, Obander, for voicing your imaginative opinions with the confidence befitting of a true Greek, as well as your inquisitive spirit. However, I have to advice you not to dismiss the past so easily. How can one be certain, that they surpassed the prior and achieved something new, if one doesn't learn of and appreciate the achievements of the old?

Finally, Obander, I heard you brilliantly speaking of the future in Rhegion. I listened to your dreams of a great, shining, unmatched Eretria! We stand united in that dream. So help us make this dream come true, one day! Help our greatest heroes, Eretrians of any background and wealth, be eternally united by their love of this greatest city and, together, help whip up the fires of arete among all future generations, so that our beloved city can become a blinding sun of what it means to be Greek, what it means to be Eretrian, one whose flames will keep growing brighter and hotter with every new hero celebratedon this cemetary!

For it is is only with their guiding light, that Eretria Eskhata can avoid the mistakes of old, and, supported by their example of the past, build something truly, splendidly new!

Thus, the young Davius, veteran of his first campaign, went off his humble, small rock.

[X] Kallias should be sent to the Sicilian Greek Cities to forge an alliance with them against Syrakousai, convincing them to enter the war in Sicily.

[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.
[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.
[X] Kallias should be sent to Lykai to investigate rumors of a Korinthian Conspiracy against EretriaEskhata potentially involving the Tarentines, Liburni, and Dauni.

[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.
[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.

I think that there is a risk that our continued support of Lykos might backfire if he loses/gets replaced but I hope that this isn't the case and having a friend in "command" of the biggest allied force in the region seems worth the risk. And a hero shrine/graveyard is just to neat to ignore, at least in my opinion.

[X] Kallias should be sent to the Phoenician cities to gain fleets, mercenaries and wealth beyond Greek imagining, to be levied against Syrakousai.

I don't think that any of Kallias options is bad and I favour this is on mostly because to me its possible long term consequences are the most interesting ones. A stronger phoenician presence on sicily has the potential to derail quite a bit of history and from a more pragmatic standpoint I am interested to see what the possible benefits a closer relationship with the phoenicians might be (they are famed shipbuilders and traders after-all and that is exactly the thing I think many of us want to focus on in the near to medium future).

[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.
[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.
[X] Kallias should be sent to the Sicilian Greek Cities to forge an alliance with them against Syrakousai, convincing them to enter the war in Sicily.

Spacegnom said:

The idea of making a cemetry for both our heroes AND our failures, to serve as a memorial to both the highs and the lows of Eretria's past, sounds appealing to me. Not sure if that would be something possible in Classical Greece, were failure often led to banishment? @Cetashwayo

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No, it's not culturally possible.

[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.
[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.
[X] Kallias should be sent to Lykai to investigate rumors of a Korinthian Conspiracy againstEretria Eskhata potentially involving theTarentines, Liburni, and Dauni.

[X] No, he is a weakling who cannot hold his post among his fellows. Better a strong man who does not like Eretria than a weak one who does.
[X] All have a place in Eretria, and we must not worship the dead. There cannot be any discrimination in the graves of the dead beyond the wealth of the individual.
[X] Kallias should be sent to the Sicilian Greek Cities to forge an alliance with them against Syrakousai, convincing them to enter the war in Sicily.

[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.
[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.
[X] Kallias should be sent to Lykai to investigate rumors of a Korinthian Conspiracy against Eretria Eskhata potentially involving the Tarentines, Liburni, and Dauni.

I am certainly loving the speeches

Dawiusz said:

Finally, Obander, I heard you brilliantly speaking of the future in Rhegion. I listened to your dreams of a great, shining, unmatched Eretria! We stand united in that dream. So help us make this dream come true, one day! Help our greatest heroes, Eretrians of any background and wealth, be eternally united by their love of this greatest city and, together, help whip up the fires of arete among all future generations, so that our beloved city can become a blinding sun of what it means to be Greek, what it means to be Eretrian, one whose flames will keep growing brighter and hotter with every new hero celebrated on this cemetary!

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OBANDER: To be sure, the dream must come true, no one doubts that, it is the destiny and the ultimate requirement of this city. And to be sure, the pursuit of arete, the pursuit of excellence to which all men are accustomed is something that must drive the people of this city. And yet the cost of heroes must be weighed, too. It is important for all free men to consider that our past can weigh down on the present and prevent us from comprehending what lies before us. All Greeks believe that the past is what must be called to for the sake of the present, but what does fair Akhilles have to teach us about Italia? New ways of war, new ways of living, new ways of politics and the rule of the people are wholly unique in the histories and stories of all Hellenes. To say that we must constantly be looking backwards at an accumulating and collecting cavalcade of heroes will one day doom the heroes of our future to irrelevence, for they will compare themselves, and our whole polis will compare ourselves, to Herodion and Drako and not be spirited but find them wanting, that conclusion is one I do not find an excellent one. If they are worth the hearing of history, their arete undoubted, then they shall be remembered naturally through their deeds and imprints on the city, and not grand, expensive edifices.

Die Forelle said:

I am Timaios, son of Philippos, a young man myself and a peer to Obandros, but I feel I must argue against his position. For to honor the dead who themselves have given their lives for the honor of this polis is pious, and pleasing to the gods, to gray-eyed Athena and shining Apollon. And to leave the graves of our heroes merely to what wealth they held at death is misguided to me. Is it to be such that the poor who show arete are then to be given merely the graves of paupers?

We all are the sons of Eretria, sons of liberty, is it so wrong that we honor the heroic dead among us?

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OBANDER: And yet it is the Gods who judge men, not gravestones. A man is not distinguished by the stone which he has been placed under but by the deeds he has done as a living man, and how the Gods have judged those deeds as he passes. I do not mean to speak ill of the poor, for I am poor, have always been poor, but I educated myself through the assistance of friends and comrades, and I have learned how to speak with their aid. I simply believe that the poor shall be remembered not by the grandness of their graves but by the greatness of their deeds, and to dedicate to them a space of worship would be to place in place of the Gods, and in place of living men, these ghosts which will haunt our city and taunt its achievements with the feeling of failure and incompleteness.

McLuvin said:

Make the youth learn wisdom and patience, they insult the cities heroes, question Herodion over his position as Strategos after having fought, not commanded, in one battle. If Obader was half as brave as he is loud and eloquent I would have seen him amongst the cavalry that won the battle under Herodions guidance. Or perhaps he might have held the line and not had to be saved by ones such as I.

The youth are fools. Giving fools unearned victories instead of lessons on how not to be foolish is itself the sign of a fool. Teach these young ones, don't coddle them.

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OBANDER: Would that I had a horse, but I am a poor, foolish boy, with neither the legs for riding or the money for land. I understand that sometimes the old are frail in hearing or sight, but would it behoove you, before you insult me- a poor foolish boy- to observe that there are significant divisions between the poor and the rich, and that these divisions create significant gaps? I fought fairly in the battle against the Krotonians, I saved my fellow who was nearly cut down by the cruel tip of a spear, and slew two of them. I do not ask for acknowledgement of my glory, for Herodion surely bested me in that respect, but merely that my oratory and my points are respected as a citizen of the city. As for the rest of your flurry of words I have little to say except that to insult the young is to insult the future of the city, and the barring that the old deliver to everyone who is not old enough to grow a gray beard will cause much that is deleterious to our city. I do not ask to remove the old, but for them to acknowledge that just because we have not reached an age that they consider "wise", that we are foolish. When Herodion was first appointed he was in the prime of his youth. Drako fought in Eretria at a similar age, and they have grown old in office, some to their fiftieth year. To be sure, it is an argument to be had that we must wait in line for "our" turn, but surely it is a twisted polis which denies an entire generation any representation of its own position within the larger government. We have grown up in Italia and been molded by its precepts, and yet we are called foolish and told to grow up, as if by eating some fantastic seed or nymph's ambrosia I can sprout another ten years, a beard, and a gaggle of children.

I don't think so. But then, well. I am just a poor foolish boy.

McLuvin said:

OOC: look I get you might not like the idea. But this is the chance to get some historical records going. Right now we have mainly outside historians and our legal records to show our history. Some of that won't survive and the rest won't show the full details or our version of events.

If we want to record our early history. These memorials our are best chance. Also they will inspire more people to try and step up, serving to inspire future generations. Don't deprive us of this. History has to be remembered and cultural heroes can help build a nation.

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Slightly improved historical records seems like a very intangible benefit to counterbalance the far more concrete discord it's going to cause when controversial people die.

Hear hear! What is a great man to the gods but another gift to our city, what use is it to bless the vessel and not the gods for their patronage of fair Eretria! Where one man has performed great deeds may more be raised by the god's blessings may we hold a truly great feast for those who the god's have sent us as they depart for the Elysian Fields and let them rest with the others of the city.

Tldr. Gib priests mo' monies for a state religious funeral festival at every great man's death ;P

Tally:

Cetashwayo said:

I am certainly loving the speeches



OBANDER: To be sure, the dream must come true, no one doubts that, it is the destiny and the ultimate requirement of this city. And to be sure, the pursuit of arete, the pursuit of excellence to which all men are accustomed is something that must drive the people of this city. And yet the cost of heroes must be weighed, too. It is important for all free men to consider that our past can weigh down on the present and prevent us from comprehending what lies before us. All Greeks believe that the past is what must be called to for the sake of the present, but what does fair Akhilles have to teach us about Italia? New ways of war, new ways of living, new ways of politics and the rule of the people are wholly unique in the histories and stories of all Hellenes. To say that we must constantly be looking backwards at an accumulating and collecting cavalcade of heroes will one day doom the heroes of our future to irrelevence, for they will compare themselves, and our whole polis will compare ourselves, to Herodion and Drako and not be spirited but find them wanting, that conclusion is one I do not find an excellent one. If they are worth the hearing of history, their arete undoubted, then they shall be remembered naturally through their deeds and imprints on the city, and not grand, expensive edifices.



OBANDER: And yet it is the Gods who judge men, not gravestones. A man is not distinguished by the stone which he has been placed under but by the deeds he has done as a living man, and how the Gods have judged those deeds as he passes. I do not mean to speak ill of the poor, for I am poor, have always been poor, but I educated myself through the assistance of friends and comrades, and I have learned how to speak with their aid. I simply believe that the poor shall be remembered not by the grandness of their graves but by the greatness of their deeds, and to dedicate to them a space of worship would be to place in place of the Gods, and in place of living men, these ghosts which will haunt our city and taunt its achievements with the feeling of failure and incompleteness.



OBANDER: Would that I had a horse, but I am a poor, foolish boy, with neither the legs for riding or the money for land. I understand that sometimes the old are frail in hearing or sight, but would it behoove you, before you insult me- a poor foolish boy- to observe that there are significant divisions between the poor and the rich, and that these divisions create significant gaps? I fought fairly in the battle against the Krotonians, I saved my fellow who was nearly cut down by the cruel tip of a spear, and slew two of them. I do not ask for acknowledgement of my glory, for Herodion surely bested me in that respect, but merely that my oratory and my points are respected as a citizen of the city. As for the rest of your flurry of words I have little to say except that to insult the young is to insult the future of the city, and the barring that the old deliver to everyone who is not old enough to grow a gray beard will cause much that is deleterious to our city. I do not ask to remove the old, but for them to acknowledge that just because we have not reached an age that they consider "wise", that we are foolish. When Herodion was first appointed he was in the prime of his youth. Drako fought in Eretria at a similar age, and they have grown old in office, some to their fiftieth year. To be sure, it is an argument to be had that we must wait in line for "our" turn, but surely it is a twisted polis which denies an entire generation any representation of its own position within the larger government. We have grown up in Italia and been molded by its precepts, and yet we are called foolish and told to grow up, as if by eating some fantastic seed or nymph's ambrosia I can sprout another ten years, a beard, and a gaggle of children.

I don't think so. But then, well. I am just a poor foolish boy.

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Obander is far too inexperienced and hot headed, far too eager to make a name for himself or stand out. He lacks common sense and forethought and is extremely arrogant in his actions. A dangerous man, who should be prevented from being anywhere near an official source of power until he is humbled and taught to cage his Hubris.

But hot damn! By the Divine Union that boy can talk!

He challenged my points on youths, which would score him points in his main support base and tried to tie it to patriotism and love of the cities heroes. All whilst he ignored the thrust where I talked about what heroes mean and why they should be honoured and how he disrespected them. Which he actually can't argue against properly.

If he used the intellect needed for those speeches and added some wisdom and temperance he'd be a fine leader.

Hopefully the flat out rejection of his proposals that seem to be happening will humble him.

[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.

It is better to have a man we know than the next one that has stated that he will do great harm to us from such a lowly position.

[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.

The young man may mean well, but this is a form of immortality for those that had done the greatest service to our fair city regardless of class and origins.

Let their graves serve as a beacon of inspiration to all.

[X] Kallias should be sent to Lykai to investigate rumors of a Korinthian Conspiracy against Eretria Eskhata potentially involving the Tarentines, Liburni, and Dauni.

In this decision Alexandros sighs in tiredness. As much as he would want to help his fellow Ionian, all would be voided if Eretria is scattered to the four winds and her fair city divided as spoils to the enemy unknown. The enemy within is a much more palatable prospect than this shadowy arm of Hecate.

FUCK Leontios.

FUCK Kerkyra.

FUCK Liburnians.

Cetashwayo said:

I am certainly loving the speeches



OBANDER: To be sure, the dream must come true, no one doubts that, it is the destiny and the ultimate requirement of this city. And to be sure, the pursuit of arete, the pursuit of excellence to which all men are accustomed is something that must drive the people of this city. And yet the cost of heroes must be weighed, too. It is important for all free men to consider that our past can weigh down on the present and prevent us from comprehending what lies before us. All Greeks believe that the past is what must be called to for the sake of the present, but what does fair Akhilles have to teach us about Italia? New ways of war, new ways of living, new ways of politics and the rule of the people are wholly unique in the histories and stories of all Hellenes. To say that we must constantly be looking backwards at an accumulating and collecting cavalcade of heroes will one day doom the heroes of our future to irrelevence, for they will compare themselves, and our whole polis will compare ourselves, to Herodion and Drako and not be spirited but find them wanting, that conclusion is one I do not find an excellent one. If they are worth the hearing of history, their arete undoubted, then they shall be remembered naturally through their deeds and imprints on the city, and not grand, expensive edifices.



OBANDER: And yet it is the Gods who judge men, not gravestones. A man is not distinguished by the stone which he has been placed under but by the deeds he has done as a living man, and how the Gods have judged those deeds as he passes. I do not mean to speak ill of the poor, for I am poor, have always been poor, but I educated myself through the assistance of friends and comrades, and I have learned how to speak with their aid. I simply believe that the poor shall be remembered not by the grandness of their graves but by the greatness of their deeds, and to dedicate to them a space of worship would be to place in place of the Gods, and in place of living men, these ghosts which will haunt our city and taunt its achievements with the feeling of failure and incompleteness.



OBANDER: Would that I had a horse, but I am a poor, foolish boy, with neither the legs for riding or the money for land. I understand that sometimes the old are frail in hearing or sight, but would it behoove you, before you insult me- a poor foolish boy- to observe that there are significant divisions between the poor and the rich, and that these divisions create significant gaps? I fought fairly in the battle against the Krotonians, I saved my fellow who was nearly cut down by the cruel tip of a spear, and slew two of them. I do not ask for acknowledgement of my glory, for Herodion surely bested me in that respect, but merely that my oratory and my points are respected as a citizen of the city. As for the rest of your flurry of words I have little to say except that to insult the young is to insult the future of the city, and the barring that the old deliver to everyone who is not old enough to grow a gray beard will cause much that is deleterious to our city. I do not ask to remove the old, but for them to acknowledge that just because we have not reached an age that they consider "wise", that we are foolish. When Herodion was first appointed he was in the prime of his youth. Drako fought in Eretria at a similar age, and they have grown old in office, some to their fiftieth year. To be sure, it is an argument to be had that we must wait in line for "our" turn, but surely it is a twisted polis which denies an entire generation any representation of its own position within the larger government. We have grown up in Italia and been molded by its precepts, and yet we are called foolish and told to grow up, as if by eating some fantastic seed or nymph's ambrosia I can sprout another ten years, a beard, and a gaggle of children.

I don't think so. But then, well. I am just a poor foolish boy.

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We all need to keep an eye on this boy, for when he becomes a man he'll be a great one. Until then he needs to learn to answer questions, instead of playing to a crowd as though he was in a play. What of Heroes I ask? What of my questions upon them? Where did you address them child?

Boy, life is not a tale or game or show. It is not about speeches, it is about heroes and the bloody paths they leave in their wake. Eretria is founded in Blood. It is founded on Bones. Built by Heroes. Great Men are it's lifeblood, and they must be respected and learned from properly.

Mayhaps you will one day be amongst them, and I think you would rather like to have people remember you, aspire to be like you and learn from you to make the city even greater. To become a part of Eretria's heart and blood as Antipater will.

I sincerely hope your defeat here humbles you. You'd be dangerous beyond belief without that Hubris.

Until then boy, I suggest you buy a horse, take one of mine if you must, if you are half as good a rider as you are a speaker and as good with a spear as you claim then I rather think you'll be entertaining to fight alongside when you are a man and not a boy.

And I do admit I'd like to see that.

So speaks Mikeletos.