Even Further Beyond [Complete]

The Direct Approach
We don't have to stop at investigating on our own. We have access to local sects who themselves might have good reason to ally for the purposes of disrupting the plans of the Bleak Ravens. We took a number of social advantages, we can get our reputation working in our favour. In fact, using our refinement spell we can hunt down some resources, improve them and use them to spread rumours of the valuable resources the Bleak Ravens have found.

Pass plans
We have access to Tracking Pulse. There are a number of things we could search for to help track down Diagram related individuals.
* Mythril and Orichalcum - I don't know if we can search for it, but this material is associated with the Diagram.
* Diagrams - We are familiar with our own Diagrams, so we could likely use them to help us track down others. In particular, the Grand Necromancy Diagram is something common to Liches.
* Liches - Liches haven't Cultivated and so the Tracking Pulse might even help tracking them directly.

Scams. We don't have to take our payment in Cultivation resources. We could mobilize the sects to hunt down Diagram ruins.
 
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That's a good plan, but I don't know whether or not it fits with the theme of Direct Investigation, given we're literally going to just investigate and ignore the Cultivators until they come up to meet 'n greet us, leading to diplomacy and (potentially) combat.

It's a plan to prepare the ground and then to walk in having set things up so it's optimised for us to succeed.

It shouldn't be taken without also spending a Mastermind Point, as that's what guarantees that we get through our preparatory stage without being made, at which point the plan would be screwed.

We have access to Tracking Pulse. There are a number of things we could search for to help track down Diagram related individuals.

Tracking Pulse's range is really poor, and I don't think it crosses dimensional barriers.
 
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GLORIES OF THE MOST HIGH: NAMELESS STRATEGY GUIDE
Glories of the Most High is actually a pretty easy JRPG if you play it right. It is actually quite plausible to stumble your way to victory through luck alone. Few things about it have caused more ragequits, however, than the Nameless Scion. You're supposedly an incarnated goddess, and he DOES move slowly away from you until you're max level OR destroy Yong province when he makes a beeline for you, but if you don't pay attention to the hints that NPCs give you and run right into him, he'll kill a non-munchkiny low-level Heroine and her party like he was eating a potato chip. You are rescued by the local Hero if you lose the first time you run into him, and the second time Heaven will intervene to save your ass, but three strikes and you're out.

The thing is, this should never happen if you're paying attention. Rumors of the 'Thrice-Blessed' you pick out at the local inns will warn you where he's at, so just avoid going there directly and he'll miss you. You don't even actually need to beat him to win the game, just bring down the Elven Kingdom and crush Yong province last and Heaven will smite his sorry ass. Yong is one of the tougher fights in the game, basically a double Titan fight with Yong Shen AND Yong Liefeng so it's a good final target anyway. Some people don't like to turn on the Elves, or maybe even Yong, and it's fair to say the elves and Yong are some of the tougher fights in the game for certain builds whereas the randomized nature of the Nameless Scion can make him range from 'a really tough fight' to 'practically unbeatable unless you've designed your build to counter it'. What I'd suggest is avoiding him until you're JUST below max level and then seek him out. If he's a wimp, great. If not, adjust your equips and party for second and third fights.

Fair warning- there are some combinations like 'Philosopher King' AND Sun Jiarong as his Dragon that make him nearly an unwinnable fight with all but the cheesiest builds.

So what kind of builds can he have? He is the Thrice-Blessed, meaning he uses Binary Magic, Cultivation, and Diagram Magic. Quite often however he will focus on two of those magics at the expense of others. You want to bring equips and party members that pick at his weaknesses- if he uses Diagram Magic heavily, bring someone with 'Greater Unravel'. If he uses Cultivation, debuff him with Diagram Magic. If he uses Artifice, use 'Shatter' techniques. 'Philosopher King' is when he uses all three magics in fairly equal measure and it generally makes him a much tougher fight just because his weaknesses cover each other well and his speed increases. Overall, though, he's a standard JRPG final boss- if more lightning bruiser and less beef tank than most.

Part of the trick to the Nameless is his Dragon- each game the Scion will have one character that provides serious bonuses to his stats and will ALWAYS fight with him if not 'subverted' by toppling their province. Some aren't so terrible. Disciple Huai has the 'Loyal Shadow' effect that lets Nameless strip your buffs with his attacks, but just keep pace with rebuffing and it's fairly easy to cope. Toppling Yong province is easier said than done, but if you do it Huai leaves because he 'Stopped being paid'. LOL, guess shadows aren't actually that loyal to a dark lord, right? Kong Suizhen provides the 'One Billion Years Of Loyal Service' bonus that is pretty much just her attacking you alongside him for more DPS, but topple the Kong province and she'll have left to try to 'save her people'.

A nastier prospect is Ming Xiaoling who provides the 'Love At First Fight' bonus and will provide a serious defense bonus to the Scion. Topple the Ming province, however, and she'll leave the Scion to 'support her family'. Baenlixnaire is also one of the nastier possibilities for a Dragon, he will buff the Nameless and debuff your party with his 'Deicidal Mentor' bonus. Topple Vane province, however, and he'll leave the Scion to 'seek out the mysteries of the forgotten Age'.

The worst option for a Dragon by far is Sun Jiarong. He CANNOT be subverted, which is part of the problem. Some people have tried to sell the idea there is a 'secret method', but developers have clarified this is not the case. At any rate, by himself he does nothing special, but if he's killed the Scion gains the special 'Empowered By Fury' buff that doubles the speed of his attacks. For that reason, you should avoid AoE attacks if Sun Jiarong procs as the Nameless Scion's dragon.

Even if you manage that, Sun Jiarong will 'sacrifice his life' to prevent your final attack on the Nameless Scion, no matter how nonsensical that might be. So no matter what you do, you'll probably end up needing to endure that 'Empowered By Fury' buff on the Scion for one to four rounds of attacks. If the Scion is a Philosopher King, best-case scenario is two rounds of attacks if your party is absurdly geared for speed, which has it's own tradeoffs. More likely is that you go from facing two attacks for each one you can make to four, which is usually a game over unless you have stacking auto-resurrect treasures AND he doesn't heal himself.

The 'Golden Ending' for the game is usually considered to be if you topple every province in the Empire and the Nameless Scion while leaving the Elven Kingdom intact. If Yong is intact when he's killed, the ending credits heavily imply his mother Yong Zhengyi kills you in the aftermath, which is confusing as she appears nowhere else in the game. If she's that much of a badass, why doesn't she fight with Yong Sheng and Yong Liefeng and absolutely murder you?

Because sequel bait, obviously. I would not be surprised if the second game is based off the Golden Ending as canon and a new hero has to save the world from Yong Zhengyi, who has imprisoned or incapacitated the Heroine of the prior game somehow.​
 
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Or piracy happens. Note how we can redevelop spells that were initially added to the Diagram by other Magi.



He mentioned trading. He also mentioned 'sword point'. I suspect that we'll be doing at least as much 'trading' as trading. And even the latter is probably of the kind 'if you don't give up all your knowledge I'll tell the Empire where you are' kind.

Low level Cultivators are low on utility effects. High level ones are only moderately less versatile than Diagram Mages. As Diagram Mages are very versatile indeed, that means that Cultivation arts must be much broader than you're giving credit for. After all, Xianxia cultivation covers the whole gamut of magical powers.

And yes there's more to spell quality than Beyond or not. There's whether a spell is mastered, a process that now takes Nameless' spare time for a couple of weeks, and he couldn't previously be taught how to do by his mentor over months or years.
Just because we're going to want to push things further and insist doesn't mean that that's the standard Diagram culture. No one else has blanket immunity to Diagram spells.

Cultivation as a whole is versatile, but each individual Cultivator only gets a narrow suite of effects based on their inner world and they've only barely touched on that at Dao Cleaving and decently established it at Reality Forming while it'd be a waste of any Grand Solipsist's time to hunt liches. We're also talking about a fairly specific area here with interrogation effects, one that you're incentivized to keep secret and which makes you weaker in a fight than peers who go for more combative effects. Such a person's services aren't easily won and the people in a position to command such services don't give a shit about liches, since, you know, the liches have already lost.

The skill a spell is cast with affects its power, yes, but that is separate from spell quality. The spell itself can actually be weaker or stronger as well such that someone with the same skill and a different version gets a better or worse effect.
 
And that's why I feel using the MM point is so critical here, it lets us subvert the local powers without actually getting run out of town, or creating mortal enemies.

MM points imply that our scams are smooth, that our victims remain convinced that they came out ahead. Precisely the best kind of scam.
 
Cultivation as a whole is versatile, but each individual Cultivator only gets a narrow suite of effects based on their inner world and they've only barely touched on that at Dao Cleaving and decently established it at Reality Forming while it'd be a waste of any Grand Solipsist's time to hunt liches. We're also talking about a fairly specific area here with interrogation effects, one that you're incentivized to keep secret and which makes you weaker in a fight than peers who go for more combative effects. Such a person's services aren't easily won and the people in a position to command such services don't give a shit about liches, since, you know, the liches have already lost.

The skill a spell is cast with affects its power, yes, but that is separate from spell quality. The spell itself can actually be weaker or stronger as well such that someone with the same skill and a different version gets a better or worse effect.

If you're a Reality Forming Yong Clan Cultivator your interrogation effect is 'If I hit you your phylactery will shatter, so start talking'. Liches, after having got used to living for thousands of years, presumably are quite keen to remain doing so.

And that's why I feel using the MM point is so critical here, it lets us subvert the local powers without actually getting run out of town, or creating mortal enemies.

MM points imply that our scams are smooth, that our victims remain convinced that they came out ahead. Precisely the best kind of scam.

Yeah, it's what guarantees that the setup phase is successful and no one catches on to what we're doing.
 
[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Scam People
-[X] Spend a Mastermind Point

[X] Choose an 'expend Mastermind point' option this update for free

For the chance of an extremely good spell, I'll concede to the worthiness of this mastermind point. We're going to need to base our plan around this, though, preferably scamming and blackmailing the heck out of the Sect, with plans for (not good) fighting or (better) sneaking in if all else fails when it comes time to finish our diplomacy-plan.

Like, really, if this fails, what's the alternative? We really shouldn't fight, so some kind of sneaky way to get away from a bunch of angry cultivators and the Reality Forming leader into the dimension is also warranted.
 
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If you're a Reality Forming Yong Clan Cultivator your interrogation effect is 'If I hit you your phylactery will shatter, so start talking'. Liches, after having got used to living for thousands of years, presumably are quite keen to remain doing so.
Ah yes, it's well known that threatening terrorists with death causes them to tell you a great deal of true information about their fellow terrorists.
 
[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Scam People
-[X] Spend a Mastermind Point

[X] Choose an 'expend Mastermind point' option this update for free

For the chance of an extremely good spell, I'll concede to the worthiness of this mastermind point. We're going to need to base our plan around this, though, preferably scamming and blackmailing the heck out of the Sect, with plans for (not good) fighting or (better) sneaking in if all else fails when it comes time to finish our diplomacy-plan.

Like, really, if this fails, what's the alternative? We really shouldn't fight, so some kind of sneaky way to get away from a bunch of angry cultivators and the Reality Forming leader into the dimension is also warranted.

We got a really good one earlier that relies on the scam phase going smoothly.
 
We got a really good one earlier that relies on the scam phase going smoothly.

I'm not entirely certain what we've decided on, so bear with me. Are we going with Alratan's plan, or do you have something else in mind?

EDIT: Given lack of response, I'm just going to assume Alratan's plan and head to sleep. Too dazed as it is to keep up.
 
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Fanwork##1588 Words

I'm probably completely wrong about what is going on here (too many variables and possibilities to take into account), but it's fun to make guesses.

Omake: "Tightening Noose"

'Be a good child or the big bad lich will come and get you', parents would tell their scared offspring in hushed whispers. The undead monstrosities were the monsters under the bed, the boogeymen in the closet, the hidden danger in the dark that everyone had learned to live with in Southern Vane but never really forgot. For all that the Empire had conquered Vane, its Titans didn't deem it worth their while to clean up Diagram's remnants and left it up to the local cultivators how to deal with the leftovers. Most of the time, these dealings involved long periods of uneventful waiting punctuated by brief spikes of bloody, unremitting warfare, mostly in the form of precision strikes at the most vulnerable targets.

Sometimes though, there were extenuating circumstances that forced individuals from both sides to put their grievances aside and... cooperate, however little they enjoyed such arrangements.

"-and while the Yong heir had promised to pay off the loan to the bank at some point, it doesn't really help the city's current situation, Patriarch," the Elder grimaced after finishing his report.

The other Bleak Raven Elders exchanged weary glances as they realized that Deplian's precarious state had just gotten even less stable. Resources in the area were becoming increasingly scarce and the competition between the local sects had gotten even more ruthless and cutthroat as a result. They'd thought that things could hardly get any worse at this point, but it seemed life was full of surprises.

"Very well, I understand," Sect Master Javin sighed and tried not to let his own fatigue show. "I will attempt to speed up the negotiations with Duathlixnaur. If things go well, we might yet turn their unfortunate bankruptcy to our advantage."

Nobody looked convinced by that, their trust in the lich's promises barely existent even after all the help he'd given them already, but a thin thread of hope was better than none at all, so the Elders said their farewells and filed out of the cave to continue their tasks.

Only when he was sure he was alone did Javin allow himself a despairing laugh. The disparity couldn't have been more obvious if the Yong heir had slapped him in the face with it. Where Deplian's sects had to fight and scramble over mere crumbs, the Nameless heir was afforded all the resources he wanted without lifting a finger for it. Had he still been a young man, the sheer unfairness of it all would have infuriated him, but long experience had taught Javin that such resentment was meaningless and wouldn't get him anywhere.

It was better to focus on things that he could do something about, like getting a better bargain out of the lich. He'd already reaped certain rewards, but Javin knew it was just a taste of what Duathlixnaur had to offer. With the lich's help, it wasn't impossible to claw their way to the top of the city and maybe even beyond, though such dreams were still far off.

The question why the lich had actually approached them with that proposal was something he had no proper answer to yet - the undead monstrosities weren't known for being particularly accommodating or friendly - and it burned Javin that he didn't know why Duathlixnaur asked for their help rather than turn to the other liches for assistance, but he wouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.

As long as the lich didn't betray him-

"My vault's anchor will soon be ready for transportation," a dry, ancient and all-too-familiar voice resounded in his ears. "Have you decided whether you are going to fulfill your end of the agreement, or should I start looking for alternative arrangements?"

Javin suppressed the instinctive urge to lash out when Duathlixnaur suddenly appeared next to him, used to the sadistic thing's attempts to unbalance him. In a straight fight he'd win ten times out of ten, especially after having broken through to Reality Forming, but the undead's mastery of Space was such that unless Javin maintained his utmost focus, it was all too easy for the invisible and intangible lich to hide from his senses.

Turning to face Duathlixnaur, Javin tried to look for any chinks in its armor, any signs of impatience or weakness, but it was as still and patient as ever, its lifeless body almost devoid of the usual clues he typically used to assess people. There were probably habits and mannerisms even undeath hadn't scoured from the lich's mind, but the few short months they'd known each other in a personal capacity was not enough time to recognize those with any certainty.

"Please refrain from insulting my honor," he answered coolly, "we've prepared as much as we could and are going to move the anchor as soon as we have your permission. Though as you've likely heard," Javing grumbled, only receiving a mocking chuckle in response, "there have been some minor complications in the city."

Duathlixnaur watched him silently, considering the implications.

"As long as those complications don't come to our doorstep, it's none of our business, partner," the lich replied at last, spitting out the last word like a curse. "And should it come to that, I have a few surprises ready. If that is all?"

Its lack of proper facial muscles did little to detract from the bloodthirsty leer.

Javin briefly considered trying to ask about the Yong heir's Ring Artifact he'd heard about in his underlings' reports, as the lich undoubtedly had much more experience with identifying such things, but passed the idea up as soon as it occurred to him. He had too little to go on aside from the Ring being seemingly striking enough to make it into those reports, but there were too many ancient relics in the world to bother chasing after every mention.

"Yes, that is all," he bit out at empty air, Duathlixnaur having disappeared without even waiting for an answer to that question.



It was unwise to antagonize the Cultivators after going through all the effort to ally with this sect and making plans to elevate them above their peers, Duathlixnaur knew, but centuries of blood and hate were not so easily ignored. Had his position been anything less than desperate, he would have never decided to do such a ridiculous thing, but needs must.

The library's air was dry and clear, the moon sigils shedding just enough light for his dead eyes as the lich flipped through page after page, searching for answers that just wouldn't come. It was an endless chase with no end in sight and a multitude of deceptive results. There were tantalizing hints in the ancient books, and perhaps the right solution hid somewhere between the lines of the mythical stories, but it was impossible to filter it out from all the nonsense.

At last Duathlixnaur put the book away in frustration, leaning back in the chair and staring into the distance with unseeing eyes.

Death. Mortality. Cessation of existence. It had been a nebulous and far-off concept for such a long time that it was difficult to once more contemplate the possibility. But the reports had been too numerous to safely ignore what was staring him right in the face.

The last remnants of Diagram were dying. And it wasn't the slow yet inevitable decline they'd been forced to endure during the last millenniums, no. Unexplained disasters, unlikely accidents, continuous setbacks... his peers, both allies and enemies, had started to disappear one after another over the last months, monstrosities that had survived the Cultivator purges meeting their demise with terrifying regularity.

This couldn't be written off as a coincidence anymore, and while Duathlixnaur would have loved to blame it on the Cultivators, he knew that however powerful they were, - and it had been power enough to shatter and scatter the Diagram back in the days, - subtle they were not. If they'd wanted to finish the job, all this would have been unnecessary, the involvement of one of their Titans would have been enough.

No, much as it pained him to admit it, this pattern had all the hallmarks of Diagram's insidious poison. Perhaps one of his brethren had finally gone mad and decided to exterminate them all, or maybe there were other forces at work, but Duathlixnaur couldn't trust a single one of them anymore, too great was the danger that he'd only doom himself by extending a hand.

Fortunately, he'd recognized it early enough that he had started his own preparations in advance. It hadn't been too difficult to find a sect desperate enough to accept his help among his cultivating neighbors, and helping their Patriarch break through to the next stage had served as sufficient proof of his intentions, so he was set to move the anchor into the new abode soon.

Duathlixnaur would still be able to flee should they decide to renege on their promise, he wasn't yet so far gone as to trust them completely with his safety, but he trusted them enough not to cooperate with other liches, which would have to be enough.

His honed intuition was still telling him that something was wrong though, and in the rare moments when the allowed his mind to relax, visions of terrible blue light haunted his thoughts, which was why the lich had been spending his days scouring the library for clues.

With a rueful shake of his head, Duathlixnaur stood up and moved away to finish the last preparations.

Perhaps the paranoia was getting to him.
 
We got a really good one earlier that relies on the scam phase going smoothly.

The main risks, of course, is that there's actually nothing there, or that the Scam phase doesn't incorporate the broader plan of rolling the entire sect.

There's also the cost. Rihaku's points about how expensive this is in time if Nameless doesn't optimise his schedule are well taken. It would be pretty soul destroying if we go through all this and discover that our lich is in another sub-realm.
 
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The main risks, of course, is that there's actually nothing there, or that the Scam phase doesn't incorporate the broader plan of rolling the entire sect.

There's also the cost. Rihaku's points about how costly this is in time if Nameless doesn't optimise his schedule are well taken. It would be pretty soul destroying if we go through all this and discover that our lich is in another sub-realm.

Charmed Life is going to fire if we do things this way. The last time we leaned on it, we got a zero cost initiation into an Ascendant Sign.

Even if what you fear is true, we won't walk away empty handed. Because whatever is here, it's enough to get a Sect Leader of Reality Forming to go all in with a lockdown, using his Sect as muscle.
 
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Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Unelemental on Mar 24, 2018 at 3:48 PM, finished with 300 posts and 37 votes.
 
Charmed Life is going to fire if we do things this way. The last time we leaned on it, we got a zero cost initiation into an Ascendant Sign.

Even if what you fear is true, we won't walk away empty handed.

That's a fair point. Part of this is that this is one first fair sized con, shaking down an entire sect lead by a Reality Forming Cultivator to scam them into cooperating and then, ideally, into subservience. Yes, it's only one small city in the middle of nowhere, but we have to work up to taking on the big boys, and get some practice with working on people much more powerful than us.

It would actually be a quite nice follow on to go from here, with recent practice, to the Court of Vane to scam the winner of the Legacy zone out of their prize.
 
[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Scam People
[X] +40% Beyond Point Progress

We need beyond points. We're always going to need beyond points. We should probably get beyond points.
 
I'd recommend that people don't take scam and direct if they don't also take Mastermind points, as it's a vastly more fragile plan in that case.

And we always want Beyond Points. We don't always need them more than other things on the table. In this case, we want to ensure that our time is well spent, and do our best to ensure that we cleanly get access to the lich.

This also isn't a whole beyond point, it's a fraction of one, that's arguably worth less to us than a free mastermind point based on what we know of the conversion rates. There's no point saving up Beyond Points so we can buy extra special spells from the lich if that means we mess up finding them in the first place.
 
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A bit late, but I'd like some clarifications before making my choice

@Rihaku
1) "Immediately receive your Mastermind Point for the month"
This means that we get the Mastermind Point sooner, but there is no net gain of Mastermind Points in the long run, correct?
2) Any reason we can't do a multi-stage loan? If I understand correctly it'll take some time for us to burn through all our money, and that should give the bank branch enough time to get more cash from the other branches.
3) If we scam people, will we be able to tie that in with getting rumors about potential liches/the Ravens?
 
I'd been thinking that maybe we should both take a loan and scam - i.e. use the money from the bank to speed up our scamming process and then pay it back, but I'm a bit stumped on how to go about it.
 
2) Any reason we can't do a multi-stage loan? If I understand correctly it'll take some time for us to burn through all our money, and that should give the bank branch enough time to get more cash from the other branches.

I think the option explains that Spoiled prevents Nameless from doing anything else from draining them dry because he has a rich waifu to impress.
 
I'd recommend that people don't take scam and direct if they don't also take Mastermind points, as it's a vastly more fragile plan in that case.

And we always want Beyond Points. We don't always need them more than other things on the table. In this case, we want to ensure that our time is well spent, and do our best to ensure that we cleanly get access to the lich.

This also isn't a whole beyond point, it's a fraction of one, that's arguably worth less to us than a free mastermind point based on what we know of the conversion rates. There's no point saving up Beyond Points so we can buy extra special spells from the lich if that means we mess up finding them in the first place.

Yeah, he straight up told us that some spells are worth more to us than a Beyond Point. He also said the Lich Lord here was the creator of one of our spells. Ones that are all quite impressive.
 
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