Even Further Beyond [Complete]

10% in general is very negligible. If you want to improve spells, just get 0.4BP and then Go Beyond in some spell later on.

There is some utility in having rare material to inscribe your Grand Diagrams on, but i don't think it's enough to make it competitive against bonus Beyond Points.
 
I'm still salty after failing Truthseeker and after seeing how prone we are to chase shinies, but I'm just going to have to deal with it. Win some, lose some, make do with the best you got. I'm just going to ask you to please don't generalize like this when we literally just spent 3BP on artifice. It kills the atmosphere and messes with the quest. And it's not like Philosopher-King disappeared, just like Truth is still there.

That's the nature of quests and also what's fun about them: we don't get everything we want, but that doesn't mean the process can't be just as fun.

That's what makes it so disappointing. It seemed like we were about to finally live the synergistic promise that all the investment in Diagram Magic was claimed to be all about, and then what was voted for was:

Now that you have brought your Cultivation and Artifice levels up to par, it is time to re-focus on the centerpiece of your power: the magic of the Diagram.
If you assume that what was voted for is what Nameless is actually doing, then the dream of a synergistic build is mostly gone now. That approach doesn't consider Diagram Magic the centre of Nameless' build. It thinks all three magics harmoniously combine to create a greater whole.

And Truthseeker losing didn't have Nameless adopt an attitude that largely precludes investing it it. This option, I think does largely preclude Philosopher King. Those three points in artifice may well be down the drain now, as we've chosen to commit to Diagram magic so probably won't have the ability to create many more artifacts.
 
Hm, I'm seeing quite a few approaches here based on what's been said, but none of them quite satisfy me:

*I really need more ideas

Plan 1: Diagram-Specialist Scam
Pretend to be a specialist in Diagram Magic with no Cultivation and a bunch of Artifacts. Mention we're from Yong as a form of additional credentials, and get access to the Dimension that way, before backstabbing last moment.

Strengths: Element of surprise if fighting happens. Less conspicuous than the other options.
Weaknesses: We'll be watched heavily. We're limited to the confines of our role unless we decide to fight. Will likely be refused if something fishy is happening. We're going to have to come out of the Dimension sooner or later,, and there'll be a reckoning then. I'm not actually sure if we can masquerade as a Diagram mage only @Rihaku Can we?

Plan 2: Young Master Assault

Leverage our status as scions of Yong and Ming to bulldoze our way in through our Clans' names. Suizhen can also be incorporated if we can bluff she's an important part of Kong.

Strengths: Very hard to refuse. Unlikely to be attacked, given our families would wipe our their pathetic sect for daring to attack us. Will likely quickly convince mid-tier officers.
Weaknesses: Not conspicuous at all, given the strength of our names. May convince them we're there to punish them if they're actually doing illegal things, turning them hostile.

Plan 3: Fight our way in!
Just kill/scare away everyone in our sight and get to the Dimension.

Strengths: Direct. Most effective if Reality Forming master is weakened, as speculated.
Weaknesses: The Reality Forming master, if not weakened, could incapacitate us. It's still 3 of us vs a bunch of them.

N.B.:
And Truthseeker losing didn't have Nameless adopt an attitude that largely precludes investing it it. This option, I think does largely preclude Philosopher King
What was so worrying to me about losing Truthseeker would be that if we don't commit then, we would never commit. Given our recent spending patterns, that fear has realized quite readily. So while you may talk of Nameless's own focus, I'm just as resigned with our resolve to get Truth. We can both commiserate on EFB options now ;)
 
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Felt like castigating myself for ... reasons. So, analysis.
There was something whimsical, yet deeply melancholy about the land. Northern Yong as-yet lived its high noon, but the sun had long set on Southern Vane. Outside the extravagant Ruby Court itself, the region sported very few Cultivator cities, for any mid-sized settlement that failed to contain a Dao Cleaving-or-higher expert was under the remote but menacing prospect of Diagram Lich attack.
Hmm. What exactly are the Diagram Liches doing that for? Just general spite+vengeance style motivations, they want some test subjects, both, or something else?
Yong Clan headhunters of the Reality Forming stage could slay Diagram terrorists without locating their phylacteries, but few other paths of Cultivation demonstrated so comprehensive an offensive ability, and Northern Yong was literally halfway across the world.
Heavy Counter OP, even those degenerate versions not used by a Titan, I guess?
For low-level Cultivators, a locale not worth the risk of exploitation, despite its relative abundance of resources. For the mighty, a distant and politically marginalized zone not worth the time to explore. For Nameless - an immortal psuedolich, immune to offensive Diagrams, with no vital organs in his flesh body - it was nearly perfect. It was likely that other Diagram liches believed the same. If he dug deeply enough, he expected to find a Diagram stronghold in a pocket dimension anchored here, containing peers and contemporaries of his ancient mentor. Whether they received him fearfully or well, he would extract what secrets he could before they perished.
So it's full of mid-level guys, should mostly be like Soul Chrysalis and Dao Cleaving? Considering we have the Ring, the Liches might be pissed at us for chopping time off their lifespans (deathspans?), but that boost to social? Don't discount the possibility of a female lich who likes broody youngsters!
(somehow, the fleshless hypothetical fangirl Lich is less disturbing than a normal fangirl. Mostly because she can't jump Nameless.)
"Xiaoling doesn't get along well with others," he said offhandedly to Suizhen. "When we get there, hang back at first and let me handle her."
Others meaning literally anyone who is not Nameless. What a understatement.
"I certainly can't rely on you to protect us against scams," he needled gently. Suizhen stiffened, embarrassed.

"S-sir! You could have told me that those 'Spiritwood fruits' were but normal cherries! Does not your Ring allow you to see through all manner of illusion?"
HOW CUTE.jpg
Bullying Suizhen is Good Civ. Good work, Nameless.
"But we're already low on money as it is..." Suizhen slumped. "Sir, you're consuming so many materials on your own, is it really alright to spend so much on me as well? At this rate I'll never work off my debt! To say nothing of your Quickening fee..."

"That is the plan," he nodded sagely. "But really, Suizhen, two centuries' wages is nothing. Anything less than a millennium is an eyeblink in the life of a Titan, and I'm sure your rates will increase as you grow in power."
Debt Slavery is apparently a really strong scam, and Nameless is playing off its seriousness to Suizhen, but what if someone comes in and offers to pay off her debts? Someone like... the Heroine?
(Nah, the Heroine can't poach our carefully nurtured minions like that, you say? Don't discount it yet!)
He paused. "I still can't believe you've never eaten a cherry before. Does the house of Kong truly suffer from such grievous deprivation? Is his tyrannical denial of foodstuffs the reason you want to off your old Patriarch?"
I mean, Zang Kong made the Overgrowth, so clearly his priorities lie in other places rather than feeding his experimental fodder. Not surprising, really, such a visionary can't be bothered to care for the welfare of the common folk, only for SCIENCE cultivation and PROGRESS power consolidation.
"Unloved child!" She shrieked gleefully, gathering up her skirts and rushing down to embrace him. "It's been far too long."

"Spoiled brat," he said, returning her hug affectionately. "And how are you? Not suffering too terribly, I hope."
Oh man, these nicknames, this banter. No wonder she doesn't have any other friends.
Her ears had been allowed to grow, he noted, and were now disguised by a minor but true Artifact, a thin golden choker. A product of her mysterious mother?
What, were they trimming her ears or something?
"I'm put out," she replied, doe-like eyes flashing. "Not only were you late, forcing me to subsist within this hovel, but now I see you've picked up a stray! Why didn't you mention her in your letter?"

Imagining anime eyes. Clearly, Xiaoling needs to be bullied. Only then can more cuteness and despair be born.
"She's my bodyguard," he replied, amused. "The genius, if you recall. Suizhen broke through into Soul Chrysalis last month, a day before her fifteenth birthday."

"Ah," Xiaoling sniffed disdainfully. "It's good she's blessed with something. The girl is rather plain."

"I find her eyes very striking," he teased, turning and waving to Suizhen.
I see how she was going to demoralize the other girls. Bad Xiaoling! Only we get to bulli!
Xiaoling, if he were to be frank, was indeed a heart-stopping beauty, even among the noble ladies of the Ming Court. Her light brown hair, pale green eyes, and near-translucent skin made her partial elven heritage very clear; that heritage, in conjunction with her intimidating looks and ferocious personality, had driven away most of the would-be allies and admirers in their peer group.
Don't be swayed, Nameless! Keep your eyes on the prize: the more females that delude themselves into thinking they have a chance, the more cannon fodder you can throw at the heroine!
She had been a generous and gregarious child, openly disclosing her half-elf ancestry to him when they'd first met, but the official story was that she was only one-eighth elven (an acceptable degree of deviance for an heiress of the Trade Throne). Many of her friends of lower stature, to whom she had also disclosed the truth, had been assassinated in order to maintain the pretense. The distraught Xiaoling was subsequently spoiled by her apologetic father, and she learned that a combative stance towards others was safer for all involved. Habit became character, and Xiaoling's original open-hearted motivations had perhaps been forgotten along the way.
Oh. So she was deredere but didn't understand infosec, and thus, everybody but Yong among her friends got disposed of. Then, she became himedere.
Clearly, if Xiaoling becomes untouchable, i.e. A TITAN, then she won't have to be himedere anymore!
Sidequest Get!
"Eyes of Kong," Xiaoling said, studying his bodyguard. Her own eyes narrowed in response. "And of that purity grade... I recognize her. She's from the Sui family branch, isn't she? I thought Zang Kong had exterminated them for treason."
You know, maybe you shouldn't put too much stock in Zang Kong's public announcements. I bet he knows about infosec. Wait, can you really reveal your shameful half-elf nature at Titanhood then, Xiaoling, if even Zang Kong uses infosec? Oh well. Sidequest Lost.
"It was some kind of experiment, from what I've gathered," Nameless replied. "But yes, treason against one's Marquis was the official story. Suizhen wasn't implicated, her parents were."
... Guess Zang Kong doesn't know shit about infosec then. Sidequest Re-Get!
"Enough about her," he said sharply, "What about me? And more importantly - the presents you've surely bought for me. Let's get to it! Emperor knows I only put up with you for your money..."

"Oh, that reminds me!" Xiaoling squealed, slapping a hand against his torso. "I found a new palanquin that's absolutely divine! You simply must see it, I've had an exhibition built on the 37th floor. You'll never guess where I dredged this up..."

Nameless beckoned Suizhen over and headed into the hotel-fortress. It was good to be back in civilization, he mused, if only for a spell.
... Nameless, are you a Gold Digger? It's fine even if you are, don't worry, your Fangirls will happily be scammed out of everything they own by you!
Xiaoling is surprisingly genki. Himedere are usually more cold and in control? Blame it on hormones or something.
... For a spell, you say? Shit! We missed a pun! If we'd only picked Kleinvarr's Greater Refining, that could have been that spell!
"...And you must be the bodyguard!" Xiaoling said sweetly, but with an air of appraisal. It was some hours into the tour, and the first time she'd acknowledged Suizhen's existence.

Somewhat taken aback, Suizhen merely nodded.

"What a delightful outfit," Xiaoling continued, stalking a semi-circle around her newest victim. "It looks so... practical."

"Thanks!" Suizhen perked up. "I really like it. Yours is beautiful too, but how do you fight in heels?"

"Oh, you poor thing," Xiaoling shook her head consolingly. "That's what a change of outfits is for. I suppose you mustn't have had much opportunity for that. Don't worry, we must all play to our strengths... your case is simply more literal than others'."

"Um..." Suizhen faltered, somewhat confused. "I, I guess? I mean, I'm happy to be strong?"

"Of course you are, dear, it's not like he hired you for the conversation," Xiaoling dismissed, turning back to Nameless.

"You know she's going to be carrying our luggage," Nameless pointed out.
Away, foul Xiaoling. Only we can bully Suizhen. Luckily, Suizhen understands about zero of what you're saying, so she's fine. Note that we're defending Suizhen slightly here. Don't anger the loot-holders, or you might find your loot lost, after all!
"All the more important that she be strong," Xiaoling replied airily. "And now, Unloved Child: I have been an absolutely wonderful hostess to you, catered to your every want, anticipated your every need-"

He nodded. "Yes, everything has been perfect despite our being forced to live in a hovel. Good job!" He gave her a cheesy thumbs-up.

Xiaoling rolled her eyes. "I'm adrift in the winds of your flattery. But have you really not gotten anything for me?" She pouted beseechingly.

He thought for a moment, then indicated himself with a flourish. "Ta-da! It's me, your only friend!"

She sniffled. "You wound me so deeply..."

"I'm my father's son," he admitted. "Scum of the earth, the worst dregs of Yong."

"Absolutely heartless," she accused.

"The Mountain's Refuse, they call us. To press against us is to sink into trash."

Xiaoling snorted and he pulled her into a hug. "The truth is," he whispered, "I did get you something. But it's so much better than the crap you've gotten me that I haven't felt like bringing it out. A giant gold-plated Diagram, really? So, if you want to see it, you'll have to do me a favor."
Begging for presents, really? I guess she's still pretty young, and Spoiled at that.
Note that Xiaoling is surprisingly physically affectionate? Guess it's because we're her only friend, and thus we get the deredere bits.
Another note that we're pressing against her in a hug after mentioning sinking into trash. Imagine Nameless as a Garbador or something, and Xiaoling's slightly flailing as she's sinking in?
"You didn't like the Diagram?" She whispered concernedly.

"I love the Diagram," he reassured, "but it's still nowhere near as spectacular as my gift. Therefore I'll need that favor."

"Well," she said with mock umbrage, "my wish is your command, then."

"Be nicer to Suizhen."

"You ask too much."

"I didn't say to be nice. Just... a medium amount nicer. Can you do that? For me?"

"Begging for mercy on her behalf?"

"That's right."

"Hmph. I suppose if it's a request from my... only friend," she said haughtily, "then in... desperation not to lose your friendship, I must accede."
Xiaoling is seeming ever more needy in my head. If we up her loyalty enough, she'll probably develop a dependency on us or something. Also, Nameless has some wheedling skills. Harem Management is in your future! If we even manage to acquire a waifu in this quest. If Fate doesn't off her as soon as we hit 18.
"Just as planned," he said smugly. She swatted him on the arm.

"Ow!" Xiaoling looked at her hand. "You monstrous beast, you've hurt me. Did you complete that flesh-reinforcing Diagram you were dreaming about?"

"I learned to Cultivate," he said. "And, I discovered a stage between Ego Barrier and Organ Refining. Diagram Mages can access it."

"You what?"


"Don't worry, half-elves can access it too."
I see she doesn't have too much experience with our BS Thrice-Great synergies. She will, though. She will.
Last time, the winning votes were [X] Liches, [X] Xiaoling Cultivation Buff, and [X] Spend a Beyond Point. You now have 1 (and change) Beyond Point(s).

Xiaoling has attained Beyond Ego Barrier and has promised to be nicer to Suizhen. We'll see how that holds up. She's also done some preliminary fieldwork on this area, mostly by paying off the local Sects to dish out the gossip on their competitors. As it is, it appears that a probable Lich stronghold has been discovered by the Bleak Ravens sect, and their newly-ascended Reality Forming Patriarch has taken up residence in the subterranean vault adjacent to the suspected pocket dimension. No outside information has leaked on his activities in the vault, but he seems determined not to leave. Bleak Ravens Elders and high-ranked officers have been seen patrolling the area and fighting desperately to intercept any attempts to reach and potentially disrupt him.

The Bleak Ravens practice a form of Forbidden Cultivation that allows for rapid Stage breakthroughs in exchange for a weakened core. Still, you don't believe you can contest a Reality Forming master on prepared ground, no matter how subpar his foundation is.
... Let's say each of his stages is worth like .75 of a normal stage, he's at like 3.75. It's probably safer to assume he's around High-Peak Dao Cleaving overall. Ah, if only we'd taken Crown, 1 touch attack would end that subpar trash's .75 Ego Barrier.
[ ] Direct Investigation - None of the Ravens' other officers are above mid Dao Cleaving, and it very much appears that their Patriarch does not wish to be disturbed. Save time and energy, just investigate directly. If they attack, your vastly greater speed should allow you to keep your Lackeys safe.

*Immediately receive your Mastermind Point for the month, cancelling out your Mastermind Point debt.
*Directness: The Overlord's favored path grants increased probability of success as your Charmed Life activates
*Attempt to resolve things diplomatically before resorting to surreptitiousness or force
*Write-in tactics and relevant omakes can further improve chances
*Moderate risk to Lackeys
Immediately paid 1 MP. Good chance of success, but have to protect our puny Lackeys. Our Mid Dao Cleaving effective strength should destroy these probably about Peak Soul Chrysalis to Low Dao Cleaving effective lieutenants.
[ ] Stealth Insertion - Don't take your Lackeys along, try to use your Diagram skills to stealthily reach the dimensional anchor from an oblique angle and get into the pocket dimension that way. Given the array of exotic offensive Diagram effects that an unannounced intrusion might provoke, it would be unwise for non-Ringbearers to accompany you.

*Virtually no risk to Lackeys, who will train while you are gone
*If you are just interested in the Liches, a much more intelligent way of meeting them inconspicuously
*Might trigger the Reality Forming Patriarch into action, depending on what he is doing
*Write-in tactics and relevant omakes can further improve chances
*Expend a Mastermind Point: Guarantee safe and quiet entry into the pocket dimension, if one exists. If one does not exist, Nameless will have a significantly improved chance to figure out what is going on.
Buff lackeys, but we can't take the Patriarch. Probably best to do this if we want to trade with the Liches.
[ ] Pass - There's more than one Lich stronghold around here, you can feel it. No reason to approach the one guarded by a Reality Forming Patriarch. But how will you search for them?

*Xiaoling slightly piqued you're not investigating her lead, but at her current level of Loyalty this is barely relevant
*You will need to figure out a way to find the other Lich Vaults in the area
*Many plans can be viable, but most will probably not be
*Can collect cultivation materials while searching
*May have to fight monsters while searching
*If enough time passes, Nameless will train/cultivate while searching
*Expend a Mastermind Point: Nameless will take the best elements of proposed plans and add his own insights.
Xiaoling's at like +3 Loyalty, and it might drop by like .1 or .25 because of this? It may be worthwhile to get Eyes of Kong and use them to detect Diagram Magic in the vicinity, if we do this, instead of .4 BP.
You're poor now, and it doesn't feel right to rely on Xiaoling's perpetual generosity. What to do?

[ ] Take Out a Loan - There's a Bank of Yong branch in this city, as in most major trade ports. You can take out a loan up to 4x your original net worth, but it'll basically shut down this branch as its reserves will be totally depleted. [Spoiled]: Taking out a smaller loan would be super lame, you need that money for cultivation materials! And it won't do to make Yong look poor in front of Ming.

*Get tons of money without substantial effort
*Minor prestige hit to the Yong in the area
*You technically owe money to the bank
*Benefit from near-zero interest rates
This is basically pulling out the Yong coffers. I'd rather grind Scamming, to be honest, though?
[ ] Scam People - The time-honored classic. What else is there to say?

*Work long and hard for your money, slightly improves social skills relating to deception and manipulation
*Unlike the other two options, consumes time that could be spent doing other things
*Will probably make enemies
*Most enemies can be tricked with Illusory Guise
*Small chance of acquiring Treasures along with money
*Expend a Mastermind Point: Small chance of acquiring Priceless Treasures along with money, guaranteed to avoid enemies
Exactly how small is that small? If it's like 10%, that alone is worth about 15% of a BP, probably extra cash for spending the MP, but avoiding enemies may not really be worth it, as I think we can take on mid-rank Dao Cleaving, as Archsmith was Low Dao Cleaving level strength without the Beyond Ego Barrier boost of about +0.25 stages.
[ ] Mooch off Xiaoling - Accept poverty. It doesn't look good, but it's not like Xiaoling cares. With access to Daddy's credit line, she's even richer than you!

*Nameless slightly demoralized
*Xiaoling can buy luxuries, food, and lodging, but serious cultivation materials would drain her budget rapidly, as it did yours
*You can still get cultivation materials from killing monsters later
*May raise or lower the potency of Spoiled, unpredictable
If we could lower the potency of Spoiled with this, predictably, then I'd take it. However, since we can't...
Discussion and fanworks have unlocked one of four bonuses:

[ ] +40% Beyond Point Progress
If we plan on pure save, getting this is good. Its value is actually under the next option, however...
[ ] Choose an 'expend Mastermind point' option this update for free (you must choose this option to Expend any Mastermind points this update)
A Mastermind Point is worth slightly less than half a Beyond Point due to imperfect liquidity. Great value, but exactly how efficient are these options, really?
[ ] Eyes of Kong [Diagram] - By training with Suizhen, you can refine her ability to detect exotic energies, allowing her to track and perceive the residue of Diagram magic in an area. Suizhen becomes more adept at disrupting Diagrams of all types.
This might be worth considering if we plan on hunting a lot of Liches.
[ ] Actually Useful - It turns out this giant gold-plated Diagram is actually a minor Artifact on the level of Xiaoling's collar. You're pretty sure it will slightly (~10%?) improve the effects of a Grand Diagram scribed upon its surface. Remember, some Grand Diagrams (like your Forge of the Nameless) take a lot of time and rare materials to construct.
The only Grand Diagrams we know of for the foreseeable future are the Crown and the Vault, unless we trade for them. May be useful, but situational. Basically, if we want to grab the Vault soon.
 
Nameless can't pretend to be a Diagram Mage, his Cultivation is how detectable.

What he can legitimately claim to be is a nearly unprecedented master of the Cultivation arts, someone who invented an entirely new stage of Cultivation, with a proven track record of being able to teach it to others. That will be immensely attractive to this sect, with their weak cores. This is the scale that could gain us access, and we should leverage that.

Diagram Mages are probably utterly hated one Southern Vane as criminal abominations against nature. It's best not to reveal ourselves to be one.

The moaning from the anti-Diagram faction* is getting louder every option. Do we need to literally eliminate Diagram and never vote for it again to satisfy them? Philosopher-King stands on three legs, not two.

Diagram magic has had its time in the sun. It's promise was that it would be invested in initially to get a very good foundation for rapid growth in the other magical arts. That promise has been broken, as we've not switched, and we're instead continuing to focus most of our time and resources on Diagram Magic.

We've spent all of four months of Nameless' entire fourteen and a half years of life investing any time or effort on the non-Diagram magical arts. After that brief interlude, we've jumped right back to mono-focus on the Diagram.

It's reached the point where the claim that next time we'll start focusing on something else no longner rings true. It's almost always jam tomorrow.
 
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10% in general is very negligible. If you want to improve spells, just get 0.4BP and then Go Beyond in some spell later on.

I agree that 10% in general is very weak, but the Vault of the Ur-Pharao is the exception. It provides 12 out of 25 customization points normally, 20 out of 25 if going Beyond. With the gift, that would be 22 out of 25 - at no further cost of either Beyond Points or Cultivation time.
 
[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Scam People
-[X] Spend a Mastermind Point

[X] Choose an 'expend Mastermind point' option this update for free

Not really interested in the other two bonii, and since the exchange rate between Beyond and Mastermind is 2:1, taking the 40% just seems dumb.

As for the actual actions, it just seems reasonable to take the one that's directly mentioned to be buffed by our luck factor, and the one that gives fortune a chance to kick in once again with potential Priceless Treasures.
 
That's only Suizhen. Xiaoling didn't even notice our Cultivation until she hit us, and then she assumed we used a spell!

That's because weak people like her can't detect the Cultivation of people multiple stages above like Nameless.

The sect elders won't have that problem, as they're stronger than us.
 
[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Scam People
-[X] Spend a Mastermind Point
[X] Choose an 'expend Mastermind point' option this update for free

I'm concerned that the bank loan will contribute to the destabilization of the empire, even if it's not huge for Yong, it could still damage the region. I'd also consider voting for improving the eyes, but I think it's more important to get the money working.
 
Well, sigh. We went after the liches. The path of the Philosopher King was interesting while it lasted. A shame that was only one update. Back to an obsessive mono-focus on Diagram Magic it is. A shame that the claims that the path was to take Diagram Magic as the most effective Cultivation booster were a sham.
It was obvious the moment they went for Truthseeker dude.
The moaning from the anti-Diagram faction* is getting louder every option. Do we need to literally eliminate Diagram and never vote for it again to satisfy them? Philosopher-King stands on three legs, not two.
No, we hate you people because we already focused 14 years into Diagram and now that we finally have a chance to explore the other two magics you write it off as a waste of time and go back to monofocusing on Diagram.

[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Scam People
-[X] Spend a Mastermind Point

[X] Choose an 'expend Mastermind point' option this update for free
Adhoc vote count started by DarkKing98 on Mar 24, 2018 at 5:01 AM, finished with 71 posts and 18 votes.
 
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No, we hate you people because we already focused 14 years into Diagram and now that we finally have a chance to explore the other two magics you write it off as a waste of time and go back to monofocusing on Diagram.

I'm tired of you making everything we do a Diagram vs Everything Else war. I wanted Truthseeker because it was an EFB, and I've openly expressed my like of Philosopher-King, so don't make confuse arguments for the Lich for spite towards Philosopher-King. I've even expressed that I would prefer Archsmith second right behind Truth, when I could've shilled for Archmage, which would be the optimum choice if I only wanted Diagram. Even last vote, I was very indecisive between the two choices before being convinced.

Fact is, I picked Lich Stronghold because I believed that was by far the most time-urgent task we had that also seemed to indicate good rewards. I wanted the Ring because it seemed like the greatest multiplier out of the three. I wanted Truthseeker since I believed we had the largest chance of getting an EFB right there.

Never once did I decide a vote solely because it was the "Diagram" side, whereas you seem to be making this a stupid cheering contest for our favorite sports teams. I came into this quest long after a Throne of Stars, and I'm trying to craft the best story based on that, so please, for once, stop making this a war.
 
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I'm tired of you making everything we do a Diagram vs Everything Else war. I wanted Truthseeker because it was an EFB, and I've openly expressed my like of Philosopher-King, so don't make confuse arguments for the Lich for spite towards Philosopher-King. I've even expressed that I would prefer Archsmith second right behind Truth, when I could've shilled for Archmage, which would be the optimum choice if I only wanted Diagram. Even last vote, I was very indecisive between the two choices before being convinced.

Fact is, I picked Lich Stronghold because I believed that was by far the most time-urgent task we had that also seemed to indicate good rewards. I wanted the Ring because it seemed like the greatest multiplier out of the three. I wanted Truthseeker since I believed we had the largest chance of getting an EFB right there.

Never once did I decide a vote solely because it was the "Diagram" side, whereas you seem to be making this a stupid cheering contest for our favorite sports teams. I came into this quest long after a Throne of Stars, and I'm trying to craft the best story based on that, so please, for once, stop making this a war.
I recommend liberal use of the Ignore function to preserve your enjoyment in this quest.
 
Direct Investigation and Scamming have a good lead over other options. Our bonus is mostly spread between 0.4BP and quasi MMP focused on Scamming.

Could we not take the later one? Chance of getting Priceless treasure is just that, and while having a couple of enemies is not ideal, it's also not a big deal. Meanwhile, 0.4BP gets us to point where we can choose to Beyond multiple spell or take one Further Beyond option.

It goes back to what i mentioned earlier - we choose Lich option, so work on it. Scamming improvement is a shoot in dark at best, and it doesn't synergies very well with current plan. Meanwhile, our friendly neighbor Lich will offer us new and exciting magic, and that 0.4BP might very well make a difference between being able to Go Further Beyond in Grand Blood Diagram, Grand Time Diagram, Fate Battle Diagram or any spell from as of yet unknown fourth Ascendant Sign.
 
You mean to be able to ignore getting called out by people who would like to focus on something OTHER than Diagraming?

I actually found your arguments respectable until the moment you lost a vote, when you started doing this again. I don't want to ignore you since you have good arguments when you haven't just lost a vote. Can we just all exhibit good sportsmanship and calm down when we lose?

It goes back to what i mentioned earlier - we choose Lich option, so work on it. Scamming improvement is a shoot in dark at best, and it doesn't synergies very well with current plan. Meanwhile, our friendly neighbor Lich will offer us new and exciting magic, and that 0.4BP might very well make a difference between being able to Go Further Beyond in Grand Blood Diagram, Grand Time Diagram, Fate Battle Diagram or any spell from as of yet unknown fourth Ascendant Sign.

I was thinking like this, but I'm glad to confirm that others also share it. Voting:
[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Scam People
[X] +40% Beyond Point Progress
 
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No, we hate you people because we already focused 14 years into Diagram and now that we finally have a chance to explore the other two magics you write it off as a waste of time and go back to monofocusing on Diagram.
Even within our fourteen years, we have become a highly skilled Artifice user. We made the Ring, and the Jewel, without considering the Archsmith's spells. Diagram monofocus didn't exist. We were exploring Elven magic even before Archsmith.

We have just avoided most opportunities to Cultivate in favour of stacking multipliers.

And since we did that, we are halfway through the seven stages of Cultivation in four months. It's a workable, good build. We just need to see about getting that last Ascendant sign, and maybe a kinetic multiplier.
 
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We have just avoided most opportunities to Cultivate in favour of stacking multipliers.
...*looks at spell list*

Huh. Yeah. Nice stacking that whole one multiplier. Working out great for us, huh? Especially since you are now trying to find more multipliers in a field of magic thats users have absolutely no use for, and thusly, would have no reason to have any at all.

Diagram magic, when in terms of using it for a multiplier, at this point better off for self made spells, rather than what anything the Liches could have.
 
Diagram magic, when in terms of using it for a multiplier, at this point better off for self made spells, rather than what anything the Liches could have.

Then we'll see about that. We voted for Liches, now it's up to us to maximize what we get from this choice. You could be right, after all, but we'll never know unless we try, and we can't back out once committed.

What we need is a solid plan for getting in given all the ambiguously suspicious signs.
 
Then we'll see about that. We voted for Liches, now it's up to us to maximize what we get from this choice. You could be right, after all, but we'll never know unless we try, and we can't back out once committed.

That's the sunk cost fallacy in action.

We have a huge amount of things to spend BP on, and we've never seen a Priceless Treasure, but we know they can be as good as BP investment.
 
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...*looks at spell list*

Huh. Yeah. Nice stacking that whole one multiplier. Working out great for us, huh? Especially since you are now trying to find more multipliers in a field of magic thats users have absolutely no use for, and thusly, would have no reason to have any at all.

Diagram magic, when in terms of using it for a multiplier, at this point better off for self made spells, rather than what anything the Liches could have.
Oh, really?

We have several spells that enhance our other aspects significantly.

Kleinvarr's Greater Refining now can improve our resources by a large amount, roughly 20 - 100% at least after we master. Before that it merely improves by a bit.

Alvan's Balm of Growth lets us grow better Cultivation resources by simply regularly casting it on a plant. (This stacks with Refining, we can use Refining on plants grown by Balm)

Quickening boosts our everything by 4, which speaks for itself in terms of practical use.

Forge let us forge an extremely powerful Cultivation boosting Artifact that at least doubles efficiency of any Cultivation resources we eat.

Potentiation further adds X% increase on every one of these spells. (And Lichdom, another diagram, lets us exploit it's third step for long amounts of time)

But what do I know, Diagram is obviously terrible at being a multiplier, hmm?
 
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All three of our choices are ALL ABOUT LICHES. Seriously, you couldn't even do something different right now if you tried!

They're not all about that. Effective scamming backed by a Mastermind Point might well get us a Priceless Treasure that's useful to a Cultivator, or valuable Cultivation resources.

They might also get us information on the local sect's flawed but fast Forbidden Arts that we may be able to pirate to improve our own methods.

One of the reasons to go adventuring was to earn back the fortune we spent on the previous update. This would accomplish that.

We can make this all about liches if we ignore our other opportunities, but we don't Have to. We can try to fully exploit the place.

Also this is a good trial run of a Mastermind Point so we can work out how effective spending them is compared to stockpiling them for conversion to BP.

Kleinvarr's Greater Refining now improves our resources by a large amount, roughly 20 - 100% at least.

No, it doesn't, as we didn't Master it. We also lost the opportunity to take it beyond.

Alvan's Balm of Growth lets us grow better Cultivation resources by simply regularly casting it on a plant. (This stacks with Refining, we can use Refining on plants grown by Balm)

This spell is currently useless to us, as we're continually travelling, so have nowhere to grow plants. If we get a Vault, that may change, but we haven't got a Vault, and people are going to want to spend the BP that we could on a Vault on whatever spells the liches offer instead.
 
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But what do I know, Diagram is obviously terrible at being a multiplier, hmm?

Yeah, that was exactly what Diagram was marketed as on Page 1 of this Quest: a very potent multiplier for non-magic sources of power. There's no denying that. And even if the Diagram liches are weak, Rihaku has mentioned the Diagram is a very good method for reaching Ultimate power early. The only way I can see that happening is through exploiting its multipliers.

They might also get us information on the local sect's flawed but fast Forbidden Arts that we may be able to percentage to improve our own methods.

One of the reasons to go adventuring was to earn back the fortune we spent on the previous update. This would accomplish that.

I do know that, but I'm also voting for getting BP since we're perpetually short on it, which is a plus.

For the three choices, though, I'm referring to the three choices dealing with the Lich Stronghold. There's no "I'm not doing a Stronghold" choice. It's A: Direct, B: Indirect, or C: Find another Stronghold.
 
That's the sunk cost fallacy in action.
I believe that you are confusing "sunk cost fallacy" for "reaping the rewards of your investments".

A common mistake, for sure.

Lich means new spells. New spells mean new BP opportunities. More BP to spend means ability to maximize profit on actions we have taken so far.

Or you could take minor chance of getting unknown treasure. That sounds prudent.
 
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