DarkKing98
Certified Village Idiot
- Location
- USA
Didn't realize I'd get to use this so soon!
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Even Further Beyond [Complete]
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
DonutAttack
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- The factory of pastries
If you're going to lay an accusation at my feet, I expect some evidence.
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that Lichdom did double our Cultivation speed, despite earlier hopes, as Nameless isn't willing to optimise his time to that degree:
It seems that lichdom has mainly given Nameless more time to be spoiled in, not to Cultivate.
It would be nice if we could chose which Lich with what skills to find. We can't. We simply get what we stumble over.
Given that the goals of the Diagram Liches seems to have been magical terrorism against mortals, esoteric attack modes don't seem at all optimal for that. Diagram magi had city bursting spells, those are quite capable of doing the job.
It's a pretty strong indication that he's going to mono-focus. As seen by the fact that Nameless is apparently indeed mono-focusing on Diagram magic and how to get it, and not doing things like Cultivating in his off hours.
DonutAttack
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- The factory of pastries
...we really need to get rid of Spoiled. That's a time-multiplier as effective as any acceleration! But then again, he could've just increased his time not doing anything proportionally now that he doesn't sleep. He might've been just inefficient before with the proportion of time spent training, and we just applied that proportion to a greater pie. Still not good: we need to get rid of spoiled.
That's also because Nameless is lazy and can only do one thing at a time, which we should try to correct.
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Rihaku
The Internet
Spoiled contributes, but it's hardly the only factor. Unless you think you can do 168 hour workweeks for twenty subjective years in a row, you don't have any room to complain!
And he's not lazy, he worked 22 hours on day on Diagram spells for over a subjective year just now... he's not Ulyssian, but he's far more productive than, say, Seram in terms of long term work ethic.
And he's not lazy, he worked 22 hours on day on Diagram spells for over a subjective year just now... he's not Ulyssian, but he's far more productive than, say, Seram in terms of long term work ethic.
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I think the vote to lay Cultivation and Artifice aside and focus on Diagram Magic in the way he has is the kind of thing that seriously exacerbates Spoiled. It was a vote to avoid doing the hard work to develop his own abilities from the ground up and to instead have other people give him the fruits of their labours.
The vote to loot the Yong Bank is the same. If we want Nameless to stop being Spoiled, and avoid the risk that Spoiled gets even worse, we need to have him actually work for his gains.
DonutAttack
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- The factory of pastries
Clearly you've never heard of investment banking. The beatings shall continue until morale improves!
This convinces me to not switch my vote to taking a loan, since it seems to proc Spoiled. But I'm still utterly against the spending of mastermind points when BP are so useful, even if we don't spend them now. I think 0.4 BP is worth more than a low chance at a treasure. I also disagree with your analysis that focusing on Diagram for a few months somehow makes Spoiled worse, given that he's traveling far and wide to make it happen.
Probably only because they're Diagram spells and he's a total geek for them. It'll be hard to get him to do other things as effectively.
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He's teleporting around. He also relied on Xiaoling to do the legwork of finding the first clue.
This seems like an unanticipated flaw in a build that was designed to maximise Cultivation speed. It was neglected to make Nameless grow into the kind of person that enjoyed Cultivation.
That's probably something that we can fix when we enter the Dao Cleaving stage though.
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DonutAttack
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- The factory of pastries
That reminds me. Baenlixnaire mentions Nameless has a Dao of the Diagram? It clearly manifests when Nameless studies the Diagram without cultivating at all, but does it get stronger with Dao Cleaving? Could this be another synergy?
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I suspect that Baenlixnaire probably didn't really comprehend what a Dao was, given that he wasn't a Cultivator, just used it as a metaphor. Just as Diagram Magi couldn't use divination to find resources for Cultivation if they weren't Cultivators, I suspect the same to be true about their understanding of the nature of high level Cultivation.
I however suspect that completing the Philosopher's Stone would have improved pretty much everything that Nameless could do.
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Take Out a Loan
[X] +40% Beyond Point Progress
The Nameless should not be expected to spend his every fucking hour optimizing like a madmen. He simply lacks Odyssial's inhuman will, like everyone else and he is spoiled in addition to that.
Honestly, he is doing far better than i expected. and I for one is glad he is not spending all his time training, it simply makes him more human.
If you wanted an even better work ethic, you should have chosen to train with Mom, who would have taught Nameless self discipline and shit.
[X] Take Out a Loan
[X] +40% Beyond Point Progress
The Nameless should not be expected to spend his every fucking hour optimizing like a madmen. He simply lacks Odyssial's inhuman will, like everyone else and he is spoiled in addition to that.
Honestly, he is doing far better than i expected. and I for one is glad he is not spending all his time training, it simply makes him more human.
If you wanted an even better work ethic, you should have chosen to train with Mom, who would have taught Nameless self discipline and shit.
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- Location
- Simi Valley, CA, United States
Which is why I paired it with Direct Investigation. We come away from it with no debt and can generate MM points directly. I'm assuming/hoping the next update sees us interacting with the opposing forces and only with the Lich only after that. We need time.
We should remember our true objectives at this point.
1. Be strong enough to keep the Ring safe
2. Acquire as much power as possible before we turn 18 and the Heroine goes active.
We have 42 objective months remaining.
Cultivating right now is not the best use of our time.
Consider this: with all the multipliers we currently have and encountering no other difficulties, it would take 18.7 months to go from Low to Peak Dao Cleaving. We'll have to do it twice in order to make our Philosopher King artifact, so that would be at least 37 out of 42 months spent on nothing but Cultivation.
Now, if we researched Something like the Sarcophagus (assuming we can't trade for it) that took a (completely ass-pulled, dunno how long it will take) 12 objective months, then we could go from Low to High Dao Cleaving twice in another 7.5 objective months. That would be 19.5 months out of 42 to get to the same point that Cultivating early would take us, while knowing another spell to boot.
I hope this illustrates why focus on acquiring high Cultivation speed multipliers before actually Cultivating is the most beneficial course of action.
1. Be strong enough to keep the Ring safe
2. Acquire as much power as possible before we turn 18 and the Heroine goes active.
We have 42 objective months remaining.
Cultivating right now is not the best use of our time.
Consider this: with all the multipliers we currently have and encountering no other difficulties, it would take 18.7 months to go from Low to Peak Dao Cleaving. We'll have to do it twice in order to make our Philosopher King artifact, so that would be at least 37 out of 42 months spent on nothing but Cultivation.
Now, if we researched Something like the Sarcophagus (assuming we can't trade for it) that took a (completely ass-pulled, dunno how long it will take) 12 objective months, then we could go from Low to High Dao Cleaving twice in another 7.5 objective months. That would be 19.5 months out of 42 to get to the same point that Cultivating early would take us, while knowing another spell to boot.
I hope this illustrates why focus on acquiring high Cultivation speed multipliers before actually Cultivating is the most beneficial course of action.
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OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Incoming tally
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Alright, looking at points people have brought up and reflecting further, there's really no need for the Unloved Child to do something as base as work for money. Let his work go towards binding his Lieutenants to him in the darkness and to winning the secrets of the world with silver tongue and cold steel.
[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Take Out a Loan
[X] +40% Beyond Point Progress
[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Take Out a Loan
[X] +40% Beyond Point Progress
We're not going to get Dao Cleaving done.
The best way to get more modifiers is probably to finish fleshing out the build that we have. If we can master Greater Refining and cultivate enough to make three artifacts:
One to boost Greater Refining
One to boost Potentiation
One to boost Quickening.
Then our cultivation speed will hopefully go from our current x6 to x24 or even more.
We have options for massive Cultivation modifiers in hand, waiting to be deployed, we just need to Cultivate more to access them. This is a case where investment in Cultivation massively compounds. We can't keep infinitely delaying Cultivation, as our Artificing is gated behind it.
The longer we wait, this less time we have to multiply, so the less valuable multipliers get.
Well, given that he was unloved, I suppose abandoning his father's teachings does make sense. It was a bit of a waste of a build option at this point though, if we're not willing to socially interact with people because it blocks us benefiting from Chronomancy for months.
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Well I wasn't in favor of Throne or Butterfly at all and preferred other plans over Father, Way With Words and the Lich Unlock, so I'm not gonna shoulder the responsibility of aggressively following through on those capabilities. Do note that we have the Lackeys which we are investing in through those options, however, and they're both proper recurring side-characters with their own unique advantages.
RedV
Refuelling
- Location
- Right here
It probably refers to dao in the sense of acquiring (or buying, in Nameless' case) a skill so high it is a step beyond mere skill, and more a form of art.
To give an example, in Zhuangzi, we see cook Ding who has cut ox meat for years. He is so skilled he can do so without looking with his eyes and doesn't need to replace his knife for nineteen years. (Normal cooks get it replaced once an year, according to him) That is referred to as dao, as is, say, catching insects very well.
What Baenlixnaire refers to as dao of Diagram is a legit way of describing how good Nameless is with Diagram, though it wasn't earned properly.
Whether this is the dao referred to in Dao Cleaving, you decide.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
To be fair, if we're doing all of that, we're not actually progressing much towards True Alchemist--which is the benchmark we should be gunning for in my opinion.
I do agree though that a perfect scam + direct approach is an excellently synergetic approach though. The example you gave about mob-busting is a great example--like, you can't just park in the middle of nowhere and then get by without any resources--the Sect here has to have a logistics train if they're going to set up camp in a given area, and Scamming is the route that best lets us identify it, and shake things up in such a matter that when we approach, we actually have decent information and can offer them something they want that's cheap for us--but valuable for them.
Perfect Scam means we're not holding the bag, which means that when we approach them, they won't know it's us who's responsible for their headaches--and if we can make things bothersome enough for their middle management, we can approach and they'll be willing to fall over themselves to not risk pissing off the Sect Patriarch--win win.
A Mastermind Point in exchange for a shot at scamming our way through a good sized Sect? Plundering them for treasures and resources and walking away clean? That's not a small price--especially as we get ourselves out of debt with this approach too. Yeah, Beyond Points are also valuable--but in this case, it's something of a barbed trap. "I'll give you a portion of something valuable right now in exchange for taking no efforts to actually improve your chances of success with the events you're taking right now."
It's precious material that's utterly useless at helping us navigate this situation. Everything else is valuable to some extent. One lets us create a stronger Grand Diagram down the line (Using it to build a Vault would be devastatingly potent for instance), one makes it easier for us to detect other Lich Strongholds (Byakugan can now detect Diagram manipulation), and another gives us the chance to thread the proverbial needle when we're going to do something fancy and automatically get the best possible outcome.
It's like.
"Why are we bothering to investigate this kind of thing if we're not willing to commit to it?"
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OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Let's get some return on our Loyalty:
[x]Direct Investigation
[x]Mooch off Xiaoling
[x] +40% Beyond Point Progress
DonutAttack
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- The factory of pastries
Ah, but the question is whether it's worth a Beyond point, especially given they stack in efficiency. There will always be a tempting opportunity to enhance the short-term with a Beyond Point, and, knowing this tendency, Rihaku made it so that Beyond Points get better the more that are used at a time. It's up to us to ignore what's in front of us (which is really hard since we know exactly what we're getting) in exchange for greater power in the long term.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
We aren't actually in debt. We just don't have much money right now.