The Politics of Tabletop RPGs

But Guns are Dishonorable, as are all foreigners because this is John Wick's version of japan, not a more interesting "closer to reality" japan.
That's explicitly portrayed as them going overboard after the foreigners who introduced guns did something stupid. They aren't actually portrayed as being right about it. When it happened they were still studying guns and were preparing to have a trade agreement with the foreigners.
 
Give me Rokugani teppo pls
But Guns are Dishonorable, as are all foreigners because this is John Wick's version of japan, not a more interesting "closer to reality" japan.

I'm going to note that, iirc, FFG is walking back on NO GAIJIN EVAR, although I haven't kept up on the rebooted metaplot so you'd have to ask one of the other L5R nerds.

As far as teppo goes, I like that as an alternate setting (Y HALLO THAR IRON ROKUGAN). Not so much as base, I'll admit- but I'd preobably solve that by setting Rokugan's timeline in that period before firearms get introduced, not by Fantasy Gun Control Only Dishonorable Scum Use Guns.
 
But even so, Lawful does indicate respect for authority, following the law as such rather than the ideals of justice as long as the two don't clash, upholding the traditional order, etc etc.
Strictly speaking, no it doesn't. Being Lawful does not require you to obey the law; it requires you to obey a law. Being Lawful means having a rigid, ordered outlook; Lawful people are the sort who plan out their day, and strongly believe in a personal code. A given person's code might include obeying the law, but what made Paladins Lawful was adhere to their Code, not to the laws of any given society.
 
Fun fact: in 2e Skeletons are not evil, and creating them is not evil if the person agreed to it prior to death. So, it's entirely possible to have a good aligned society built on undead labor.
Hell, the big thing my necromancer did was make contracts with all of the nearby knackeries and slaughterhouses (or individual contracts with nearby farmers in more rural areas). It's practical, it builds ties with local communities, and it makes it really hard for people to make moral cases against what you're doing on utilitarian grounds, because you're practicing the ultimate in green recycling.

But Guns are Dishonorable, as are all foreigners because this is John Wick's version of japan, not a more interesting "closer to reality" japan.

OK, I've been exposed to the Keanu Reeves movie a lot more than I have the game designer. Did anyone else get seriously, seriously, seriously confused at this comment on first read?
 
Strictly speaking, no it doesn't. Being Lawful does not require you to obey the law; it requires you to obey a law. Being Lawful means having a rigid, ordered outlook; Lawful people are the sort who plan out their day, and strongly believe in a personal code. A given person's code might include obeying the law, but what made Paladins Lawful was adhere to their Code, not to the laws of any given society.

No, I disagree with that take. Anyone can come up with a code to follow, even if it involves chaotic goals. Alignments are not personality types, they don't involve having a scheduled day. Someone who stands for the state and is flighty is far more lawful than someone who schedules everything precisely and undermines the authorities.

A lawful person has to care about a lawful society and such, law in some wider context.
 
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Also, that's the way we get "lol look at me sooo random" folks on the Chaotic side of things, and nobody wants that. The Lawful/Chaotic axis is about relationship to authority, established norms, etc, not about how ordered one's personal life is.
 
The ethics of undead vary between settings. In some, it's a violation of the natural cycle of life and death. In others, it's not as bad but still involves negative energy which tends to be corrupting. In Eberron, the Unliving are a positive energy/*good* variety.


Also, that's the way we get "lol look at me sooo random" folks on the Chaotic side of things, and nobody wants that. The Lawful/Chaotic axis is about relationship to authority, established norms, etc, not about how ordered one's personal life is.

Quite. A lawful person can still oppose a state, but, like, they can want a different lawful state, an increase in how ordered it is, and so on. Or for completely different reasons- viewing family X as the proper royals, viewing it as too good/evil for their other alignment component, having a personal grudge, etc..
 
The ethics of undead vary between settings. In some, it's a violation of the natural cycle of life and death. In others, it's not as bad but still involves negative energy which tends to be corrupting. In Eberron, the Unliving are a positive energy/*good* variety.




Quite. A lawful person can still oppose a state, but, like, they can want a different lawful state, an increase in how ordered it is, and so on. Or for completely different reasons- viewing family X as the proper royals, viewing it as too good/evil for their other alignment component, having a personal grudge, etc..
It varies even within the settings. You have good liches (baelnorn), neutral ones (archliches, who become undead to fulfill some specific obsession), and evil ones (standard lich), you have Reverend Ones which are basically good elf death knights who appear from the afterlife to defend elven kingdoms, you have the Netherese Zombies who retained their minds and personalities, Watchghosts who devoted themselves to protecting their family lines, etc...
 
No, I disagree with that take. Anyone can come up with a code to follow, even if it involves chaotic goals. Alignments are not personality types, they don't involve having a scheduled day. Someone who stands for the state and is flighty is far more lawful than someone who schedules everything precisely and undermines the authorities.

A lawful person has to care about a lawful society and such, law in some wider context.
Uh. What 'take'? This isn't my personal opinion, this is what the player's handbooks have laid out about alignments as far back as 3.5, when Lawful Neutral characters, the ones who put Law above all else, were described as acting "... as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount to her. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government." Monks are Lawful as well you know, and monks frequently have very little to do with the laws of society - when they aren't actively opposing it.

Alignments are far more about means than goals. A Lawful person who opposes the state almost certainly wants to replace it with a different, more orderly state, but that's because they care about Law as an ideal, and laws as an expression of that ideal. There again, they might just want to overthrow the state and not give a damn about the anarchy that ensues, because that's tangential to their (presumably orderly) goals. Law as an alignment hasn't been monofocused on societal law since AD&D.
 
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Uh. What 'take'? This isn't my personal opinion, this is what the player's handbooks have laid out about alignments as far back as 3.5, when Lawful Neutral characters, the ones who put Law above all else, were described as acting "... as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount to her. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government." Monks are Lawful as well you know, and monks frequently have very little to do with the laws of society - when they aren't actively opposing it.

Honestly 3/4ths of the problems of alignment comes from the conflating of these aspects and vague descriptions like that. 'Live by a code' is just far too generic unless one considers whether the code, itself, is one that skews lawful.

The Sith have a code and pretty much are an embodiment of a chaotic society- the strong survive, trickery and betrayal is accepted and encouraged, etc..
 
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It varies even within the settings. You have good liches (baelnorn), neutral ones (archliches, who become undead to fulfill some specific obsession), and evil ones (standard lich), you have Reverend Ones which are basically good elf death knights who appear from the afterlife to defend elven kingdoms, you have the Netherese Zombies who retained their minds and personalities, Watchghosts who devoted themselves to protecting their family lines, etc...
The entire Deathless concept as well which was a pretty interesting way to go about it.

Hell, with 5e, you have the Revenant which can be of any alignment, just that they keep coming back until whatever purpose they have is complete
 
The entire Deathless concept as well which was a pretty interesting way to go about it.

Hell, with 5e, you have the Revenant which can be of any alignment, just that they keep coming back until whatever purpose they have is complete
Revenants have been around forever. There was even a short story in one of the collections with one as the viewpoint character.
 
This has not been true for several editions.

I'm several pages behind so someone else might've replied to this already but uh.. Not quite.
D&D 5th edition said:
The evil deities who created other races, though, made those races to serve them. Those races have strong inborn tendencies that match the nature of their gods. Most orcs share the violent, savage nature of the orc god, Gruumsh, and are thus inclined toward evil. Even if an orc chooses a good alignment, it struggles against its innate tendencies for its entire life. (Even half-orcs feel the lingering pull of the orc god's influence.)
Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil.
 
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I'm several pages behind so someone else might've replied to this already but uh.. Not quite.
And yet we have things like Fall From Grace, the not evil Succubus. There was also a demon serving Lolth in the demonweb that was on the road towards "rising". For non-outsiders we have an entire tribe of pacifist orcs in FR that got enslaved by the Zhentarim. Then there's the Othlorx, "the uninvolved", a nation of both chromatic and metallic dragons who told Bahamut and Tiamat to fuck off when they came recruiting for the war between good and evil.
 
Good and Evil are qualities of magic in 5E; it has an objective morality mechanically baked in, unfortunately, and doesn't even have the collective solipsism angle of Planescape to justify it.
I'm gonna echo ManusDomine and express confusion and a desire to know where that's stated. 5e has done a lot to divorce itself from Good and Evil being tied to game mechanics. The Detect X spells and abilities now detect creature types not alignments. Paladins now follow codes of conduct specific to their Oath instead of needing to never willingly commit an Evil act. Paladins and Clerics don't do holy damage, they do radiant damage.

Is it the bit quoted above that the various outsiders now MUST hold to certain alignments, because if they weren't they wouldn't be devils or what have you? Or that orcs must struggle internally forever? Because I think the mechanics divorcing themselves from alignment is a much more important thing than the little fluff blurb that is easily invalidated by using a different setting, especially now that said alternate setting doesn't need to justify why some spells & abilities work differently there.
 
And yet we have things like Fall From Grace, the not evil Succubus. There was also a demon serving Lolth in the demonweb that was on the road towards "rising". For non-outsiders we have an entire tribe of pacifist orcs in FR that got enslaved by the Zhentarim. Then there's the Othlorx, "the uninvolved", a nation of both chromatic and metallic dragons who told Bahamut and Tiamat to fuck off when they came recruiting for the war between good and evil.

So how much of that is from 5e?
 
As far as I know, no characters have ever been made non-canon with the changing of editions, so your question is irrelevant

So if none of that is from fifth edition, then it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, which I will remind you is 'What is fifth edition's stance on alignment', not 'what was the stance of previous writers of specific settings of previous editions'.
 
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So I'm going to butt in with a game nobody's talked about that I can tell because I am literal cancer and also an unabashed Rifts nerd.

It is, in weird ways, actually fairly inclusive. The book authors do decent research in a lot of cases or even hire someone from the region, so you get stuff like Mystic Russia and the South America books which actually deal with local folklore and mythology as a base for the game in a somewhat respectable manner, or even the two China books which at least aren't terrible with it. (This attitude carried over into people's netbooks, like Rifts Arctic Circle heavily researching Intuit mythology.) As you may guess from what I'm saying it also is fairly good about dealing with racial issues. Even in purely the books focused on the authoritarian Coalition you have a somewhat respectable breakdown of ethnicity and gender.

On the other hand, you have the class of fan who are total Coalition States apologists when they are Putting On The Reich as a deliberate tactic about some stuff. It's a lesser version of the apologia you get for the Imperium in 40k, from two directions. The first is that such people are thinner on the ground. The other is that Rifts, unlike 40k, does a much better job of establishing that not everything getting thrown around is paranoid delusions and that a fair number of people in the setting can start slaughtering normal humans at the drop of a hat using nothing more than their natural talents. The result is that while the Coalition is obviously an oppressive wreck and kills a lot of perfectly harmless folks for being possible monsters, when an actual monster shows up how the Coalition handles that vs. how an actual enlightened nation like Lazlo handles it isn't always that different.
And they're also contrasted with, like, the NGR. A pro-human, not exactly equal society but a good measure better than the Coalition (nonhumans are second class citizens, but still considered people), who've been in a much more protracted bloody war and still retained higher morals than the CS. Or, well, Lazlo and similar better-but-smaller North American nations.

As a notable weak point, I will mention Rifts Africa is both one of the early books and isn't near the level of Mystic Russia or such- mostly it's an adventure book disguised as a worldbook with Africa's natives barely getting any material.

Oh, and Australia 2 and 3 were cancelled because the writer for them was apparently racist against Aborigines so Kevin scrapped 'em.
As a Rifts fan myself I largely agree with these assessments. I'd like to add.

-Rifts has had a problem with the depiction of Roma, particularly in the sourcebook which introduced the aforementioned New German Republic (NGR). There are several classes for Gypsies, every single one of which is a variation on "thief" or "con artist." While not as bad as, say, Vampire the Masquerade, it's still not a proud moment for the game.

-Earlier Rifts books (early to mid 1990s) in general have very uneven writing, and Africa was hardly the only book to suffer from it. England had nothing interesting save for a token attempt to play with Arthurian myth, Japan lacked any named NPCs to speak of, and the first NGR book lacked even the most basic information on the nation's politics or its culture. We had to wait until the second NGR book released in 2016 to get that. There were still plenty of good books in that era (e.g. Mercenaries, Sourcebook 1, and South America), but it really wasn't until Juicer Uprising that there was more consistent quality in the writing and characterization.

-The fanboys for the Coalition States are indeed a problem. I believe one of the reasons they've been so persistent is that for a long time the characterization of the CS was all over the place. Earlier books especially seemed very ambivalent about them. It wasn't until the turn of the millennium with the Siege on Tolkeen plot arc that they were willing to straight up say "Yeah, these guys are Nazis."
 
I wouldn't say they're that ambivalent before that. That the CS went around and butchered innocent D-Bees, mages, and you're pretty much expected to fight against them was fairly clear. There were iirc some direct comparisons to Nazis even in-universe too.

I'd say almost the opposite- over time the Coalition States has been shown to overlook harmless DBs more (even while still retaining the right to kill them for no reason), and the demon invasion storyline allowed them to be in the relatively-heroic side.

I'm several pages behind so someone else might've replied to this already but uh.. Not quite.

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D&D 5ed
The evil deities who created other races, though, made those races to serve them. Those races have strong inborn tendencies that match the nature of their gods. Most orcs share the violent, savage nature of the orc god, Gruumsh, and are thus inclined toward evil. Even if an orc chooses a good alignment, it struggles against its innate tendencies for its entire life. (Even half-orcs feel the lingering pull of the orc god's influence.)
Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil.

5ed is I think the *most* explicit about this compared to other editions, contrary to what one might expect. I will say 'ceasing to be a devil' is quite possible.


Pathfinder is more in line with other editions, and one of the big adventure path has a redeemed demon as one of your big allies- and it mentions for an after-game bonus that converting possibly the most powerful of the Demon Lords is a possible way for the game to go! I mean, best-case scenario there is her becoming a chaotic neutral goddess of assassinations, but hey, victory is a victory. Also, they really gotta include some redeemed demons that aren't ex-succubi at one point... I can see the appeal and 'interacts with mortals the most' is even a not bad Watsonian explanation, but still!

Eberron is also explicit that nothing is "Always X". Even the mind-possessing outsider entities have defectors, and any mortal one even more-so, and even beings of an alignment won't always be that way on everything. One of the kingdoms of lead by an evil vampire... who honestly seeks lasting peace for his country for good reasons.
 
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To be clear, I was just responding to the bit about how "but morality and social behavior are literally inheritable within certain races (e.g. Always Chaotic Evil)." hasn't been true for several editions, which that quote seems to contradict, that's all. I'm not familiar enough with D&D in general, and in fact only just started playing 5th edition a few weeks ago, to go into a deeper discussion about it with any semblance of actual knowledge on the subject.
 
I wouldn't say they're that ambivalent before that. That the CS went around and butchered innocent D-Bees, mages, and you're pretty much expected to fight against them was fairly clear. There were iirc some direct comparisons to Nazis even in-universe too.

I'd say almost the opposite- over time the Coalition States has been shown to overlook harmless DBs more (even while still retaining the right to kill them for no reason), and the demon invasion storyline allowed them to be in the relatively-heroic side.



5ed is I think the *most* explicit about this compared to other editions, contrary to what one might expect. I will say 'ceasing to be a devil' is quite possible.


Pathfinder is more in line with other editions, and one of the big adventure path has a redeemed demon as one of your big allies- and it mentions for an after-game bonus that converting possibly the most powerful of the Demon Lords is a possible way for the game to go! I mean, best-case scenario there is her becoming a chaotic neutral goddess of assassinations, but hey, victory is a victory. Also, they really gotta include some redeemed demons that aren't ex-succubi at one point... I can see the appeal and 'interacts with mortals the most' is even a not bad Watsonian explanation, but still!

Eberron is also explicit that nothing is "Always X". Even the mind-possessing outsider entities have defectors, and any mortal one even more-so, and even beings of an alignment won't always be that way on everything. One of the kingdoms of lead by an evil vampire... who honestly seeks lasting peace for his country for good reasons.
Morag was a Marilith in service to Lolth and she ascended. Still female, but not a succubus.
 
I do not think that this approach can be applied only with Western culture. But on the other hand, I see problems with this approach, in terms of presentation of other cultures.

Although I would like to hear why you think this is disrespectful and towards whom it is disrespectful.

As for the second approach, it sounds interesting. And the third may fail to distances from real dynamics between countries.

Well, for example I know from previous threads on related topics that @Fivemarks wants to see characters who do not simply have dark skin color, but are actually culturally people he can relate to. Simply giving a variety of skin colors to a group that is culturally homogenous will give you the ability to say you can be a black man... by skin color alone. If people want to play a character with a different culture, they are being barred that option worse if you give the humans only a single culture at all.

Relatedly; I'm not saying it can only be done with a western culture, but when your example is 'Nords' who are, going by the name and my knowledge of skyrim, probably Fantasy Vikings, then you have picked a western culture as the Culture of Humanity. It also only barely matters what culture you do pick, in that you are, regardless, cutting out all ability to be from any culture expect your expy of a single real world culture. Picking one less represented at least means your game is representing something not typically represented, but if you want your single setting/game to represent a wide variety, going 'you can be a black man, Asian, Hispanic, etc, but you must be a Viking and nothing else' is not some dizzying height of inclusiveness. Not culturally. It's maybe better about shutting down the ability of people to say 'you can't be X skin color', but that's about it. It's not covering the cultural angle.
 
Honestly 3/4ths of the problems of alignment comes from the conflating of these aspects and vague descriptions like that. 'Live by a code' is just far too generic unless one considers whether the code, itself, is one that skews lawful.

The Sith have a code and pretty much are an embodiment of a chaotic society- the strong survive, trickery and betrayal is accepted and encouraged, etc..

It depends on what your Code is, obviously. I seem to recall a game, Neverwinter Nights maybe?, talking about how a LN Monk wouldn't feed the poor because of their personal code. Or maybe I'm making that up. I just remember distinctly a Monk is a great example of a Lawful person who honors their Code above the authority of the land or what one might consider "traditional morality" like feed the hungry.

The Sith Code has no real tenets or orders on conduct. It's very basic and you can interpret it in a lot of ways. You could be Palpatine or you could be Krayt, two very very different Sith who still follow the Code. Yet Krayt was Lawful whereas Palpatine is hardcore Neutral.

I always found this site extremely helpful when you need alignment info and references.


Anyway, I don't actually play any board games so I have nothing to contribute to their politics. Shame this isn't about video game RPGs but oh well.
 
To rerail things back towards less represented societies in settings, I think there is an important point to be made that allowing people to play an ethnicity is a different kettle of fish then playing someone from a culture. Ethnicity is... look, of the four D&D settings I have good awareness of one is a post apocalyptic wasteland (Dark Suns) where what ethnicity you are is a description detail, Eberron has all of humanity emigrating from a kinda Asia-ish continent, but most of the art is of white people (or other races. Or robots) and the marginalized ethnicity is the part animal one. And the other major ethnicties are full up shapeshifters, and people symbiotically linked to this dream eldritch abominations trying to stop the world form ending. Again, most of what we would consider ethnicties has no effect on the setting.

The other two are Forgotten Realms and Golarion, which tend more to mirror real world places and people. FR from what I understand does a less then stellar job of it, but WotC stopped with detailed setting stuff after 3.5 (one of the things that really annoys me about modern D&D- no setting books really digging into places). Regardless, it largely ignores ethnicity as a cultural indicator as well.

Which means now I need to talk about Golarion, aka the one setting I can think of off hand that actually has ethnicities detailed. Well, that isn't modern-ish. But Golarion's thing is it's a cultural kitchen sink: if it exists IRL, there's a reasonable approximation somewhere in the setting. Plus more fantasy stuff.

I can't really comment as to how good/respectful said stuff is, and it's gotten less focus then it could (one problem with the include everything approach- that is an unbelievable amount of work, Golarion probably still has decades of setting books left in it) but as Pathfinder is still updating stuff things do change over time. Not that the current state is bad- yes, the Mwangi Expanse is a thing, but the Rahadoum and Thuvia are primarily black to, and they are very much not the sterotype, along with other nations deeper in the continent. But that is the thing- the instant you include societies and cultures based on say Africans, you can fuck it up. For someone who wants to be respectful, that's intimidating unless you know the subject matter well, and there is a lack of good entry level stuff on the subject.

This isn't really an excuse, but it is a problem- a lot of the time I suspect writers just didn't think of this because there is such dearth of good examples. I'm less then sure of how to fix this, beyond 'find writers who are good at it and turn them loose'. And get WotC to make a new bloody setting and actually promote it, because that would be huge thing for visibility.
 
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