Even Further Beyond [Complete]

Their only real usefulness is in enhancing Suizhen's ability to be useful as our agent in different location than us. However, that's basically the only point of lackeys, given how much stronger than them we are, and how much faster we grow.

...If she starts getting boosts from Age of Glory, she may also end up being relevant even in team combat with us, at which point giving her boosts that actually scale with her would also be helpful.
I guess this could start a chain of upgrades to her eyehax that ends with abilities that make Kamui and Tsukuyomi look like cheap tricks but when the first step costs at least .4 BP I'm just not prepared to go for it when its utility has a stark time limit and Suizhen will grow really strong anyway.
 
"The Mountain's Refuse, they call us. To press against us is to sink into trash."

This quote had me laugh out loud.

So, basically, you've already written off her ever being loyal to us?

Because it wouldn't be hard to make her super loyal to us--and we weren't banned from flipping the other Heroes either--the only one who's effectively irreconcilable is the Heroine herself.

She's someone who has Talent enough--one way or another--that she could be mistaken for being the actual Heroine. If we can get her super loyal to us, then we will be in business.

And yeah, unstated but obvious benefit to the Xiaoling choice--her improved Loyalty means she's making a genuine effort to not be quite as much of a bitch to Suizen.

Not really. I'm a fan of contingencies, and I believe the BP option fits in line with our chosen Lich Stronghold better without being a potential liability in the future. I mean, I want her to be loyal, but if she isn't, I'd still like to be able to suppress her.

Especially when it's unlikely other people will also use the Diagram as extensively as us, with the Liches Doomed and all. Maybe the Heroine? But that's still a long-shot, and we're in a great position to counter her if she tries it.
 
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[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Take Out a Loan
[X] +40% Beyond Point Progress

The Beyond Point progress is very valuable, whether we're saving for purchases like Truth & Philosopher-King or aiming to Go Beyond on the spells offered in the upcoming exchange. Scamming people for all they're worth is always appealing, but if doing it right requires passing up the BP progress, I'd rather just loot the bank. Deplian is in the middle of nowhere; the biggest hotel is only fifty stories tall. The world we're living in is so vast that I doubt it'll seriously inconvenience us in the long run. Part of being the Young Master is the ability to just coast by on the strength of our name. Sometimes it's okay to take the free lunch. Funny, how the difference between a withdrawal and a heist comes down to our family name.

Plus, can you imagine trying to draft a complaint about us? "So... who withdrew all your assets? Nobody? The Nameless One? Are you sure you weren't just robbed, Polyphemus?"
 
You are 4.25 with 6x speed boost and no Reality Effects, which in terms of combat effectiveness is about mid Dao-Cleaving, maybe slightly higher. Could fight disadvantageously against High or Peak Dao Cleaving for a bit.

Potentiation only gets Mordant Flame to semi-relevant against Dao Cleaving. It may be theoretically damaging to Reality Forming but the amounts involved are relatively minuscule, like trying to bring down a castle wall with a normal sword.
Mordant Flame should be a nightmare to the other cultivators in his Sect, though, since they have a weak foundation.
 
Given we're headed for Direct Investigation, what's the plan? From what I see, there are three parts.

  1. How we investigate the actual dimension
  2. How we deal with the Dao Cleaving people who may interfere
  3. How we deal with the Reality Forming master if he appears
The Beyond Point progress is very valuable, whether we're saving for purchases like Truth & Philosopher-King or aiming to Go Beyond on the spells offered in the upcoming exchange. Scamming people for all they're worth is always appealing, but if doing it right requires passing up the BP progress, I'd rather just loot the bank. Deplian is in the middle of nowhere; the biggest hotel is only fifty stories tall. The world we're living in is so vast that I doubt it'll seriously inconvenience us in the long run. Part of being the Young Master is the ability to just coast by on the strength of our name. Sometimes it's okay to take the free lunch. Funny, how the difference between a withdrawal and a heist comes down to our family name.

That's... a good point. With near-zero interest rate, we could theoretically not return the loan for a decade and suffer little.
 
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I was hoping to basically scam our way in as a specialist or something.

Tactics are a bit tough though since we don't even have the slightest clue what these guys even want, or what the terrain looks like, or anything.
 
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[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Take Out a Loan

[X] +40% Beyond Point Progress

Doubt we'll have enough to Go Further Beyond any potential spell we gain from a hypothetical lich here but every bit helps.
 
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[ ] Scam People - The time-honored classic. What else is there to say?

The Bleak Ravens practice a form of Forbidden Cultivation that allows for rapid Stage breakthroughs in exchange for a weakened core.

Huh.....would it be possible to scam the Bleak Ravens into not just funding Nameless but also letting Nameless "assist/help" their Patriarch?

edit: and ninja'd :p

What's Suizen's feelings on scamming the everloving shit out of temporarily superior Forbidden Art Cultivators and seeking to steal their prize through cunning rather than main force?

This would be hilarious imo.
 
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[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Take Out a Loan

[X] +40% Beyond Point Progress

Alwan's Crown can trash them, even without BP.
 
[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Scam People
-[X] Spend a Mastermind Point

[X] Choose an 'expend Mastermind point' option this update for free

Chance at Priceless Treasure is worth it.
 
Also, we should look at spells we are willing to trade to Liches for other spells.

  • Mordant Fire: Basically useless to us, I kinda regret voting for it, but to them it is the pinnacle of offense Diagram and can fuck over Cultivators by destroying Cultivation. Sounds useful for their terrorist efforts, and since they are in Vane land they'll hopefully fuck over Vane people.
  • Beyond Quickening: Why not? They can't use it in combat since they'll get fucked due to physical difference, and they can't even Cultivate with it.
  • Beyond Tyranshal: This is not something I want to trade. It lets them hit at Dao Cleaving level, which will let them do real harm to us and our lackeys with a good offense vector. Not worth it.
  • Illusory Guise: I think stealthing from Dao Cleaving cultivators will help them escape low level Cultivators easier and helps with stealth. It's also our unique spell, so they wont possess it. Seems worth it to me.
  • Beyond Refining (if taken): Maybe. Its unique due to being a Beyond spell. Can work, no idea what use they have for it tho.

Can't think of others that we have that aren't common spells that they would have (not giving them Deliberation, that's private). Not sure what else we can trade. Not interested in giving away Artifacts.

Maybe we can teach them method for Diagram Ego Barrier? Don't think they can use it.
 
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I wonder, what is that Reality Forming master even doing in the Vault next to the Dimension that all his followers are so desperate to stop people from interrupting him?

Also, we can trade Baenlixnaire's Deliberation. It's blurb indicates it's the best spell for something approaching increased intelligence ever developed, which makes it very valuable. It's also Baelixnaire's own self-developed spell, meaning they won't have it. We can market it as helping their research and improving their effectiveness, since that doesn't really matter given their Doom approaching.
 
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Also, we can trade Baenlixnaire's Deliberation. It's blurb indicates it's the best spell for something approaching increased intelligence ever developed, which makes it very valuable. It's also Baelixnaire's own self-developed spell, meaning they won't have it. We can market it as helping their research and improving their effectiveness, since that doesn't really matter given their Doom approaching.
Not giving NPCs potential Beyond Point access, especially given their general misanthropy.
 
Yeah, Psionics deriving from the Ego Barrier? I can absolutely see that as being something that can let her crush experts way the fuck beyond her weight class, because it's just a complete OCP--and thus, any Lieutenant of ours who fails to at least have an Absolute Ego Barrier is potentially going to get crushed on contact with her.

Plausible. So now let's try to figure out how the other heroes from Age of Glory fit into this. When we found Suizhen she was already at Organ Refining, and it was stated that it would take some time for the other heroines to join up with the goddess, meaning she'd get pretty far down the Cultivation path. How would a mere Cultivator be able to assist the goddess, with her Cultivator-slaughtering magic?

Recall that age of glory means that the heroes will be "each bearing some unique and unpredictable advantage". For Suizhen, it's obviously her eyes. My guess is that once Suizhen turns 18, her eyes, which can already see internal energy, will allow her to directly manipulate that internal energy. Or maybe she can do that already, and just hasn't told us since we didn't unlock her Second ability.

Kong Zang had endowed his bloodline with many gifts, but the Eyes of Kong were undoubtedly the most famous. When not in use they were open-faced and blue, but once invoked they grew storm-dark and cloudy, twin heavenly wheels churning with mist. To optically witness internal energy was the merest of their tricks. An ordinary Cultivator would not have been able to apprehend his Mordant Fire at a glance.

I would very much like to learn more about her eyes.
 
Also, now we know at least one use of Mastermind points is to boost Nameless' competence while executing 'schemer' type actions.

Sounds useful, though I don't think we'll use it much until Charmed Life expires.
 
[X] Direct Investigation
[x] Scam People
[X] +40% Beyond Point Progress

Let's make father proud.
 
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Option evaluation:

Properly assessing strengths and drawbacks of the option depends a little on figuring out what the Reality-Forming patriarch is doing. He doesn't want to be disturbed. If his only objective was to exterminate some Liches, there would be little need for secrecy. What could he want? Treasure is one option. Retrieve something priceless stolen from his clan, or just try to loot the place alone before someone else can.
However, there's also the possibility that he's Cultivating. Why would he do so next to a den of dangerous terrorists? Well, the Liches may be cooperating him. Feeling their Doom coming, they could have made a pact with him, like Baenlixnaer made with us. There's also the possibility that his Reality-Forming can stave off their Doom somehow, and they are trading services for continued existing.
In any case, the situation changes depending on whether the patriarch is besieging the stronghold or whether he's allied with the Liches.


[ ] Direct Investigation
Raven's officers are at mid Dao Cleaving, which is around our effective combat power, if I remember right. Not an entire stomp in our favor, though Potentiation-boosted Mordant can ruin their day. However, why should they attack and make enemies of both the Yong and the Ming?To hide their collusion with the Liches, perhaps? Investigating directly wastes no time, which is good, but could end up in combat anyway. The Reality-Forming patriarch is a big threat, and we need tactics to work around him.

[ ] Stealth Insertion
The sneaky option. Boosts allies a little with training, and is something our skills are fairly well-suited for. Gives us a chance at evaluating the situation before diving in and making mistakes due to lack of information. If the Patriarch is besieging the stronghold and notices us, this may start off the battle. On the plus side, that means we would have potential allies on prepared territory. Bad side, he's still Reality-Forming. The same risk exists for the direct approach. If he's working with the Liches, he's probably busy Cultivating and won't interrupt it just because one more Lich showed up.
*Expend a Mastermind Point:
Pay half a Beyond point to avoid complications. Note that it doesn't help if the Patriarch starts attacking the stronghold while we are already in it.

[ ] Pass
Avoid the danger and search for other Liches. Outcome depends on player ingenuity. Sounds as if it would work, but gives up on finding out what the Ravens are doing (and any related opportunities)
Expend a Mastermind Point:
Pay half a Beyond point so Nameless removes the dumb parts of our plans and stitches together a better one from their carcasses. Consider the stakes. Are they high enough we absolutely need a great plan? What do we risk if things go wrong? I think we can pass on this one.


[ ] Take Out a Loan
Bad for Yong influence in the area, but a quick and easy way to get funds. Here, the old adage applies: "If you owe the bank $1 million, you have a problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, the bank has a problem."

[ ] Scam People - The time-honored classic. What else is there to say?
Wastes time not investigating Liches or Cultivating. Improves social skills a little instead. Small chance at extra treasure. Makes enemies, mitigated by our illusions.
*Expend a Mastermind Point
Pay half a Beyond Point to play the lottery and guarantee not to make enemies. Doesn't sound worth it.

[ ] Mooch off Xiaoling - Accept poverty. It doesn't look good, but it's not like Xiaoling cares. With access to Daddy's credit line, she's even richer than you!
Unable to buy Cultivation resources, but can hunt for them. Probably best taken with the [] Pass option, which includes gathering resources and fighting monsters. The unpredictable influence on the Spoiled Passion is worrisome. Wandering around in the wilderness a lot without access to luxuries sounds as if it could nudge the change towards lowering the Passion.


[ ] +40% Beyond Point Progress
Good when we meet the Liches and get to pick things.

[ ] Choose an 'expend Mastermind point' option this update for free (you must choose this option to Expend any Mastermind points this update)
Technically, it's 10% more than the +40% Beyond Point Progress option, but can't be used on permanent improvements.

[ ] Eyes of Kong [Diagram]
This sounds like a fairly niche type bonus, if relevant to the local area.

[ ] Actually Useful
10% bonus to the effects of a Grand Diagram. Could be used to provide 2 extra build points to a Beyonded Vault of the Pharao, giving 22 total. That's four categories maxed at 5 with one dump stat, for example.
 
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10% bonus to the effects of a Grand Diagram. Could be used to provide 2 extra build points to a Beyonded Vault of the Pharao, giving 22 total. That's four categories maxed at 5 with one dump stat, for example.
Notably, this can boost Baenlixnaire's Deliberation. A far off thing to do, but promising once we return home (?).

Archsmith's Diagram cannot be destroyed and remade, so we're stuck with it as is.

Potentiation would see some good gains here given 100% boost would now increase stats by 220% (?).
 
Well, sigh. We went after the liches. The path of the Philosopher King was interesting while it lasted. A shame that was only one update. Back to an obsessive mono-focus on Diagram Magic it is. A shame that the claims that the path was to take Diagram Magic as the most effective Cultivation booster were a sham.

Well, for now, there's not much to do here. The least bad option is probably to hope that we get some other, non-Diagram bonuses out of this to encourage Nameless to change his mind and stop considering Diagram Magic to be the centrepiece of his abilities.

[X] Direct Investigation - None of the Ravens' other officers are above mid Dao Cleaving, and it very muchappears that their Patriarch does not wish to be disturbed. Save time and energy, just investigate directly. If they attack, your vastly greater speed should allow you to keep your Lackeys safe.
[X] Scam People - The time-honored classic. What else is there to say?
- [X] Spend a Mastermind Point
[X] Choose an 'expend Mastermind point' option this update for free (you must choose this option to Expend any Mastermind points this update)

This way we spend the least amount of time getting to the lich, I hope, and we also put our social skills to work. It is a bold sect that denies access to two young geniuses of the main branches of two of the Great Clans. Particularly when they both have such potent Ego Barriers, and so their strong foundations are such an obvious contrast to the sect's weakness.

I'm also curious if we can learn anything from their Hetrodex Cultivation Art. If we can combine whatever it is that makes them Cultivate quickly and avoid the weakness in the Core thanks to the insight of being an Diagram Mage and Artificier, that could be very useful. Having more data points about Cultivation arts is very useful for a scientific cultivator like Nameless.

I'm hopefully that if we're Mastermind Point grade scamming people we might be able to help with that.

We should also consider what it is that we can offer this sect, for them to cooperate. Now, it should be very obvious that Xiaoling and Nameless have incredibly strong Cores, and from Nameless' strength for his age, that he has a very fast Cultivation art. We may be able to tempt them with the potential for knowledge that they can use to improve their arts. Whatever they have found must be very valuable, but this could be a game changer for them, and that will make them exploitable.

We've paid handsomely for Xiaoling's upgrade. Let's make use of it.
 
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I wonder, what is that Reality Forming master even doing in the Vault next to the Dimension that all his followers are so desperate to stop people from interrupting him?

Also, we can trade Baenlixnaire's Deliberation. It's blurb indicates it's the best spell for something approaching increased intelligence ever developed, which makes it very valuable. It's also Baelixnaire's own self-developed spell, meaning they won't have it. We can market it as helping their research and improving their effectiveness, since that doesn't really matter given their Doom approaching.

I'm getting a vibe that there is something shifty going on.

the blurb for:
"Expend a Mastermind Point: Guarantee safe and quiet entry into the pocket dimension, if one exists. If one does not exist, Nameless will have a significantly improved chance to figure out what is going on. "

Doesn't just say something may be going on, it basically states that something IS going on, and it is up to nameless (alone) to find it with this choice.

Additionally isn't it a little strange that the patriarch is being kept separate? This could mean one of many scenarios is taking place.

1) The master's lackeys are trying to sabotage him by preventing help from coming.
----This is unlikely, as there has been no news of civil strife according to Ming's gossip, and more then that filial duty is BIGLY in this verse.

2) The master is trying to pierce the veil, and is weakened by whatever method is being used to enter the dimension. More then that, it may simply require intensive meditation that leaves him vulnerable, rather then there being a particular weakness. Although this leads to conspiracy theory
-2a) THERE IS NO LICH. The master has been weakened by the form of forbidden cultivation and needs time to recover. The LICH IS A LIE.
-2b) There is a lich, but there is a curse, too. The master is currently trapped/cannot appear in public for some reason. This could be due to the weakness of the clans here, with no clear leader having come out ahead. This is plausible in my opinion.
---the most plausible here is that the piercing of the dimension veil requires meditation or vulnerability. This leads to a bargaining advantage if we can get to him... especially if we look more powerful then we are. Remember not everyone has Kong eyes, accurately judging power is difficult. We can "flex" our metaphorical spiritual muscles. Maybe use illusion to augment it? Using force to rofl-no our way through defences may be part of this.

3) There is no weakness, no trap. It is instead... a negotiation. Look at it like this. You are desperately struggling to make your clan more powerful to the point of dominating; but there are three other clans, and no one could possibly overcome all of them. The situation is precariously balanced. So you, an ambitious patriarch, reach out to your eternal enemies.... the liches. By combining cultivation with diagram we found an extra stage, a revelation that could lead to all-out war with elves if publicised. If we could do it, why not a lich and a patriarch?

The scenario is quite persuasive too- just breaks through to reality-forming, then realises how weakened the foundation is. Maybe fears about his slower growing enemies overwhelming him. So desperation strikes.
----I can definitely believe something like this happening. Given what we've heard about the situation with the warring clans and wekend foundations, it provides more then adequate motive.

Implications: The fact that there is no reward offered for helping pierce the veil is important. It either means that the clan is acting against its better interests, or alternatively that there is something deeper going on. It could just be prestige, with them wanting all the rewards and fame for themselves. Somehow I doubt it. I sniff conspiracy.

Plans:

Plan [Razzle-Dazzle them]: Play to a charmed life. Go all out. They know about Ming, she's bought out the biggest hotel in town. They may have heard of us; if not, present them with a story that fits our narrative. We are diagram prospectors. We have Ming's plate, a suitable prop. We have some tricks we can show of ourselves. Pretend to be cultivating collectors on holiday. More money then brains, but lots of influence. It's time to put on the tricksters hat.
- take [ ] Direct Investigation
- take Ming. Dress up. Ooze wealth. Ooze importance. Wear the nicest clothes... and the most dangerous smiles. Suizen can sit there and look tough. Or maybe have her play the distressed manservant/maid? Scurrying around, obeying orders. She'd be good at this role, and Ming would find it very funny. Most importantly, we CANNOT TAKE THIS ROUTE WITH [ ] Take Out a Loan because of the prestige hit. If they know we aren't actually wealthy it will make the deception less plausible. We could coast by on our name, but it would be risky.
- Barge in. Overwhelm the guards. "Don't you know who I am" thirty times a second. We can simply bluster through the initial guards. Ming in full force is a something to be reckoned with I suspect.
-When we meet the middle ranking officer, simply go for the "bribe/benefit for your clan/important news your patriarch needs to hear" approach. This is a time-honoured strategy. Act like you belong wielding this much influence. next thing you know you will have that influence to wield.


The critical question is whether 2b) or 3) is the case. Or both- a weakened negotiation. If the patriarch is, in fact, being a traitor, we put them on the spot. I'm certain we can barge in, but the issue is that may get us assasinated if we find ourselves in a public way and also knowing of the treachery. THIS OPTION MUST NOT END IN COMBAT. "you don't believe you can contest a Reality Forming master on prepared ground, no matter how subpar his foundation is." THIS IS IMPORTANT. There are reinforcements waiting. The boss is a stage too high for our effective offence to play. We must cut a deal, or find some angle to play at.

Let's brainstorm people. With this particular option, I recommend going with

[ ] Stealth Insertion
*Expend a Mastermind Point
[ ] Choose an 'expend Mastermind point' option this update for free

To allow us to max our bluff, while getting most out of the scamming option (even if we dont get a priceless treasure we can surely make lots of money off it, thereby refunding our time investment and more). Remember that we are going to get "lucky" with this approach- find the stupid guard who will take us to the elder, wander in at their most vulnerable etc. We can leverage this to extraordinary heights if we play it right. But in this scenario we can't pick a fight. Elders and guards everywhere- it is a fail condition.

Not voting yet because we need to plan this more.

Metal gear: ReNameless coming soon
 
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Well, sigh. We went after the liches. The path of the Philosopher King was interesting while it lasted. A shame that was only one update. Back to an obsessive mono-focus on Diagram Magic it is. A shame that the claims that the path was to take Diagram Magic as the most effective Cultivation booster were a sham.

I'm still salty after failing Truthseeker and after seeing how prone we are to chase shinies, but I'm just going to have to deal with it. Win some, lose some, make do with the best you got. I'm just going to ask you to please don't generalize like this when we literally just spent 3BP on artifice. It kills the atmosphere and messes with the quest. And it's not like Philosopher-King disappeared, just like Truth is still there.

That's the nature of quests and also what's fun about them: we don't get everything we want, but that doesn't mean the process can't be just as fun.
 
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Potentiation would see some good gains here given 100% boost would now increase stats by 220% (?).

No, it's not that strong. Potentiation is a very poor choice for it.

Journey to Vane 1/2 said:
Stage 3, 100%: Spells that directly create attacks or defenses are improved by the equivalent of one full Cultivation stage, and other spells are improved by two 'steps.'

*A 'step' is usually a 20-30% increment for a buff spell.

100% boost is a 40% to 60% increment. Getting 44% to 66% instead is a terrible use of the gift.
 
I'm still salty after failing Truthseeker and after seeing how prone we are to chase shinies, but I'm just going to have to deal with it. Win some, lose some, make do with the best you got. I'm just going to ask you to please don't generalize like this when we literally just spent 3BP on artifice. It kills the atmosphere and messes with the quest. And it's not like Philosopher-King disappeared, just like Truth is still there.
And 1 BP on Ego Barrier, remember. We're already partway into PK.

The moaning from the anti-Diagram faction* is getting louder every option. Do we need to literally eliminate Diagram and never vote for it again to satisfy them? Philosopher-King stands on three legs, not two.

*I hesitate to call them pro-Cultivation since they are fine with any option that isn't Diagram, like Elf Magic and literally any non-Diagram.

No, it's not that strong. Potentiation is a very poor choice for it.



100% boost is a 40% to 60% increment. Getting 44% to 66% instead is a terrible use of the gift.
I see. That does sound very useless in comparison to others. 40% BP sounds better. We can go Beyond for another stage and maybe finish True Alchemist by then.
 
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