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Even Further Beyond [Complete]

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Origami Clock said:
Yes, but we will have still won. Once that happens, we can discuss our own interests and decide upon the choice that has majority support. You are still conflating all of the individual desires of members of the group with the aim of the group overall. Our aim is to make Vault win, no more, and no less, just as yours is to attempt to make Pampliset the chosen option.
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Arguments are also a benefit for deciding what wins. You guys ultimately weaken your own argument power as you argue for the versitility but are stuck on what to actually choose, whilst we can take each argument of yours one at a time and, in most cases, prove the superiority of ours, or at least make a solid argument against it.
 
Origami Clock said:
Yes, but we will have still won. Once that happens, we can discuss our own interests and decide upon the choice that has majority support. You are still conflating all of the individual desires of members of the group with the aim of the group overall. Our aim is to make Vault win, no more, and no less, just as yours is to attempt to make Pampliset the chosen option.
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That's not a fair strategy. You're conflating multiple objectives which are mutually exclusive with one another under the same vote.

Saying we can achieve Combat Vault, Phylactery of the Empires and Monster Vault at the same time, for example, strikes me as disingenuous.
 
Shard said:
Splitting the functions of the vault means your vault is ultimately crappier than it otherwise could be.

If you settle on a single function, you could get something really awesomesauce. But tacking on everything just means your vault fulfills them all at 'eh' levels.
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As i've already explained it to you(phrase i'm using with worrying frequency when trying to communicate with you), we don't need to get most out of each category. We don't need Size higher than 7, or Hab higher than 5. As we need merely enough, we can afford to accomplish multiple goals at relatively small cost.
 
[X] Tomb of the Netherine
[X] Vault of the Ur-Pharaoh

A flexible option which will help us no matter the option chosen, doesn't cause us to lose one of the main benefits of lichdom, and may eventually provide us with bigger gains than even a 2.2x multiplier. If it's truly necessary, we can temporarily choose a combat vault then correct it with FB later, or even just take the increased risk for a better future investment, which is what I'd prefer. I still think Tomb of the Netherine is crucial of accumulating advantages unseen by Zang Kong, and that the Elves can probably wait.

I really wouldn't think Palimpset is very good right now. And people say it's EFB apparently makes us totally immune to Fate, which just isn't true. The flexibility and options raised by the Vault just seem so much more valuable.
 
Wolfy said:
As i've already explained it to you(phrase i'm using with worrying frequency when trying to communicate with you), we don't need to get most out of each category. We don't need Size higher than 7, or Hab higher than 5. As we need merely enough, we can afford to accomplish multiple goals at relatively small cost.
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You are making the artifact weaker than it should be by trying to fulfill everything in a mediocre manner.

Mission creep is a thing.
 
Shard said:
That's not a fair strategy. You're conflating multiple objectives which are mutually exclusive with one another under the same vote.

Saying we can achieve Combat Vault, Phylactery of the Empires and Monster Vault at the same time, for example, strikes me as disingenuous.
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I'm not saying that, I'm saying that people who want to achieve those things have no choice but voting for Vault, which means that there are multiple reasons why individuals are voting for Vault.

There is no homogeneous mass of vault voters, there are multiple groups that want what may be mutually exclusive things, but have no choice but support the same option. So yes, this vote is not fair, but not because we want all the things, but because a vault vote is acting as a proxy for multiple distinct options not representated in the polling data.
 
BrainInAJar said:
[X] Tomb of the Netherine
[X] Vault of the Ur-Pharaoh

A flexible option which will help us no matter the option chosen, doesn't cause us to lose one of the main benefits of lichdom, and may eventually provide us with bigger gains than even a 2.2x multiplier. If it's truly necessary, we can temporarily choose a combat vault then correct it with FB later, or even just take the increased risk for a better future investment, which is what I'd prefer. I still think Tomb of the Netherine is crucial of accumulating advantages unseen by Zang Kong, and that the Elves can probably wait.

I really wouldn't think Palimpset is very good right now. And people say it's EFB apparently makes us totally immune to Fate, which just isn't true. The flexibility and options raised by the Vault just seem so much more valuable.
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I should point out that going FB apparently won't let us change configurations after creation - we can only add more points, not change what points are assigned or what those points mean. So we can't go from a combat Vault to a monster farming Vault without compromising the latter's efficiency.
 
A Beyond Vault in a single thing (Like Empire or Monster Farming) is going to be better than the Further Beyond Frankenstein Vault that is currently being proposed.
 
Shard said:
A Beyond Vault in a single thing (Like Empire or Monster Farming) is going to be better than the Further Beyond Frankenstein Vault that is currently being proposed.
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I think if we go Vault the Monster Vault thing sounds decent, but the others are too long term with little strength gain. I would prefer a Vault optimised for kaiju production over all else- Terrascape kaiju dragons were super cool, and they were grown in a Vault-equivalent.
 
Single purpose Vault is possible with Beyond Vault.

Dual-Purpose Vault, such as Monster+Combat, is possible with Further Beyond Vault (this version dumps Security stat).

Triple-Purpose Vault is not possible with Further Beyond + Titanic artifact, period. It might be possible with Further Beyond and Titanic+ artifact after we go up in Cultivation stages.
 
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I think Rihaku's already writing the update.

Time for another build vote on which of 7 different Vaults we want! Hoorah.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
I mean, more possible BP generation? Hooray?
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I was really hoping to see Nameless as one of the war-gods thrown down by the divinities in long past. The image of his being an avatar of vengeance was just so evoking.

Also, it would evade having another build vote on what exactly the Vault should be - I don't see any consensus among Vault voters over what the Vault ought to be like.
 
I feel the that despite the Tomb not being in the lead vote-wise, it's had much more argumentation for it, hopefully enough to overcome a couple of votes.

We can also just have a build vote alongside Tomb approach planning.
 
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What happened to all the voters who went for Tyranshal's Amplifaction (Beyond) anyway?

:|
 
Possible Vault configurations Rihaku mentioned earlier.
Proto-Arcology

Hab 5
Access 2
Sign 5
Size 5
Sec 3

You'd have to Go Further Beyond in order to get Sec to 5, but it serves as a decent Arcology-esque pocket dimension with nice Hab to mitigate Spoiled and access to Sign effects. This provides a good setup for a theoretically optimal monster-farming Vault (Hab 5 / Sign 5 / Size 5) in the future. The Cultivation benefits are only modest now that you have the Chronoreactor, but they're something. Alternatively you could go something like this:

Subspace Fortress

Hab 4
Access 5
Sign 1
Size 5
Sec 5

This has the flexibility to become a Phylactery of Empires with just an Artifact, but can also be upgraded with Further Beyond to 4/5/5/5/5 for superb versatility. It can also serve as a combat vault in the here and now with Access 5 / Sec 5. A Sec 5 Indestructible-type Vault anchor also gives you "armor" where the runes are placed on Nameless' torso, and makes the Vault far more practical for storing Grand Diagrams. If you are fully committed to immediate power you could even go something like this:

Final Sanctum

Hab 2
Access 5
Sign 5
Size 3
Sec 5

And transition back to a flexible Hab 4 / Size 5 build upon going Further Beyond. This would give you access to basically the full array of combat Vault functions, giving you some combat-speed Utility effects that don't require direct Diagram casting. You have the bodily strength of a Titan but no Reality Effects so far, so this could help patch that hole in your capabilities while retaining long-term versatility. Reflect or absorb enemy attacks by opening portals in front of them, soft-teleport by opening Sign-augmented access portals around a battlefield, etc. High Access is also really nice if you end up making Artifact weapons/armor later. With more work you could even do crazy shit like using the Time sign to freeze an enemy's intercepted attack inside to save for later.
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I'm in favor of first as it play towards Monster Vault im after, but it does have least combat potential. It's always an issue, as Monster Vault and Battle Vault prioritize opposite value.

Maybe we could try Hab 2/Access 5/Sign 5/ Size 4/Sec 5 as sort of compromise, allowing us to get 5 in Hab and Size later on? Although Monster Vault could (inefficiently) work with Hab 4.
 
I'm not too hung up on the Vault; if Palimpsest wins it'll close some doors, but passing up the Tomb of the Netherine would a real shame. It's one of the most dangerous dungeons in Southern Vane, possibly the deadliest of all. Given its reputation for killing powerful Cultivators and the difficulty of locating it, it's one of the few that hasn't been fully exploited. It resisted the magi as well, has kept the past sealed away for who knows how many Ages, waiting for the day when someone would unlock its secrets. We're the Thrice-Great, have immunity to Diagram-negating zones, the winds of Fate at our back (however galling that might be), and immortality to fall back on in the worst case scenario. Who dares, wins, and if we're going to prevail against all odds, this is the sort of risk we need to be taking.

The Tomb provides a balance of mental and physical challenges that make exploring it near-certain to generate Mastermind Points, which we badly need if we're going to get the Truth. The fact that past survivors haven't emerged with Priceless Treasures is actually encouraging to me, since it implies nobody has struck the motherload yet... or if they did, the motherload struck back. Besides, it's thematically appropriate for Nameless to go rummaging through the dustbin of history in search of exploits; intellectual curiosity is one of his defining traits. The Tomb offers "the secrets of those who have come before," a phrase we first heard from the Servant. Who knows what we could find in there? The building blocks of Cultivation, the weapons of past Dark Lords? Picking Grandfather as a mentor offered us a chance to learn the secret history of the Labyrinth Empire; the prospect of gleaning the secret history of the world is much more tantalizing.
 
BrainInAJar said:
doesn't cause us to lose one of the main benefits of lichdom
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Resurrection is hardly one of the main benefits of lichdom. Definitely not by the point where we could get EFP in Palimpsest.

If we are then killed by Kong, the heroine or the other heroes (which are the only remaining threats at that point), we will pretty much have lost either way. If we can't win the first time, succeeding after losing the artifacts and grand diagrams we carry would be pretty much impossible and that is before considering that there are titan level attacks which can prevent resurrection.
 
Agreed with Orm.

Whether or not you agree with his approach, Nameless's power is one built off the backs of Ages long past. Our opposition to the Fates has become more than just a tool to save our lives; it has become a philosophical disagreement with their entire approach. From the Diagram to the Cultivators, we have seen how the Fates love to design flawed systems and to subsequently destroy them and people of such a system for being "flawed." Moreover, they have done this for countless eons, dozens or even hundreds of Ages discarded in the dirt, all evidence of their existence wiped out.

With all these Ages, it is impossible to simply say that each Age is stronger than the last. Rather, given the monikers of Age of Truth and Age of Might, each Age had a theme, a field where it shined above all others, and it is no less than our duty to exploit these strengths. Zang Kong is no archaeologist--he will know nothing of the powers Fate has so desperately tried to erase. If Scientific Cultivation is the exploitation of hundreds of Ages of interactions despite knowing nearly nothing about such Ages, how much more potent could we be if we went directly to the source and added the strengths of these Ages to ours? We could be better at Scientific Cultivation than Zong Kang was.

EDIT: If anyone else is interested in the trade Embar just conducted, I'm also open. I like Vault much more than the Palimpsest, but I want the Tomb even more.
 
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