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Even Further Beyond [Complete]

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Corripere said:
True on the first point. It can't be only Anti-Cultivation, but there might be layered defenses? Or it could be Titan-level Guards, which does sound somewhat implausible. I think there's definitely interesting utility effects as well as cultivation multipliers greater than x2 we can find. Though, even if Zang Kong knows of our multiplier, it's not like he can just stop right now and get out of his cocoon. He's only checking in in 57 months, and if we abuse any multiplier we can find until then to get stronger than him, we should be fine. His attention is all in on his Ascension for now, so it's not like he can stop us from riding the escalation train.
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No, I meant on the secrets thing that could take Zang Kong by surprise. As long as he has access to our information he will be able to at least be aware of what we can throw at him.

Of course, being even half a stage higher in bodily power compared to him would make any information on what we can do pretty close to worthless due to how Cultivation works, but first we'd need that power.

I'm pretty much saying if we go for the Tomb, it's not Vault we want. It's the combat power booster.
 
DarkKing98 said:
If it was purely Anti-Cultivation than the Diagramists or other ages before them would have entered and looted everything.
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Our Diagrams being immune to negation is a property of the Ring. The Diagramist empires didn't have that advantage.

Oh, and reading the Ring's description, here's another way how the Tomb could make Cultivation cease working: time-travel to Ages where Cultivation or some of the arts it relies on didn't exist yet.


Also, let's talk about tomb-raiding tactics.
  • Suizhen and Xiaolong go into the Vault, obviously. So goes any portable loot.
  • We should be using our Tracking Pulse a lot to detect corpses and remains early, alerting us to potential danger. Similarly, with a high-habitability Vault, we should have a source of wildlife we can release to trigger traps. If we run into a particularly dangerous or annoying type of trap, we can use the Pulse to locate more of those traps too.
  • Mordant Fire can be used to dig, which may allow us to bypass some obstacles.
  • Resting should happen inside the Vault, provided the anchor can be kept safe. Not sure what it looks like from the outside if it's inscribed on our body.
  • If there are monsters, we can disguise ourselves as one of them with Seeming.
  • Teleporting out is not recommended, since the dungeon moves and it's not guaranteed we can get back in. Once we enter, we need to use the opportunity to get to the end. Stock vault with more than sufficient supplies first.
  • If there are dangerous ghosts, undead gods, or other immaterial beings that can't be hurt by our attacks, then we might be able to get rid of them by sending Tyranshal some company.
  • Don't forget some source of magical light, compass, ropes, ladders, and so on. There's a lot of space in the Vault, and our Cultivation-boosted physical attributes may not always be available.
 
DarkKing98 said:
No, I meant on the secrets thing that could take Zang Kong by surprise. As long as he has access to our information he will be able to at least be aware of what we can throw at him.

Of course, being even half a stage higher in bodily power compared to him would make any information on what we can do pretty close to worthless due to how Cultivation works, but first we'd need that power.

I'm pretty much saying if we go for the Tomb, it's not Vault we want. It's the combat power booster.
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Kong doesn't get any info about us in next five years, as he's busy Ascending. In five years time, he will pause his Ascension to check what's going on, before going back to grinding.

Regardless, Flesh spell is pretty weak combat booster. We are not likely to get combat form, as it takes ages to shift back to training form and being insectoid monstrosity is a pain in the ass and spending 2BPs for mere 0.5 stages is just not worth it.
Rask said:
Suizhen and Xiaolong go into the Vault, obviously. So goes any portable loot.
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We won't be bringing them along, however. Unless we FB Vault so Suizhan can start farming early, anyhow.
 
Shard said:
Hmm, from an IC perspective Nameless creating the Vault makes Suizen useful, and provides goodies. Saving the Empires is a good reason to go to the elves, while a comfort Vault plays well to Nameless being spoiled. Meanwhile, Palimpest doesn't quite have the argument of helping Spoiled.. It looks like Palimpest EFB is something that will be forever gone.

>.<

Just note that with Palimpest Elder Beast we can make ~17 artifacts of very high calibre every year. An artifact to boost Cerebation, one to assist us in removing Diagram spells we don't need (Mordant Fire and Tyranshal's Extirpation comes to mind), another to give us the ability to Destroy Souls, maybe a Sword for Suizen, perhaps an artifact to boost Open the Way, allowing us to teleport easily everywhere.. Vault's Artifact-Upgrade, A combat artifact for ourselves, and that long wishlist is less than half of the amount of artifacts we'd have.

...That's actually a problem. Too many artifacts! :O
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But those Artefacts take time to create, where the Vault's Treasures come on a permenant drip as long as we have someone in there farming them.
Shard said:
If we can't actually beat Zang Kong in combat, his inability to kill us off indirectly doesn't matter, since he can already defeat us. First we acquire the power to actually win in combat. Then we secure our avenues of defeat. The former without the latter is viable, if difficult. The latter without the former is impossible.
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Not actually true - if he kills the Heroine before he destroys every Empire (and I don't think he can let every Empire be destroyed, given his apparent Oaths with Yong Shen) we technically win and get our wish when we respawn.
DarkKing98 said:
Problems with this.

1) No, we are NOT more prepared for this than anyone else.
2) WHY would a civilization from many, many, ages ago have anti Zang Kong secrets when he wouldn't have existed back then?
3) In what world do you think people who have come back from the Tomb with treasure that was frankly not worth it at all, or a Dao that finally brought collapse on the person with it on the Reality Forming stage being reached having GOOD treasure?
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1) Our mastery of multiple schools of magic makes us the best possible candidate for a Tomb designed to counter specific forms of magic.
2) They're unlikely to be direct Zang Kong counters - they're going to be general buffs to our unerstanding of Cultivation (and thus its speed, and possibly its effectiveness) and a look at previous Ages - we might get some information about how the Heroes try to win, or what previous Overlords tried and which gambits succeeded, for example.
3) Either they just weren't able to get the cool stuff we're hoping for, or the prizes aren't physical (they're information, etc.)
 
This is how I see what's going to happen.

Either I'm right about the Tomb being COMPLETELY useless for preparing for Zang Kong and the Elves fall while we are in there, thus causing massive salt on every side.
I'm right and the Tomb is completely useless for preparing for Zang Kong but the Elves did not fall while we are in there, thus letting us get more MP.
I'm wrong about the Tomb, and be grateful for it, BUT the Elves fall while we were in there, thus causing massive backlash towards the people who act like the TOMB was the time sensitive thing instead of the obvious time sensitive Elven Empire fall.
Or it didn't matter which was chosen first and we simply could do either first.

Personally, I'm hoping for the last, and am fearing the first.
 
For the tomb, Xiaolong would be of greater use preparing the way for what we do after. For example, she could go to the lands of Ming and lay the foundations we need to bring peace.
 
DarkKing98 said:
This is how I see what's going to happen.

Either I'm right about the Tomb being COMPLETELY useless for preparing for Zang Kong and the Elves fall while we are in there, thus causing massive salt on every side.
I'm right and the Tomb is completely useless for preparing for Zang Kong but the Elves did not fall while we are in there, thus letting us get more MP.
I'm wrong about the Tomb, and be grateful for it, BUT the Elves fall while we were in there, thus causing massive backlash towards the people who act like the TOMB was the time sensitive thing instead of the obvious time sensitive Elven Empire fall.
Or it didn't matter which was chosen first and we simply could do either first.

Personally, I'm hoping for the last, and am fearing the first.
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Well, Rihaku said we don't think the elves will fall in the next few months. No need to be worried.
 
DarkKing98 said:
This is how I see what's going to happen.

Either I'm right about the Tomb being COMPLETELY useless for preparing for Zang Kong and the Elves fall while we are in there, thus causing massive salt on every side.
I'm right and the Tomb is completely useless for preparing for Zang Kong but the Elves did not fall while we are in there, thus letting us get more MP.
I'm wrong about the Tomb, and be grateful for it, BUT the Elves fall while we were in there, thus causing massive backlash towards the people who act like the TOMB was the time sensitive thing instead of the obvious time sensitive Elven Empire fall.
Or it didn't matter which was chosen first and we simply could do either first.

Personally, I'm hoping for the last, and am fearing the first.
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That's not quite right though. The Tomb is, by WOG, likely to throw a bunch of Cultivation multipliers at us - so going there earlier means we can churn out Artifacts at a more rapid rate, and will be in a better position when it becomes time to Cultivate past this bottleneck of a Dao. And if we go to the Elves first, we are extremely likely to get to the point where the Tomb no longer counts as dangerous enough to give us MM. And again, we have absolutely no indication the Elves are about to go down in the next few months, and every indication to the contrary. If the Heroine were up and active to stir up trouble maybe, but this state of tension between the Elves and the Ming has been going on for millennia, and will continue to do so until a catalyst comes to do so (AKA the Heroine).

EDIT: Also, our current bottleneck is picking a Dao. This lets us save up to EFB it and gives maximal MMs to grab Truth with, which people apparently want to grab before getting a Dao.
 
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Rask said:
Well, Rihaku said we don't think the elves will fall in the next few months. No need to be worried.
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Nameless is no god. He does not know everything. Something he never would expect could happen and cause the fall. Or he doesn't understand the full situation and how close to the edge the Elves are to downfall.

Not saying he can't be right. Just trying to point out that he could be VERY wrong. At this point in time, Elves seem to be the only way to learn about Naturalism. We also know they have been warring for a long ass time and they are doomed to fall eventually. The only question is WHEN will their defense finally give in?
 
Deathbybunnies said:
But those Artefacts take time to create, where the Vault's Treasures come on a permenant drip as long as we have someone in there farming them.
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The Vault's treasures, though, while relevent, are not actually very good compared to what we can make, per Rihaku. Which makes sense, since we're making an artifact to create lesser artifacts.
Deathbybunnies said:
Not actually true - if he kills the Heroine before he destroys every Empire (and I don't think he can let every Empire be destroyed, given his apparent Oaths with Yong Shen) we technically win and get our wish when we respawn.
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He has to permakill the Heroine beyond Fate BS before we win the bet.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Not actually true - if he kills the Heroine before he destroys every Empire (and I don't think he can let every Empire be destroyed, given his apparent Oaths with Yong Shen) we technically win and get our wish when we respawn.
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Or the Heroine is strong enough to survive, but 99.99999% of the Empire isn't.

Kong Zhang is competent enough to engineer omnicide to be an automatic component of his awakening. Given the way that the Fates work, it's a pretty obvious way to defuse their traps.

Why wouldn't he do this?

And what does a promise to an ant matter? Yong Shen is the prosaic earth that he's shed as he ascended. Worse, Yong Shen was a bully, so Kong Zhang has that extra motivation to fuck him up.
 
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Shard said:
The Vault's treasures, though, while relevent, are not actually very good compared to what we can make, per Rihaku. Which makes sense, since we're making an artifact to create lesser artifacts.
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This is not completely true. At Sign Augmentation 7, you are entirely correct. At Sign Augmentation 9, we get appropriately challenging Monsters that drop Priceless Treasures of roughly equivalent power.

Well, I suppose equivalent power still isn't "Stage +2" like the Forge. On the other hand, they don't consume cultivation time.
 
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It sorta is "Stage +2". We mostly consider them to be Cultivation aids, so they will be Titan Monsters dropping Titan-relevant Cultivation aids while we are still in Reality Forming.
 
Alratan said:
Or the Heroine is strong enough to survive, but 99.99999% of the Empire isn't.

Kong Zhang is competent enough to engineer omnicide to be an automatic component of his awakening. Given the way that the Fates work, it's a pretty obvious way to defuse their traps.

Why wouldn't he do this?

And what does a promise to an ant matter? Yong Shen is the prosaic earth that he's shed as he ascended. Worse, Yong Shen was a bully, so Kong Zhang has that extra motivation to fuck him up.
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See, we can create a Beyond Vault to store an Empire in our pocket quickly, within less than two months. We can literally train for it and Beyond anytime, since it was open to us from first adventure. All we lose out on is pimping it out with runes and shit for FB.

However, if we take it now we lose out on Palimpsest's EFB, which is the thing that actually gets us much closer to beating Kong. Neutralises his mind reading, makes up half the Cultivation difference between the two of us, gives us the combat skill of the Sword (this was worth actual Celestial Orbs at chargen).

I don't feel opportunity cost of taking Vault now is worth it.
 
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Rask said:
This is not completely true. At Sign Augmentation 7, you are entirely correct. At Sign Augmentation 9, we get appropriately challenging Monsters that drop Priceless Treasures of roughly equivalent power.

Well, I suppose equivalent power still isn't "Stage +2" like the Forge. On the other hand, they don't consume cultivation time.
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Wolfy said:
It sorta is "Stage +2". We mostly consider them to be Cultivation aids, so they will be Titan Monsters dropping Titan-relevant Cultivation aids while we are still in Reality Forming.
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Pilampest straight up multiply our cultivation speed by *2.2, however, on top of all our multipliers. Also we are bottlenecked at Dao until we choose to go Beyond, so we're going to making a ton of artifacts - Time spent fighting monsters is still time spent. If we then use that cultivation progress to forge artifacts, well.. why didn't we get Pilampest instead? It's multiplier does apply to Chronoreactor, whereas Vault's bonus to Cultivation stacks additively with Chronoreactor.

Pilampest is simply more superior due to Chronoreactor's presence - Without, Monster Vault would probably be better. It's just Pilampest has a very strong synergy with Chronoreactor - And Nameless probably prefers that way instead of killing monsters for cultivation ingredients. Pilampest leaves his time open.
 
Basically Pilamsest is more efficient because this is how it'd go:

Pilamsest Cultivation = Chronoreactor * 2.2
Monster Vault Cultivation = Chronoreactor + Time Spent Farming

Would Nameless truly want to spend his hours grinding dangerous monsters????

- Monster Vault would have to offer bonuses better than a 1.2 additional multiple to make up for the time not spent on everything else.
- Pilamsest leaves us free time to do whatever.
- Both options still have us bottlenecked at Dao Cleaving until we advance, so we'll have to create artifacts anyway.
 
Shard said:
Would Nameless truly want to spend his hours grinding dangerous monsters????
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Nah, we're supposed to send our only non-bitch Lackey there. I don't think Xiaoling would do this even if we asked, since dungeons tend to be uncomfortable, non-luxurious places with merely Hab 5.
 
We're bottlenecked daowise until we get a mastermind point and the free one we'll get with that one.Then we can unlock truth(improves beyond and further beyond tier Dao cleaving) if we managed to not spend any BPs.

We're at something like 4.32 BP 1 Mastermind point.
 
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Shard said:
Would Nameless truly want to spend his hours grinding dangerous monsters????

- Monster Vault would have to offer bonuses better than a 1.2 additional multiple to make up for the time not spent on everything else.
- Pilamsest leaves us free time to do whatever.
- Both options still have us bottlenecked at Dao Cleaving until we advance, so we'll have to create artifacts anyway.
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Grinding time depends on spawn frequency and on how long a hunt takes. Besides, it can be delegated to Suizhen.

Also, unlike Cultivation, the priceless treasures could be saved for use until after we acquire our Dao, rather than for making artifacts right now.
 
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Conjured Blade said:
We're bottlenecked daowise until we get a mastermind point. Then we can unlock truth if we managed to not spend any BPs.
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We also need at least 1 more BP to get bare minimum for Philosopher's Stone progression.

And I'm sad people aren't willing to invest more there to save for EFBs somewhere else, since PK is the foundation of a large part of our build, and we only get four time-limited chances to directly improve results of Artifice now.
 
Shard said:
Basically Pilamsest is more efficient because this is how it'd go:

Pilamsest Cultivation = Chronoreactor * 2.2
Monster Vault Cultivation = Chronoreactor + Time Spent Farming

Would Nameless truly want to spend his hours grinding dangerous monsters????

- Monster Vault would have to offer bonuses better than a 1.2 additional multiple to make up for the time not spent on everything else.
- Pilamsest leaves us free time to do whatever.
- Both options still have us bottlenecked at Dao Cleaving until we advance, so we'll have to create artifacts anyway.
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It's not time spent farming, it's time spent having lackeys farming.

That said...

[X] Palimpsest of the Nameless One
[X] Tomb of the Netherine

I think I've been sold by just how shitty the FB is - we won't be tempted to take it, meaning we can save up for undiscounted EFBs more easily. It's also probably more immediately useful - it's a short term gain over a long term one, but I think maybe we can make use of it to grasp better gains elsewhere. And if we're not going FB on the Vault right now the Priceless Treasures probably don't match the Palimpsest's Cultivation bonus.

Most importantly of all though, your point about us still being bottlenecked at Dao Cleaving is a good one. Double Artefacts does probably beat the PLs, since Chronoreactor means we essentially charge up Artefacts for free - a point which I had forgotten, thinking that the Artefacts would still take time spent Cultivating to make. If we're taking a Vault for the free PLs, it's worth remembering that Palimpsest means more free Artefacts.

Finally, I am a little worried we might end up not finding another way to remove the Eyes of Kong, or that the way will come with drawbacks instead of strong bonuses. In the long run, then, this might end up being better anyway.
 
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RedV said:
We also need at least 1 more BP to get bare minimum for Philosopher's Stone progression.

And I'm sad people aren't willing to invest more there to save for EFBs somewhere else, since PK is the foundation of a large part of our build, and we only get four time-limited chances to directly improve results of Artifice now.
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...what do you mean? Rihaku said we have 4 BP. We have enough to just blast straight to PK right now, all we'd need is time.
 
Rask said:
Also, unlike Cultivation, the priceless treasures could be saved for use until after we acquire our Dao, rather than for making artifacts right now.
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I'd rather have a Titanic Artifact in comparison to a Cultivation aid we can bully people for.

DarkKing98 said:
...what do you mean? Rihaku said we have 4 BP. We have enough to just blast straight to PK right now, all we'd need is time.
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The post I quoted was suggesting we use those BP to quickly buy Truth and then enter Reality Forming. And I for one would prefer not to invest bare minimum BP in boosting Cultivation level.
 
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DarkKing98 said:
...what do you mean? Rihaku said we have 4 BP. We have enough to just blast straight to PK right now, all we'd need is time.
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After Truth we need a BP to go beyond Dao Cleaving for Philosophers Stone I suspect.

Edit:Ninjaed
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Apr 9, 2018 at 9:45 AM, finished with 696 posts and 78 votes.
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