Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome

Spacegnom said:

Yes, I'm sure I don't want any long-term dictators. Caesar can be a powerful senator/consul/general, but my aim is to not let Pompey and Caesar be Sulla & Marius 2.0.

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Pretty sure that battle is already more or less lost since at this point in time the political system as well as culture is more or less perfectly suited for exactly that kind of strongmen and I honestly see little way to reform it without becoming one yourself. Realistically if it weren't Caesar and Pompey you would get another bunch of ambitious and successful generals doing something like this because the circumstances make it nearly impossible to avoid it.

Chaos Blade said:

Yes, because the worse the dictators are, the more backlash they will generate. the smart ones and able ones will be very hard to dislodge and then you'd have to contend with their imitators.
If you have a disastrous one or two? then you can cast them in the same light as the roman kings.

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Yeah, I am sure that the theory of Accelerationism will be the perfect consultation to us when said disastrous dictators burn Rome and us down and surely such a person will serve as the perfect example and warning to the Roman people like Sulla, Marius or the Gracchi (and many others) did.

[X] Plan Flexible
-[X] Legio VI
-[X] Tercerus
-[X] Rufus

[X] Plan Flexible
-[X] Legio VI
-[X] Tercerus
-[X] Rufus

[X] Plan Flexible
-[X] Legio VI
-[X] Tercerus
-[X] Rufus

Thinking about it, Gaul might be the choice that puts us in most danger from Pompey. He has a lot of land/clients in Cisalpine Gaul, who likely have connections in Transalpine Gaul, and Picentines tend to look enough like Gauls that one could travel relatively incognito.

Also, given that I've just remembered that tags don't work properly when edited in: @Telamon Have we heard any rumours in the Forum, etc. about where Metellus Pius is and what he's been up to?

Please don't say raising troops in Africa.

I see the bandwagon has left the station, and it honestly might be my preferred option too, but in the interests of not letting the opportunity to decisively affect the Civil War pass us by without a murmur -

[X] Plan Fortune's Favourite
-[x] Legio IX
-[x] Theo
-[x] Rufus

This is a gamble, an absolutely massive one frankly. But between ourselves, Theo and Rufus we should be able to earn the love of the of legionaries, and Marius has frankly made it pretty easy to tar him with monarchical ambitions. Theo, while not ideal, is the best servant available for this sort of intrigue, and Rufus is the only tribune choice that we can trust won't give the game away either by accident or design.

Again, this is an epic gamble, with a real risk of a Bad End. But the potential pay-off is huge, and I think we should at least consider it.

(Oh, and before anyone complains that we don't have the Gift of Fortuna, the name refers to Sulla. And, well, Fortune helps those who help themselves.)

Question; Lets say Marius wins but after a few years he dies from old age. Who would take his place? His son and Cinna perhaps?

It might actually interesting to have such an open field without Titans like Marius and Sulla.

Erandil said:

Yeah, I am sure that the theory of Accelerationism will be the perfect consultation to us when said disastrous dictators burn Rome and us down and surely such a person will serve as the perfect example and warning to the Roman people like Sulla, Marius or the Gracchi (and many others) did.

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Actually it would be, we'll probably need to go into exile if they come into power, but after they have destroyed themselves we can go and pick up the pieces, or start anew elsewhere.
Rome was, ultimately, a victim of its owns success, a few harsh failures by the strong men might prove useful in tarring them for some time and would allow a chance for reform that would allow us to sidestep the problem, maybe.

Chaos Blade said:

Actually it would be, we'll probably need to go into exile if they come into power, but after they have destroyed themselves we can go and pick up the pieces, or start anew elsewhere.
Rome was, ultimately, a victim of its owns success, a few harsh failures by the strong men might prove useful in tarring them for some time and would allow a chance for reform that would allow us to sidestep the problem, maybe.

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Ooor that whole Republic thing just disintagrates. I mean taking the wrong lession from a problem is age old tradition. Who says people won't blame the idea of Republic and look to a king for stability?

The big problem Rome faces is a cultural one. It trains and incentivises its elite to be ruthless and ubercompetitive bastards, just for the chance to enjoy a brief taste of supreme power. And then it takes that taste away, so that the next bastard in line can have a drink. And that was fine, when those bastards had no recourse but to pass the cup along.

But now the wine is stronger and sweeter, and it has been shown to them that they have another option - naked force. That wasn't available when Roman armies were comprised of propertied men with a stake in the Republic and its institutions. Now though, those armies are comprised of poor, desperate men with a stake in their generals' success and futures. (And you can't close that door now. The Republic has too many commitments in too many places.)

At this point, saving the Republic involves destroying its driving force: the energy and ambition of its aristocracy.

[X] Plan Gaul
-[x] Legio III
-[x] Glaber
-[x] Caesonius

I think this plan, or something like it, combines a good chance at glory/prestige with relative safety from political intrigues.

I wasn't sure about the Tribune choice, but Caesonius seems like a solid choice.

Tasoli said:

Ooor that whole Republic thing just disintagrates. I mean taking the wrong lession from a problem is age old tradition. Who says people won't blame the idea of Republic and look to a king for stability?

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Because the Romans hate Kings

[X] Plan Gaul

Looking at the coming clusterfuck I think I'd strongly prefer to be in another side of the country, winning uncontroversial glory against barbarians

[X] Plan Flexible
-[X] Legio VI
-[X] Tercerus
-[X] Rufus

The problem with Plan Gaul is that it doesn't matter where we are, we're still at risk. Both from intrigue and combat. In Gaul we'd have both a Populares commander and subordinate. The prior most likely owing their position to Marius or Cinna, so it's not unlikely that we could still be dealing surprises. A convenient ambush by locals, or some form of political manoeuvring resulting in our subsequent shaming. Allowing another Tribune to subvert our command.

Plan Fortune's Favourite would be good if not for our current stats. We have the aptitude of a skilled tribune not a legate. Not to mention that we can't manage a wine stand, how're we meant to run a Legion? There's more to it than fighting, logistics is paramount. Keeping our men well fed and paid is key for loyalty. Something I'm fairly confident we wouldn't be able to achieve as we are.

With Plan Flexible admittedly there's some risk. But we're under Sertorius command, someone who actually rebuked Marius and Cinna for their purges. I'd doubt he'd easily allow such politicking under his command. The whole point of us serving is to learn, to improve our martial skills whilst solidifying our reputation. Sertorius is a great general, we're not going to serve under a better military leader unless we serve under Marius or Sulla. He's someone who manages to hold his own against our new rival Pompey . It's best to learn under him if we want to be able to better contend against the military juggernauts of this age.

The major draw is Tercerus though, the man although nearing the end of his lifetime is well experienced. As a former centurion he knows the intricacies of the Legions, something we can use to better our command. It seems a waste not to use him, considering if left he'd likely die regardless. He's the ablest diplomat, warrior and leader on our staff. Something we should make use of while we're still able.

[X] Plan Fortune's Favourite
-[x] Legio IX
-[x] Theo
-[x] Rufus

Hey, someone willing to roll the dice. I get going for the safer options, but one doesn't come to wield the might of Rome by picking the safest options. A bad end is just one of the risks we face every day.

Let's go Italia.

[X] Plan Flexible
-[X] Legio VI
-[X] Tercerus
-[X] Rufus

[X] Plan Gaul
-[x] Legio III
-[x] Glaber
-[x] Caesonius

[X] Plan Flexible
-[X] Legio VI
-[X] Tercerus
-[X] Rufus

Pensive-Nerves said:

Plan Fortune's Favourite would be good if not for our current stats. We have the aptitude of a skilled tribune not a legate. Not to mention that we can't manage a wine stand, how're we meant to run a Legion? There's more to it that fighting, logistics is paramount. Keeping our men well fed and paid is key for loyalty. Something I'm fairly confident we wouldn't be able to manage as we're currently.

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Running a legion is likely to be Military + Administration rather than Stewardship, so we should do alright logistically. A skilled military tribune should be perfectly capable of managing a legion, as that's essentially the job description. In any case, we would undoubtedly be the best solider in the command staff.

Like, there are huge risks involved in the plan, but I don't think running Legio IX is going to be one of them.



On a different note, I'm going to momentarily indulge my salt. This is exactly why I wanted to take another year. We neither want nor know how to leverage our position for further gain, so we're expending a great deal of effort to stand still. If we are essentially going to hang around doing nothing of note, we would have been much better off spending it learning with Scaevola and making friends in Rome.

There. Salt indulged. Moving on.

Caesar said:

This is exactly why I wanted to take another year. We neither want nor know how to leverage our position for further gain, so we're expending a great deal of effort to stand still. If we are essentially going to hang around doing nothing of note, we would have been much better off spending it learning with Scaevola and making friends in Rome.

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You make a fair point -- we're still young and inexperienced, so we weren't going to turn our time as tribune into great personal gain. But if we stayed in Rome:
a) we would have to deal with an inevitable assassination attempt from Pompey
b) our 'command' stat would still be locked, and we'd be unable to make much progress in our military score

Also, I don't think fighting the Samnites alongside Sertorius is 'doing nothing' -- there's a massive upside, if only for our personal growth.

Finally, you should check the wiki page for Cicero again. Just because we were elected tribune doesn't mean we have to serve in the field for all ten years. In fact, at this point in the Republic it is vanishingly rare for anyone to do so. Cicero was elected tribune during the early years of the Social War, then returned to Rome after a few years, and would spend the remainder of his ten years touring Greece and Asia Minor training his philosophy/oratory/law skills. We can do the same -- serve with Sertorius to gain the benefit of his expertise, then use our remaining years working to maximize our personal growth.

Publicola said:

You make a fair point -- we're still young and inexperienced, so we weren't going to turn our time as tribune into great personal gain. But if we stayed in Rome:
a) we would have to deal with an inevitable assassination attempt from Pompey
b) our 'command' stat would still be locked, and we'd be unable to make much progress in our military score

Also, I don't think fighting the Samnites alongside Sertorius is 'doing nothing' -- there's a massive upside, if only for our personal growth.

Finally, you should check the wiki page for Cicero again. Just because we were elected tribune doesn't mean we have to serve in the field for all ten years. In fact, at this point in the Republic it is vanishingly rare for anyone to do so. Cicero was elected tribune during the early years of the Social War, then returned to Rome after a few years, and would spend the remainder of his ten years touring Greece and Asia Minor training his philosophy/oratory/law skills. We can do the same -- serve with Sertorius to gain the benefit of his expertise, then use our remaining years working to maximize our personal growth.

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Cicero then spent the entirety of his career being called a cowardly draft-dodger (well, when he wasn't being called a murderer for killing Roman citizens without trial.) At this point in the Republic, you can get away with not serving your ten campaigns. But it is a weakness.

As to your other points,
a) Pompey is probably going to try to kill us in Italy too, and in many ways it's going to be easier for him.
b) I would happily have put back our military development for a year if it meant improving our stewardship and starting to gather clients. We'd also have had a much clearer picture of the Civil War.

Anyway, that's all irrelevant now. On things that actually matter to us going forward, my problem with serving in Gaul or Italy is that it is unlikely to improve our standing. We'll rack up some improvement militarily and make some money selling slaves, but (barring outrageous fortune) our name is not going to be any better known on the streets of Rome and we won't have made many (if any) new clients. Also, it seems to me that most of those voting for either of those options are citing the lack of controversy and risk as a deciding factor.

Finally, I'm not sure we can count on getting on with Sertorius. We're in tight with Scaevola, who's in tight with Sulla, who blocked Sertorius from winning a tribunate.

Okay, yeah, existence of Pompeus kinda mucks around with an idea of staying in Italy.

Hm. Without us close to Rome, won't he gun for our servants instead? Kill Proserpina, dismantle spy network, this kind of thing?

ctulhuslp said:

Okay, yeah, existence of Pompeus kinda mucks around with an idea of staying in Italy.

Hm. Without us close to Rome, won't he gun for our servants instead? Kill Proserpina, dismantle spy network, this kind of thing?

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Possibly. Also the chance of 'bandits' burning our vineyard and/or estate or us dying in a 'drunken brawl' or a 'Samnite ambush.'

Caesar said:

Finally, I'm not sure we can count on getting on with Sertorius. We're in tight with Scaevola, who's in tight with Sulla, who blocked Sertorius from winning a tribunate.

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He knew our father, so that should hopefully give us at least a chance to prove ourselves.
Reading his patron-description again I'm not sure whether he was our fathers "fast friend and loyal ally". Or, if those were characteristics our father attributed him?