Even Further Beyond [Complete]

This is the most BP you've ever had, but there's no guarantee that BP generation will get you to the 8+ needed to be in striking range of an EFB within a few days... even using average rates, the thread only generates 1 BP per ~two days and you guys pretty much never vote for Mastermind Points or even BP progress!
 
[X] Tomb of the Netherine
[X] Palimpsest of the Nameless One
-[X] Form of Balance

I really want the EFB version of the Palimpest. Spiritual binding and so forth sounds quite cool and the cultivation and physical benefit is not insignificant. However, going further beyond is not worth it at this time, as the Dao presumably cannot be refined in the same way diagrams can?

I want to go to the Tomb of the Netherine because the past is where the future lies - an experience of the varied paths life can take, of the incomprehensibility of whatever alien mind constructed the museum's corridors, of the fae sciences that species long dead dreamed up would be of great benefit in establishing a flourish of internal universes.
 
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Tally incoming
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Apr 8, 2018 at 11:34 PM, finished with 539 posts and 76 votes.
 
[X] Tomb of the Netherine
[X] Palimpsest of the Nameless One
-[X] Form of Balance

I really want the EFB version of the Palimpest. Spiritual binding and so forth sounds quite cool and the cultivation and physical benefit is not insignificant. However, going further beyond is not worth it at this time, as the Dao presumably cannot be refined in the same way diagrams can?

I want to go to the Tomb of the Netherine because the past is where the future lies - an experience of the varied paths life can take, of the incomprehensibility of whatever alien mind constructed the museum's corridors, of the fae sciences that species long dead dreamed up would be of great benefit in establishing a flourish of internal universes.
It's just this specific Diagram that we can refine, but almost certainly not.
 
I checked the distribution of BP Spending related votes:

Further Beyond:

Palimpest: 4
Vault: 12


Implicit Don't Go Further Beyond:

Palimpest: 22
Vault:28

Explicit Don't Go Further Beyond:

Palimpest:2
Vault: 3
 
I'm a bit unsure as to why we would choose an EFB Dao if it pretty much trashes the Philosopher King progression. There is simply no way we're gonna go EFB for Reality Forming and Grand Solipsist as well.

FB for Dao, Reality, and Grand along with EFB for Titan we MIGHT manage... EFB for all of them is not gonna happen.

I'll grant that Dao are super important, but yeah...
 
I'm a bit unsure as to why we would choose an EFB Dao if it pretty much trashes the Philosopher King progression. There is simply no way we're gonna go EFB for Reality Forming and Grand Solipsist as well.

FB for Dao, Reality, and Grand along with EFB for Titan we MIGHT manage... EFB for all of them is not gonna happen.

I'll grant that Dao are super important, but yeah...
Well, Rihaku only said that spending more on one stage would 'unbalance' our progress -- perhaps there's some particular advantage to doing so in Dao Cleaving (that accelerates, rather than trashes, our progress)?
Maybe (though I don't think that this is the case) going EFB on Dao Cleaving cleaves us so closely to our Dao that further pursuing it effortless -- translating to free or discounted BP expenditures on cultivation/stages?
 
Changing since it's probably better to get the dungeon crawling done before getting entangled in politics.

[X] Tomb of the Netherine
[X] Vault of the Ur-Pharaoh
 
I'm a bit unsure as to why we would choose an EFB Dao if it pretty much trashes the Philosopher King progression. There is simply no way we're gonna go EFB for Reality Forming and Grand Solipsist as well.

FB for Dao, Reality, and Grand along with EFB for Titan we MIGHT manage... EFB for all of them is not gonna happen.

I'll grant that Dao are super important, but yeah...
Apparently EFB Dao cleaving grants a more powerful dao than the one we get by unlocking truth.
 
I don't think we're ever going to get the 31-40BP if we EFB Dao Cleaving to finish PK. And even if we did, I think it's very inefficient. Thus, I'm against it.
 
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I'm going to console myself that even if we can't be a war-god incarnate, with Vault EFB we can probably do reality marbles and stuff like Unlimited Blade Works.

But no becoming Gilgamesh. :|
 
You know what?

[X] Journey to the West
[X] Palimpsest of the Nameless One

Might not mean a thing, but Form of Vehemence is just too good. Even post-Titanic power creep, that's still 1.5~2 combat stages.
 
[X] Tomb of the Netherine
[X] Palimpsest of the Nameless One
-[X] Form of Balance

Balance is something that'll pay off in dividends later on--most of the shit we have to worry about is esoteric--and this is the Palimpsest variant that focuses on anti-esoteric nonsense.

Elder Beast and Warmain both strike me as tricks that seem good on the forefront but quickly become Problematic down the line. Elder Beast is aping Kong--and he's been doing the Kong thing far longer than we have--Warmain basically surrenders our humanity for power, and basically anyone who matters to us is going to be able to pierce the illusions we can use to hide it--it introduces a threat vector, and as we've seen, when you introduce new threat vectors in this setting, they always get exploited.

Balance is still very good! And let me tell you why.

Consider that our base Cultivation Rate is 100%.

The Chronoreactor effectively triples our base Cultivation Rate--in this case, to 300%, and allows us to Cultivate passively. We then apply Quickening to this to get six times the 'Time' for every objective period we take. For all intents and purposes, this brings our final Cultivation Rate improvement to 1,800% of what it would normally be. Pretty impressive!

Now, let's increase our base Cultivation Rate to 140%.

140% x 3 = 420%. So we've already effectively stacked another multiplier on. 420% x 6 = 2,520%.

Compared to not having Balance, we've gone from 1,800% cultivation rate to 2,520%. Another seven times again what our base cultivation rate would be!

Yes, Elder Beast would be stronger, but it still tries to beat Kong at his own game--and he's had far more time to ruminate on it than us. Warmain is right out.

And as we've established, it's far better to not invite exploiting a weakness than it is to assume you can power through it. This eventually builds up to the Form of Virtuosity, which is... Well, it's arguably one of the most effective things we could employ for our build--passive interdiction to esoteric horseshit is going to be useful, and it limits the influence that fate hacks can employ against us!
 
Hm. Unless you guys want another build vote, you're going to have to come to a consensus on what you want out of the Vault in the event that it wins. The standard Beyond Vault has 20 points, and you don't have time to forge an Artifact or the votes to Go Further Beyond right now. Given your eventual ambitions, this would probably be the most uncontroversial Vault:

Proto-Arcology

Hab 5
Access 2
Sign 5
Size 5
Sec 3

You'd have to Go Further Beyond in order to get Sec to 5, but it serves as a decent Arcology-esque pocket dimension with nice Hab to mitigate Spoiled and access to Sign effects. This provides a good setup for a theoretically optimal monster-farming Vault (Hab 5 / Sign 5 / Size 5) in the future. The Cultivation benefits are only modest now that you have the Chronoreactor, but they're something. Alternatively you could go something like this:

Subspace Fortress

Hab 4
Access 5
Sign 1
Size 5
Sec 5

This has the flexibility to become a Phylactery of Empires with just an Artifact, but can also be upgraded with Further Beyond to 4/5/5/5/5 for superb versatility. It can also serve as a combat vault in the here and now with Access 5 / Sec 5. A Sec 5 Indestructible-type Vault anchor also gives you "armor" where the runes are placed on Nameless' torso, and makes the Vault far more practical for storing Grand Diagrams. If you are fully committed to immediate power you could even go something like this:

Final Sanctum

Hab 2
Access 5
Sign 5
Size 3
Sec 5

And transition back to a flexible Hab 4 / Size 5 build upon going Further Beyond. This would give you access to basically the full array of combat Vault functions, giving you some combat-speed Utility effects that don't require direct Diagram casting. You have the bodily strength of a Titan but no Reality Effects so far, so this could help patch that hole in your capabilities while retaining long-term versatility. Reflect or absorb enemy attacks by opening portals in front of them, soft-teleport by opening Sign-augmented access portals around a battlefield, etc. High Access is also really nice if you end up making Artifact weapons/armor later. With more work you could even do crazy shit like using the Time sign to freeze an enemy's intercepted attack inside to save for later.

Since you are very powerful now and have the option of Going Further Beyond later, there are a lot of viable configurations. But you do have to pick one.
 
So, how do we create a Dao that is greater than the Endless Sky, ie infinity? We can start by looking at set theory, and at other quests.

The Ordinal Spiral is nothing less than the fastest and most efficient path that any ontologically coherent mind can take, towards the heart of magic… The heart of magic is something which all the words of men, written and spoken, have yet failed to contain. The best we can do is to say, simply, that it is a thing which can be described in many ways, but which is best described by the Ordinal Spiral."

And here we have the answer; the most optimal Dao is (probably?) one which is in some way related to the Ordinal Spiral. While Nameless will obviously not have encountered the Ordinal Spiral magic system, if he's taken classes on set theory he'll be aware of ordinal numbers, cardinal numbers, and other such terms. In fact, the Wikipedia article on ordinal numbers even includes a pretty picture of an ordinal spiral. So while replicating the Ordinal Spiral using Cultivation is probably impossible, and would bore readers such as myself who love exploring new magic systems, drawing inspiration from set theory is likely our best bet.

In addition, we were given the option of communicating with Earth scientists in order to create an optimal Dao. So why on earth would Earth scientists be superior to Imperial Daoists? Because Earth scientists are aware of various mathematical concepts that the Imperials are not.

I would propose that we make our Dao the Aleph. My own knowledge of set theory is rather limited, so I'll avoid offering any explanations here. All you need to know is that an Aleph is a term from set theory, that it is better than a single infinity like that of Kang, and that it also embodies the concept of order, since the Aleph numbers only represent sets that are well-ordered. Order is nice, since it allows us to avoid the unfortunate cancer comparisons made with Zang's Dao.

Now most Dao's embody concepts a bit less esoteric than a term from set theory. The sky, the primordial elements, the succession of ages; each of these is an easily understood concept with a cool name and direct implications in the physical world. So can we do the same thing for our Dao of the Aleph? Well, we can help ourselves to some inspiration from the Kabbalah. "Aleph, in Jewish mysticism, represents the oneness of God. The letter can be seen as being composed of an upper yud (Yodh), a lower yud, and a vav (Waw (letter)) leaning on a diagonal. The upper yud represents the hidden and ineffable aspects of God while the lower yud represents God's revelation and presence in the world. The vav ("hook") connects the two realms."

Just as we are Thrice-Great, so too does the Aleph combines three parts; the divine, the physical, and the spiritual that connects these two. As the Philosopher King we are already drawing heavy inspiration from the Hermetic Qabalah, so having our Dao be the Aleph makes thematic sense.

And this is where my limited knowledge of math and esoteric mysticism run out, so I'll stop.
 
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So, how do we create a Dao that is greater than the Endless Sky, ie infinity? We can start by looking at set theory, and at other quests.



And here we have the answer; the most optimal Dao is (probably?) one which is in some way related to the Ordinal Spiral. While Nameless will obviously not have encountered the Ordinal Spiral magic system, if he's taken classes on set theory he'll be aware of ordinal numbers, cardinal numbers, and other such terms. In fact, the Wikipedia article on ordinal numbers even includes a pretty picture of an ordinal spiral. So while replicating the Ordinal Spiral using Cultivation is probably impossible, and would bore readers such as myself who love exploring new magic systems, drawing inspiration from set theory is likely our best bet.

In addition, we were given the option of communicating with Earth scientists in order to create an optimal Dao. So why on earth would Earth scientists be superior to Imperial Daoists? Because Earth scientists are aware of various mathematical concepts that the Imperials are not.

I would propose that we make our Dao the Aleph. My own knowledge of set theory is rather limited, so I'll avoid offering any explanations here. All you need to know is that an Aleph is better than a single infinity like that of Kang, and also embodies the concept of order, since the Aleph numbers only represent sets that are well-ordered. Order is nice, since it allows us to avoid the unfortunate cancer comparisons made with Zang's Dao.

Now most Dao's embody concepts a bit less esoteric than a term from set theory. The sky, the primordial elements, the succession of ages; each of these is an easily understood concept with a cool name and direct implications in the physical world. So can we do the same thing for our Dao of the Aleph? Well, we can help ourselves to some inspiration from the Kabbalah. "Aleph, in Jewish mysticism, represents the oneness of God. The letter can be seen as being composed of an upper yud (Yodh), a lower yud, and a vav (Waw (letter)) leaning on a diagonal. The upper yud represents the hidden and ineffable aspects of God while the lower yud represents God's revelation and presence in the world. The vav ("hook") connects the two realms."

Just as we are Thrice-Great, so too does the Aleph combines three parts; the divine, the physical, and the spiritual that connects these two. As the Philosopher King we are already drawing heavy inspiration from the Hermetic Qabalah, so having our Dao be the Aleph makes thematic sense.

And this is where my limited knowledge of math and esoteric mysticism run out, so I'll stop.
I shall use the powers bestow to me as a math undergraduate
There are different tiers of infinity, and there are infinities bigger then other infinities, and an infinite number of them. All you have to do, to get a larger infinity is to take the Power set. Which is essentially all possibilities/permutations.

I.E. {a,b,c}
This set contains {a,b,c}, the power set is as follows {},{a},{b},{c},{a,b},{a,c},{b,c}{a,b,c}

What embodies all possibilities? I for one would claims Dreams and Hopes. For we strive to do everything and yet we can do so little.
 
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I'd definitely go for the proto-arcology. Spoiled mitigation and Monster Farming are the two biggest advantages the vault can offer IMO.
 
Mhm, Subspace fortress has potential..

We need a pocket empire to not get fucked because of my our defeat condition.
 
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So, how do we create a Dao that is greater than the Endless Sky, ie infinity? We can start by looking at set theory, and at other quests.



And here we have the answer; the most optimal Dao is (probably?) one which is in some way related to the Ordinal Spiral. While Nameless will obviously not have encountered the Ordinal Spiral magic system, if he's taken classes on set theory he'll be aware of ordinal numbers, cardinal numbers, and other such terms. In fact, the Wikipedia article on ordinal numbers even includes a pretty picture of an ordinal spiral. So while replicating the Ordinal Spiral using Cultivation is probably impossible, and would bore readers such as myself who love exploring new magic systems, drawing inspiration from set theory is likely our best bet.

In addition, we were given the option of communicating with Earth scientists in order to create an optimal Dao. So why on earth would Earth scientists be superior to Imperial Daoists? Because Earth scientists are aware of various mathematical concepts that the Imperials are not.

I would propose that we make our Dao the Aleph. My own knowledge of set theory is rather limited, so I'll avoid offering any explanations here. All you need to know is that an Aleph is a term from set theory, that it is better than a single infinity like that of Kang, and that it also embodies the concept of order, since the Aleph numbers only represent sets that are well-ordered. Order is nice, since it allows us to avoid the unfortunate cancer comparisons made with Zang's Dao.

Now most Dao's embody concepts a bit less esoteric than a term from set theory. The sky, the primordial elements, the succession of ages; each of these is an easily understood concept with a cool name and direct implications in the physical world. So can we do the same thing for our Dao of the Aleph? Well, we can help ourselves to some inspiration from the Kabbalah. "Aleph, in Jewish mysticism, represents the oneness of God. The letter can be seen as being composed of an upper yud (Yodh), a lower yud, and a vav (Waw (letter)) leaning on a diagonal. The upper yud represents the hidden and ineffable aspects of God while the lower yud represents God's revelation and presence in the world. The vav ("hook") connects the two realms."

Just as we are Thrice-Great, so too does the Aleph combines three parts; the divine, the physical, and the spiritual that connects these two. As the Philosopher King we are already drawing heavy inspiration from the Hermetic Qabalah, so having our Dao be the Aleph makes thematic sense.

And this is where my limited knowledge of math and esoteric mysticism run out, so I'll stop.

That...

Huh, yeah, that feels right.

I think something like that may very well be the EFB Dao.
 
and that it also embodies the concept of order, since the Aleph numbers only represent sets that are well-ordered.
Not quite. Aleph numbers represent cardinalities, which are size without necessarily order. If you want well ordered sets, you want the ordinal hierarchy. The ordinals are also probably a purer instantiation of going Even Further Beyond then the cardinals, due to the way they're constructed.

Fun fact: the number of cardinalities is bigger than anything set theory can contain, as is the number of ordinals, yet they (and all other proper classes) have provably the same size. Cantor was right, there are many transfinites, but only one Absolute Infinite.
 
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Hm. Unless you guys want another build vote, you're going to have to come to a consensus on what you want out of the Vault in the event that it wins. The standard Beyond Vault has 20 points, and you don't have time to forge an Artifact or the votes to Go Further Beyond right now. Given your eventual ambitions, this would probably be the most uncontroversial Vault:

Proto-Arcology

Hab 5
Access 2
Sign 5
Size 5
Sec 3

You'd have to Go Further Beyond in order to get Sec to 5, but it serves as a decent Arcology-esque pocket dimension with nice Hab to mitigate Spoiled and access to Sign effects. This provides a good setup for a theoretically optimal monster-farming Vault (Hab 5 / Sign 5 / Size 5) in the future. The Cultivation benefits are only modest now that you have the Chronoreactor, but they're something. Alternatively you could go something like this:

Subspace Fortress

Hab 4
Access 5
Sign 1
Size 5
Sec 5

This has the flexibility to become a Phylactery of Empires with just an Artifact, but can also be upgraded with Further Beyond to 4/5/5/5/5 for superb versatility. It can also serve as a combat vault in the here and now with Access 5 / Sec 5. A Sec 5 Indestructible-type Vault anchor also gives you "armor" where the runes are placed on Nameless' torso, and makes the Vault far more practical for storing Grand Diagrams. If you are fully committed to immediate power you could even go something like this:

Final Sanctum

Hab 2
Access 5
Sign 5
Size 3
Sec 5

And transition back to a flexible Hab 4 / Size 5 build upon going Further Beyond. This would give you access to basically the full array of combat Vault functions, giving you some combat-speed Utility effects that don't require direct Diagram casting. You have the bodily strength of a Titan but no Reality Effects so far, so this could help patch that hole in your capabilities while retaining long-term versatility. Reflect or absorb enemy attacks by opening portals in front of them, soft-teleport by opening Sign-augmented access portals around a battlefield, etc. High Access is also really nice if you end up making Artifact weapons/armor later. With more work you could even do crazy shit like using the Time sign to freeze an enemy's intercepted attack inside to save for later.

Since you are very powerful now and have the option of Going Further Beyond later, there are a lot of viable configurations. But you do have to pick one.
Out of curiosity, how would Further Beyond combat Vault look like?
 
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