You mean this post?
I hope you're right, but it could also be taken to mean that we need to put our essence into Naturalism instead of Artifice. Well, we don't even have a Vault yet, so we'll have to see how it works out later.
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Even Further Beyond [Complete]
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
I completely agree with this. Worst case, if it all goes totally tits up and we need to retreat and return with an army, we can then pull a comedy, 'That wasn't even my final form!' moment after consuming the Pearl then. That would possibly synergise beautifully with the Overlord archetype anyway.
In pretty much all ways it's better to save the Pearl until after or at the climax of the resolution of the Bleak Ravens mini-arc, not consume it in advance.
As a side note, I'd like to investigate using the Pearl as the physical basis of our next Cultivation artifact.
I'm not sure, I'll try to dig up Rihaku's quotes that made me think that the Naturalism half of Binary Magic was opposite to the Artifice part in this fashion.
I'm pretty confident that the Bleak Ravens will involve some action. It is called 'Confront' for a reason. We chose the direct, in your face approach. The scamming was just a build up for that. I'm afraid that what will happen if we go after the Arch-terrorist is that after the build up to the climactic scene of the reveal of what's happening with the Bleak Ravens, we'll abort half way through, get distracted, and then be let down when it's been resolved without us.
I trust Rihaku to make that suitably dramatic. It's even possible we'll pull a mask off the sect leader's face and say, 'It was you, Mr. Lich, all along'.
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OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Taking into account the nonstandard vote formats as follows and the recent vote for Suizen/Confront, the results of the plan based tally look like this:
+2 Give to Suizhen
+1 to Confront with Save or Consume
+1 to Confront with Give to Suizhen or Save
+1 to consume personally
Save/Confront: 14+1+1 = 16
Consume/Investigate:13+1 = 14
Suizen/Investigate:10+2 = 12
Suizen/Confront:4+2+1+1 = 8
Consume/Confront:2+1+1 = 4
Xiaoling/Confront:1 = 1
+2 Give to Suizhen
+1 to Confront with Save or Consume
+1 to Confront with Give to Suizhen or Save
+1 to consume personally
Save/Confront: 14+1+1 = 16
Consume/Investigate:13+1 = 14
Suizen/Investigate:10+2 = 12
Suizen/Confront:4+2+1+1 = 8
Consume/Confront:2+1+1 = 4
Xiaoling/Confront:1 = 1
Origami Clock
Right twice a day
- Location
- Brighton, UK
Welp, time to start raiding Naruto for hypothetical eye powers. It's not like much is off the table when The Titan of Mad Biology is behind things.
Cackles in Genius: The Transgression
Rihaku
The Internet
Something to consider: how is the protection of any major organization enforced? What steps specifically have to happen in the event of an actor defecting against the social status quo, for retribution to be carried out successfully? The limits of the practical do circumscribe the otherwise substantial defense that the names of Yong and Ming provide, moreso when far from either.
- Location
- Pindorama
Well, it's a good thing we didn't rob the Bank Of Yong, then!
Well, hopefully I made a decent start of it earlier with my tactics essay (although the lesson of history is that Rihaku probably wasn't impressed).
The big factors I have are that getting more Cultivation modifiers now, at the start of Nameless' adventures is so valuable. They unlock so many things.
If we're worried about getting more of anything done in the next few objective years, we can use the freed up time and extra essence to make artifacts that boost Potentiation and Quickening, getting more time to do whatever we want. Those extra years of time can be used to develop novel esoteric Diagram spells to kill the heroine, which we can then artifact enhance as we have the extra essence, for example.
It's also a gift that gives on giving. Extra cultivation speed unlocks extra cultivation speed, as, once again, we can make cultivation boosting artifacts, or artifacts to boost the spells that boost cultivation speed. This means it's a strongly compounding power up.
If you're worried about powering up our lieutenants, we can use that extra time not only to make them extra artifacts but also to design custom Cultivation arts, as we did for Xiaoling
It also gives us more time to adventure, so that we can find more Priceless Treasures, which we can use as bait for scams to get more power, given to our party to power them up, or to cement other alliances that we make as we become more of a player on the Empire's political scene.
Basically, Cultivation multipliers are the gift that keeps on giving and giving and giving, for years, before and after the Heroine is born. By contrast, esoteric Diagram attack magic is much less uselfull until the Heroine turns eighteen, and even then we'd need to be powerful enough to overcome the guardians that Fate has no doubt seen fit to provide her with. We need some, but they're a secondary priority after actually being able to kill her in the first place. They're also something that Cultivation multipliers gives us the ability to develop on our own, while the reverse is not true.
On pretty much all counts, at this particular stage of our adventuring time, Cultivation Multipliers seem like they should overwhelmingly be our priority. The point about one way substitutability is key. Cultivation Multipliers can give us esoteric attack modes 'for free'*. The reverse is not true.
* By free, I mean in the extra time the Cultivation multipliers give us.
Well, we'd clearly need to get the local Bank of Yong to send several sealed messages back home apparently telling them what we were planning on doing.
The best defence is also something we don't need to use. It's best used as a deterrent. If push comes to shove, they'd probably take the risk of silencing us and hoping to get away with it, so what we need to do is carefully calibrate how far extra the protection allows us to push them, and not treat it like a blank check. It's a tool like any other, and no tool is infallible.
Nameless' father taught him this. We're most powerful when we offer both the carrot of it being advantageous to cooperate with the threat that the consequences of playing rough aren't worth it when they're going to profit anyway.
Generally, people defect when they lack trust in the system. Either they lack trust in the punishment they'll receive for defecting, or in the reward they'll receive for playing by the rules. We just need to act in a way that preserves that trust.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Through making utter examples of anyone who dares violate it?
If a couple Scions of a great clan walk in to negotiate and trade fairly with a Sect, and then they never come out and the Sect leader is now sporting their treasures--those Clans have to absolutely fucking crush the ones responsible, or they lose face, it's a direct insult to those Clans--and fortunately, we didn't take actions that would lead to the local reaction being "Good Riddance", especially since we'd be stupid not to mention we were going down there to chat and maybe trade with them.
Like, as long as we don't start a fight, and trade in good order, the odds of them proactively going "Nah, I'm sure I can take the wrath of every Great Clan at once coming to exterminate me, my Sect, and literally my entire extended family and friend collective" are... Slim.
That becomes a lot less dangerous if you end up killing your way to the back. Because a man with nothing to lose has everything to gain from betting it all.
But if a man can gain something valuable by playing nice at what amounts to being zero risk, and gain the goodwill of promising scions of said Great Clan--that's the kind of thing that you can leverage into local hegemony.
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[X] Consume Personally
[X] Confront the Bleak Ravens
I would also be fine with saving it, but the pearl will improve our negotiating position with the Ravens whether we use it as a carrot dangled in front of them or an additional half-Stage of Cultivation. Not particularly concerned about the prospect of consuming it giving Zang a foothold; such concerns are far-off in any case, and with the ability to refine our Cultivation base we'll likely wind up burning away any gains we make anyway. Whatever traps exist (Suizhen seems confident there aren't any, but she did mistake cherries for Cultivation resources) aren't aimed at us. Not even the Elder Beast of Reason anticipated the advent of the Thrice-Great.
[X] Confront the Bleak Ravens
I would also be fine with saving it, but the pearl will improve our negotiating position with the Ravens whether we use it as a carrot dangled in front of them or an additional half-Stage of Cultivation. Not particularly concerned about the prospect of consuming it giving Zang a foothold; such concerns are far-off in any case, and with the ability to refine our Cultivation base we'll likely wind up burning away any gains we make anyway. Whatever traps exist (Suizhen seems confident there aren't any, but she did mistake cherries for Cultivation resources) aren't aimed at us. Not even the Elder Beast of Reason anticipated the advent of the Thrice-Great.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
No it won't.
And that's the mistake you're making here.
On paper, we're still a mid-Soul Chrysalis here, we don't even have the right to negotiate with them in that case, and if our actual combat power is late Dao Cleaving? They won't be able to realize that until we're already fighting them, and at that point, things have gone tits up already.
They might give us face and humor us due to our backing, but unless we've got something to offer them, the might of a mid-Soul Chrysalis isn't enough to obligate them into doing anything for us.
An early Soul Chrysalis bunch of Great Clan Scions though? Willing to trade a Priceless Treasure for the site they found? A Priceless Treasure that can solve the issues that the Sect Leader is currently grappling with? That's something that'd not only get an audience, but likely him being willing to trade the site. Even if it's something like the Sarcophagus, or a Vault with a strong time dilation effect on it that he's abusing, it'd still take objective months to recover from how it's described--we can trade him a pearl that'd help him recover basically instantly.
He'd have to be a crazed lunatic to start a fight when a couple Great Clan Scions are offering him something that'd let him repair his damaged Cultivation Base within a few days, in exchange for just relocating so they can try to tap the site instead. Because if he's just going to take that sort of thing instead, he invites retaliation--and if he--god forbid, tries to kill or cripple those scions, he invites grossly disproportionate retaliation for the insult given.
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We can trivially demonstrate physical prowess consistent with Late Dao Cleaving to establish our credentials.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
And Rihaku just told us that this is liable to cause as many problems as it solves, because Late Dao Cleaving combat strength at the age of 14 is gross. It's a rate of Cultivation almost twenty times greater than what's already considered to be fast enough to qualify as a future Patriach of said Great Clan.
Crazier still, we're jumping ranks to get that kind of combat power. We're liable to draw down more heat than we gain--and we invite obstinacy as well. How many Xianxia settings do you know take someone mauling one of their top experts with grace as a show of power? Especially when that strength isn't enough to suppress the entire Sect--from their patriarch to their Dao Reserve.
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I'm kind of agog at those who presume showing up with a treasure that makes ganking us super-tempting is a better route for negotiation than showing up with the ability to kick more ass.
Shows of force and making an example of fools is a VERY viable route for diplomacy, moreso than waving around a bribe we don't intend to hand over, and it's a route consistent with the Overlord Archetype we took as opposed to the trickster archetype we didn't.
Shows of force and making an example of fools is a VERY viable route for diplomacy, moreso than waving around a bribe we don't intend to hand over, and it's a route consistent with the Overlord Archetype we took as opposed to the trickster archetype we didn't.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Because they're not retarded?
Look at Xiaoling's First Unique--"Opposing one Great Clan is a bad idea, Opposing two is straight up a Famously Bad Idea".
These guys are a Sect--an organized group that has a chance at hegemony. Do you really think they're going to mortally offend those Clans by murdering or mugging their scions openly when they could get the most valuable thing they want by trading? And in doing so earn a modest amount of regard from those Houses?
When they're already making a bid for local hegemony, and thus, can't afford them sending some Peak Reality Forming or Grand Solipsist down to annihilate their sect and exterminate their clans in retaliation for the insult?
Unless he thinks he can level up enough to take on the escalation train from Great Clans, or pay appropriate wergild for exterminating Patriarch/Matriarch level members of the younger generation of those Clans for daring to approach him in good faith anyway--and if he could do those, he wouldn't have just barely muscled into Reality Forming.
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Rihaku has as much as said that leaning on clan reputation in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of near-criminal scum is a bad idea.
Yes, they would dare. People disappear all the time in the Overgrowfh.
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It would probably be useful to actually show them Nameless' power. Some trick like driving a low Dao Cleaving level beast right up to their doorstep and killing it in front of them, so they're in no doubt of his phenomenal power. That way they'll know to respect him. They also won't know precisely how much powerful he is than his apparent Cultivation stage.
That will also keep them on their toes. Yong is probably a distant, exaggerated legend to them, so if we demonstrate that we have power over one stage above that of a conventional Cultivator of our level, it should stronger reinforce our reputation, and that of our clan. If we're thay strong, how powerful are our elder cousins who might come here for revenge? They wouldn't immediately know that the Yong Cultivation. After all, the only time they see or hear of a Yong Cultivator is on the very rare occasions when a lich is annoying enough that a headhunter is sent our and they do the near impossible for a regular cultivator by perma-killing them.
As a side note, if we give Suizhen the Pearl, which normally seems reserved for use by those in Kong's inner circle, I wonder if we can blag that Suizhen is favoured by her. The Bleak Ravens are a long way from Ming and Yong, but they're on Kong's doorstep, while still being enough of a backwater to probably not know that her family was attained. If they think that retribution would come from someone powerful enough in Clan Kong to have procured and invested a Pearl that usually requires slaying a beast on the Grand Solipsism level, and so may be of that level themes.
Then why don't we have Nameless use illusions to pretend to be his own hidden Dao Protector then. Adopt an older appearance, and then kill a Dao Cleaving level beast while protecting someone wearing an illusion to look like Nameless (or simply use teleportation to jump locations). Do that in front of someone of the Organ Refining stage who we can hide our Cultivation from.
That way they think there's a hidden expert of unknown but at least the mid Dao Cleaving Stage (but possibly higher) shadowing Nameless (and possibly repeat the trick looking different to protect someone that looks like Xiaoling), and then they'd be much more careful about picking a fight and we wouldn't have revealed our true power level.
Nameless should be fully capable of this kind of scam. This should keep them honest, as they'll know that even if the Dao Protector can't kill them all, it would be incredibly hard to stop them getting away to call in vengance.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
On the contrary, he didn't say anything along those lines at all. He said to consider what actually enforces this reputation.
And that reputation is absolutely brutal and disproportionate retaliation for insult.
Unless they think they can exterminate everyone connected to our Clans without being fingered for it, when they have plenty of rivals around (We know this is untrue, there's a Bank of Yong here after all that we managed to avoid destroying, and I doubt that if we're approaching them openly, that we're going to hide who we're planning on doing business with), they'll get found out, since we're not making a secret of our fair and direct approach here--and that means everything they care for and every ambition of theirs is probably going to catch fire and explode from the sheer weight of the retaliation involved from such a deed.
Rihaku earlier said that our reputation is at it's strongest around Dao Cleaving/Reality Forming, because these sorts of people usually have enough things they care about, or enough organization behind them that they don't want to lose, that they don't dare risk losing it all for transient gain, and they aren't strong enough to weather even a casual reprisal from a Great Clan.
It's at it's weakest when people are either so weak and with so little backing that it's worth taking the risk--because a small chance at getting away with the greatest gain of your life is worth risking them finding you were responsible--or when people are so strong that even a Great Clan would have to put their back into punishing them. These guys are neither.
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What do you think of my proposal to pretend to have hidden Dao Protectors?
Are there any obvious weaknesses I missed? We know it's plausible because we could have had one.
What we have to be careful of is if this clan is controlled by a lich that doesn't care if its subverted tools get destroyed. They might welcome the opportunity to get revenge on the Great Clans that destroyed the Diagram Nations, no matter the cost.
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Rihaku
The Internet
The Bank of Yong isn't too relevant to that specific calculation. It's just money, after all.
Will Kong Zang be the Aizen to this thread's Ishida!?
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
It's a hell of a shell game, especially since we'd have to hand the Ring over to whoever's posing as Nameless at any given moment, but it's not a bad choice in itself if we can pull it off.
The secret knife in the darkness that you can't quantify is much more dangerous than the one you can see.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
???? I'm not saying to maul one of their experts, I'm saying to move really fast and crush a rock or something. Yeah, demonstrating our strength may be a worry, but a ton of options do that and early Dao Cleaving isn't so different from Late Dao Cleaving so that's a tactics consideration not an argument in my eyes.
Honestly it seems way too late to turn our plans aside for that to me. We've maneuvered ourselves into a position where hiding it cripples our ability to act so we're just gonna have to reveal it and try to mitigate the consequences. If we wanted to conceal our power we needed to hunt beasts or teleport in; it's simply too late now.