Chiming in. My interest is in mage the ascension.

If i want to run a mage the ascension game, there are over 40 books to read (the ones i've got and i'm pretty sure it's incomplete). That's a very intimidating number of books.
 
Chiming in. My interest is in mage the ascension.

If i want to run a mage the ascension game, there are over 40 books to read (the ones i've got and i'm pretty sure it's incomplete). That's a very intimidating number of books.
You can also just run it out of the corebook+mage? There's a fuckton of expansion books in case you want extra shit, but all the tools you actually need to run it are there. Figure out what plot you want, read over the setting and mechanics in the Core and Ascension book, and gather some interested friends. No need to make it complicated.
 
You can also just run it out of the corebook+mage? There's a fuckton of expansion books in case you want extra shit, but all the tools you actually need to run it are there. Figure out what plot you want, read over the setting and mechanics in the Core and Ascension book, and gather some interested friends. No need to make it complicated.
Nah, Ascension just needs one book. It's nWoD that needs a corebook, and IIRC Mage 2e has the core rules included.
 
You can also just run it out of the corebook+mage? There's a fuckton of expansion books in case you want extra shit, but all the tools you actually need to run it are there. Figure out what plot you want, read over the setting and mechanics in the Core and Ascension book, and gather some interested friends. No need to make it complicated.

A player can get by with core, mage, tradition/conventionX2 because revised editions, and whatever mechanical extra bits they want.

A gm needs those, plus all the ones the players read, plus whatever ones for the plot they might want.

Plus grokking the Mage settings and themes ain't exactly a two book deal.
 
A player can get by with core, mage, tradition/conventionX2 because revised editions, and whatever mechanical extra bits they want.

A gm needs those, plus all the ones the players read, plus whatever ones for the plot they might want.

Plus grokking the Mage settings and themes ain't exactly a two book deal.
Nope. You need the books you want. If a player read a bunch of others, that's on them. Tell them "I'm only using the corebook, no extra stuff". If they throw a fit, kick them out of the group. Playing with people like that is a waste of everyone's time. Mage is seriously not as complex as you're making it out to be. It just pontificates a lot because that's part of its aesthetic.
 
If a player read a bunch of others, that's on them. Tell them "I'm only using the corebook, no extra stuff". If they throw a fit, kick them out of the group. Playing with people like that is a waste of everyone's time.

And if they politely ask? Or if they bring a concept to the table like say...a crafter which means reading the crafting bool, then what?

Limiting the box for the sake of sanity is fair enough, but saying it's "a waste of everyone's time" and hypothesizing about a nonexistent player of 'throwing a fit' seems rather abrupt.

In addition, saying the complexity is false then following up with calling it a part of the aesthetic is saying the complexity is a part of the game. Discarding it is again, fair enough, but it's a sacrifice and not to be taken lightly. And if done, it should be acknowledged.

Something like Mage: Lite, not Mage: Philosophical knife fights, social insanity and conspiracy gambit pileup. Those are the parts i enjoy in oWoD Mage.

Edit: I should stop, there is another thread for this.
 
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The corebook and core setting book of your choice are enough for the general vibe of the game, but you actually have to read and put some effort into comprehending what they're putting down, not just skim over it for highlights. Supplements are for expanding your understanding of pieces of lore and giving you more ideas on how to do things.
 
tbh I find supplement books are... well, supplement, hardly necessary? Corebook + Core splatbook (for nWoD) is generally enough. Throw in a book relevant to your scenario, if necessary (for example, a Night Horror book), plus whatever supplement your players use (if they bothered to read more than you).
 
You can just always refuse, you know? Like, I don't really want to deal with Exalted 3e crafting system, so I just banned them. There are homebrew, of course, but that's for another day. Simple enough.
 
So favorite weird school of magic/skill across the gamelines?

Like aphyx or Blur alchemie for example

also can i ask a question about mages, (it's a rather freeform system, but they have to still like create a spell right? you cant just on the fly say 'i use mind 2 and matter 2 to do X' right?)
 
You totally can, actually! It's not as efficient as proper spell with ritual, focus, and other bonus, but you can!

In fact, that's how most Mage players does things.
 
You totally can, actually! It's not as efficient as proper spell with ritual, focus, and other bonus, but you can!

In fact, that's how most Mage players does things.

Not sure how I feel about that honestly, feels far too freeform, I suppose that goes into my issue of mages in both gamelines tend to get the preferential power treatment due to how powerful there abilities tend to be, Owod was better at least cause at least there was some form of 'high level vampire/ect' thing to counterbalance it instead of 'oh they exist, we're just not gonna talk about them' which is the exact same as having them not exist at all
 
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You can just always refuse, you know? Like, I don't really want to deal with Exalted 3e crafting system, so I just banned them.

Honestly, hot take here, but you should probably ban anyone automatically whose character concept is "a crafter". It's a peculiarly game-ised concept that always requires disproportionate amounts of dev time and warps the game around it. You can accept characters who can do such things, but it can't be the focus of their character.

Hotter take - most RPGs would be vastly improved if devs stopped enabling the idea of "the crafter" when they're not going to do the same for other long-term options.
 
Not sure how I feel about that honestly, feels far too freeform, I suppose that goes into my issue of mages in both gamelines tend to get the preferential power treatment due to how powerful there abilities tend to be, Owod was better at least cause at least there was some form of 'high level vampire/ect' thing to counterbalance it instead of 'oh they exist, we're just not gonna talk about them' which is the exact same as having them not exist at all

There are a lot more details on casting at nWoD 2.0, which makes them less game-breaking than other edition. Like by default, your range is either yourself or touch, that kind of thing.
 
There are a lot more details on casting at nWoD 2.0, which makes them less game-breaking than other edition. Like by default, your range is either yourself or touch, that kind of thing.

Hmmmm maybe, but I suppose it touches on my issues with both mage editions of 'mage get to become nigh omnipotent' and how at least Owod had things that were somewhat near the level for the other gamelines, while chronicles just say 'oh there being vouched for by other things so the mages dont mess with them' which personally feels.... like it downplays and removes the importance of the other gamelines, and thats not even getting into some of the shit that lets mages do other gameline shit better than them....
 
Hmmmm maybe, but I suppose it touches on my issues with both mage editions of 'mage get to become nigh omnipotent' and how at least Owod had things that were somewhat near the level for the other gamelines, while chronicles just say 'oh there being vouched for by other things so the mages dont mess with them' which personally feels.... like it downplays and removes the importance of the other gamelines, and thats not even getting into some of the shit that lets mages do other gameline shit better than them....

WoD isn't really designed for crossovers. (Neither the old nor the new). You shouldn't use mage mechanics to build mage NPC's in a vampire game, and viceversa.

In a vampire game, human mages are weird occultists and blood mages and their powers are best represented as merits. In a mage game, if you want a vampire-like antagonist of similar power to the players, you don't want to use vampire mechanics either.

(In that note the best way to make vampires in oMage is to literally make them mages with a "i am a vampire" paradigm)
 
WoD isn't really designed for crossovers. (Neither the old nor the new). You shouldn't use mage mechanics to build mage NPC's in a vampire game, and viceversa.

In a vampire game, human mages are weird occultists and blood mages and their powers are best represented as merits. In a mage game, if you want a vampire-like antagonist of similar power to the players, you don't want to use vampire mechanics either.

(In that note the best way to make vampires in oMage is to literally make them mages with a "i am a vampire" paradigm)

Yeah but the issue is at least in owod the mages where still there in the vampire metaplot, they still nuked the shit out of that one antedulivian with literal technomancy space mirrors and neutron bombed him, and I dont mean crossovers balance, what I mean is more 'my investment in setting' type deal, like if I play a promethean or vampire and the thought in my head is 'archmages will undo this with retcons' in the case of chronicles, it kinda ruins my enjoyment, especially since we have like devs kinda not helping in that regard as the other gamelines are said 'oh they have people vouching for them' and no details are given, so unless the mage devs wanna just fucking hugely retweak archmages, I cant really invest myself heavily into wod when you have devs like 'oh yeah a mage perfected shit is also as good as cold iron and they can also fuck with true fae and changelings with fate lol', yes yes you can say 'oh your storyteller does that' but this is my gripe with chronicles, I dont like it and it partially ruins my enjoyment
 
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like if I play a promethean or vampire and the thought in my head is 'archmages will undo this with retcons' in the case of chronicles, it kinda ruins my enjoyment, especially since we have like devs kinda not helping in that regard as the other gamelines are said 'oh they have people vouching for them' and no details are given, so unless the mage devs wanna just fucking hugely retweak archmages, I

I mean Archmages are stupid even in Mage

Just ignore them, they aren't necesary for the game at all
 
I mean Archmages are stupid even in Mage

Just ignore them, they aren't necesary for the game at all

Yeah, but it kinda is one of those things that always lurks at the periphery or both wod's, unless they retcon them or make it so all there reality warping is just them in lotus eater machines than its hard for me, i know its stupid but still
 
Honestly, hot take here, but you should probably ban anyone automatically whose character concept is "a crafter". It's a peculiarly game-ised concept that always requires disproportionate amounts of dev time and warps the game around it. You can accept characters who can do such things, but it can't be the focus of their character.

Hotter take - most RPGs would be vastly improved if devs stopped enabling the idea of "the crafter" when they're not going to do the same for other long-term options.

But... but crafting...

*sigh* Okay, I will grant you that crafting is really really hard to do right in an interesting way. And that I've never once seen a game that did a really good job of it, and only a few that have sufficiently done good job that I think there's something to be learned from them other than "how not to do it." All of which are video games.

.... but dammit, I love the idea, of being ... honestly, what I think of as "a real wizard", someone who can sit down and look out at the world and say "if I want to work this miracle, I need those parts in this configuration," and then just do it. Some of that is Sorcery. Some of that is crafting. (And a lot of it is outright Charm creation or writing your own fluff, lol). Most of all, though -- it's a feeling you absolutely cannot get from any amount of ... of limited spell lists and pre-balanced Charms, something that you can only vaguely touch upon with freeform magic like Mage or Ars Magica, the feeling of really biting your teeth into a good engineering problem and making something work.

I would be very sad if people gave up on crafting in games. Particularly in tabletop games, which until we get safe AI good enough to be an ST is the closest we're ever going to come to being a freeform mage in real life. Computer games just can't handle that degree of lateral thinking yet -- except games that are basically nothing but alt-physics simulators or that otherwise are basically entirely designed about the idea of building a world. I don't think I've ever seen a game that both has a nontrivial crafting system and a meaningful plot.

(My answer to your second point is that they probably should do the same for other long-term options, lol. How many times have we complained that Exalted doesn't have a Bureaucracy system, or even much of a social system -- and so for a game that's supposed to be more about being sorcerer-kings that rule the world, it's awfully hard to actually run a nation-building game.)
 
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Yeah, but it kinda is one of those things that always lurks at the periphery or both wod's, unless they retcon them or make it so all there reality warping is just them in lotus eater machines than its hard for me, i know its stupid but still

nWoD isn't supposed to be a "everything exists all at once" setting. The gamelines are self-contained, and the books are a toolkit of things you the GM can use to help you construct a game, not metaplot. For example, if you're playing Vampire, mages, werewolves and whatnot may very well simply not exist. If something like them exists, they probably won't be using the mechanics of straight up PC Mages because that will result in an instantaneous TPK. Do not play crossover in nWoD unless you're playing very similar splats, and even then, it's not built to do that and you're gonna have problems.

Assume the only thing that exists when you're playing Vampire to be stuff in the blue/generic book line and the Vampire line if your GM owns everything, and if they don't then just the stuff they personally have. If your GM goes off the rails and tries to run a megacrossover kitchen sink game, warn him that his game is going to explode because he's playing with chlorine trifluoride.
 
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If you want a working game simultaneously to wanting freeform stuff that isn't just reskins, that's not gonna end well.

Mage, for example, is really The Game Of Whether You Can Bullshit Your GM.
*shrug* I would like to try. Whether or not that is difficult or impossible, that is nevertheless precisely what I want from games: decent balance while being as flexible and freeform as possible. I'm not in the habit of not trying when something looks impossible.

I do have the advantage that unlike White Wolf/Onyx Publishing/whatever they're called nowadays, I don't have to write for the entire Exalted fanbase, I can just write with the assumption that I'm dealing with mature STs and mature players cooperating to make a fun game, so my rules only have to be not accidentally game-breaking the way, say, the combat rules are; they don't need to stand up to a determined attempt to break them. In that regard, certainly if you're playing "against" your ST, Mage is "can you bullshit your GM into accepting this", but... it's not that hard, IME, to come up with a somewhat fuzzy but reasonably rigorous set of rules for what sorts of effects require how much xp expenditure, and interaction rules for the results, that don't break the setting in half and also don't get either you or your NPCs killed on accident the way the Exalted rules do. I agree you can't do this and still make it stand up to intentional rules abuse, but... I'm pretty much fine with that?
 
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