White Wolf's World of Darkness

[MJ12 Commando]

A question, how does the God machine fit into the platonic reality of Mage the Awakening?

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As the ramblings of a deranged person who saw something that man was not meant to know or understand and can be used as a plot hook for just about anything the ST wants, like it was in nWoD First Edition. Trying to fit the God-Machine into a game that isn't Demon in any other way is going to make people sad. The God-Machine as presented in nWoD 2E works great for a Demon-primary game and just kind of... doesn't work at all for literally any other type of splat or type of game. Thematically, the God-Machine is anathema to a lot of the themes of other WoD lines, because Demon is not a game about humanity, not in the sense other nWoD games are. It's a game about state power and about espionage and ideology and politics and the awful things you do in service to all of these. There's a reason that the Demon 'morality' stat is Cover, rather than an actual 'morality' stat.

And for a lot of splats it's even worse because they're not designed around the God-Machine and what it can do. It's a singular entity that is incredibly setting-consuming because it has relatively few internal conflicts, it acts on a very large scale, it has the mundane powers to make anyone's lives incredibly fucking miserable without spending much (if any) effort, and if you piss it off enough it will send Seraph Team Six to murder you and everyone you love. Most splats don't have the ability to literally cast their lives off and take up another one-even Mages have it rough there.

 

[OctarineShrike]

The Pure are a group of three vaguely aligned cults that make heavy use of Stockholm Syndrome and the Sunk-Cost Fallacy, also Bale Hounds are a thing.

IIRC there are cults that worship some True Fae, as well as some True Fae that make heavy use of religious symbolism/aesthetics.
edit:
Also IIRC some people worship imprisoned/enslaved Prometheans as Idols.
Yes, this goes just as badly as you would assume.

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Wow. Religion in a CofD crossover setting probably has a crazy amount of cults.

 

[SinisterPorpoise]

Wow. Religion in a CofD crossover setting probably has a crazy amount of cults.

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Yeah, basically in CofD Mystery Cults never went out of fashion, and if anything got even more popular.
If not exactly mainstream.
edit:
Although IIRC the word "Cult" pretty much just refers to any religion or religious movement/organization that started up after the 1800s and/or isn't "officially" recognized as a religion, as well as any group that splinters off of a more mainstream religion that their parent group wants to denigrate.

 

[Nikkolas]

Wow. Religion in a CofD crossover setting probably has a crazy amount of cults.

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Vampire Catholicism is where it's at my friend. Two of teh big factions in the CofD Vampire setting are explicitly religious and it's awesome. Neopaganism - the Circle of the Crone - is pretty cool, too.

Then you combine the Vampire Catholicism with Neopaganism and get the Livian Heresy where Longinus' mother is Mother of Vampires. She is after all the dark reflection of Mary.

The Testament of Longinus is really good reading and also cheap. Totally recommend.

 

[AshenFox]

A question, how does the God machine fit into the platonic reality of Mage the Awakening?

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At base? As others have said very awkwardly.
I'll admit that I've been more curious lately how other STs fit the God Machine into their own settings and what its ultimate purpose is in their own games.
This is due to vigorous debating and thought exercises due to my player who's super into learning nWoD stuff now that they've found out it exists (from what I understand they're almost through every Awakening book at this point).

(Also, yes MJ12, as depicted as a Literal God Machine any explanation is going to 'cheapen it'. But so is any explanation of anything. )

Various Theories include:

1. Remember how one of the endings for Ascension has all of the Avatars get sent off into a new universe? What if that universe in the nWoD and the God Machine is some remnant of Autochthonia or just the Technocracy in general who managed to also slip into this new universe?
   
2. What if it's part of a machine created to self replicate and repair made by a Mage who stored most of it outside of existence in some previous version of reality, such that it was at least partially shielded from an Archmage induced rewrite? So not it's damaged and doesn't really know what to do besides keep getting bigger?
   
3. What if it's an alien civilization's von Neumann probe. End goals being to create and spread more of itself and perhaps a Stygian Gate?
4. What if it's basically the Combine from Half-Life?
   
5. What if it's the spirit of the Internet?
6. What if it's an ancient alien defense mechanism meant to keep hostile aliens away for any number of a variety of reasons? (Subnautica's quarantine system for example.)

 

[SinisterPorpoise]

Various Theories include:

1. Remember how one of the endings for Ascension has all of the Avatars get sent off into a new universe? What if that universe in the nWoD and the God Machine is some remnant of Autochthonia or just the Technocracy in general who managed to also slip into this new universe?
2. What if it's part of a machine created to self replicate and repair made by a Mage who stored most of it outside of existence in some previous version of reality, such that it was at least partially shielded from an Archmage induced rewrite? So not it's damaged and doesn't really know what to do besides keep getting bigger?

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Having it be a system from a previous iteration of reality seems best.
It screwing around with the world could be it attempting to "repair" what it perceives as damage, meaning the differences between this world and previous ones.

 

[Nikkolas]

As I noted over on other forums when I first learned of the G-M, God being a computer is oddly common all things considered.

The Shin Megami Tensei games have the fores of Heaven usually being depicted as robots of some kind. YHVH - God in the game - is a big Patrick Stewart head, though.

In the shojo manga Angel Sanctuary God is revealed to be a computer at the end testing an equation.

It's an odd theme and clearly not just a coincidence. I wouldn't be surprised if the writers of nWoD had some knowledge of SMT but even then I'm sure SMT didn't invent the concept. I dunno where they all got the idea of God/Angels are machines.

What's always puzzled me is machines have to be built. Who built God?

 

[SinisterPorpoise]

What's always puzzled me is machines have to be built. Who built God?

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The usual non-answer to this question is "God created Himself".
Or "The Real God created a substitute/replacement and fucked off to a permanent vacation".

 

[MJ12 Commando]

As I noted over on other forums when I first learned of the G-M, God being a computer is oddly common all things considered.

The Shin Megami Tensei games have the fores of Heaven usually being depicted as robots of some kind. YHVH - God in the game - is a big Patrick Stewart head, though.

In the shojo manga Angel Sanctuary God is revealed to be a computer at the end testing an equation.

It's an odd theme and clearly not just a coincidence. I wouldn't be surprised if the writers of nWoD had some knowledge of SMT but even then I'm sure SMT didn't invent the concept. I dunno where they all got the idea of God/Angels are machines.

What's always puzzled me is machines have to be built. Who built God?

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The God-Machine isn't a computer. It's very specifically not presented as a computer in Demon and the GMC, but rather it's presented as an emergent, semi-ordered structure created through institutions and infrastructure. There's no singular "God-Machine" that you can talk to any more than you can go and call a number and talk to "The United States of America." Because the God-Machine is literally a supernatural metaphor for a government, and specifically it's a metaphor for a Schmittian government, because as a sovereign entity it has the power to transcend the rules it sets itself for the Greater Good, as its processes get to define.

And more importantly, that Greater Good is specifically kept undefined and is pretty much irrelevant for pretty much 100% of all games, because it really doesn't matter what overarching plan and rationale it has, when most of your interaction with it is local and smaller-scale.

It doesn't matter that because of American internal politics preventing the withdrawal of American military forces from Pakistan, and because of the need to not look weak lest the opposition party take advantage of it, the executive branch of the US is stepping up drone strikes. It matters that because of a decision made by America's local Defense Infrastructure, your son just got exploded by a guided missile in the middle of their wedding, and his brothers and sisters got exploded by the double-tap when they went to help. And now you want to make America pay.

 

[Nikkolas]

The God-Machine isn't a computer. It's very specifically not presented as a computer in Demon and the GMC, but rather it's presented as an emergent, semi-ordered structure created through institutions and infrastructure. There's no singular "God-Machine" that you can talk to any more than you can go and call a number and talk to "The United States of America." Because the God-Machine is literally a supernatural metaphor for a government, and specifically it's a metaphor for a Schmittian government, because as a sovereign entity it has the power to transcend the rules it sets itself for the Greater Good, as its processes get to define.

And more importantly, that Greater Good is specifically kept undefined and is pretty much irrelevant for pretty much 100% of all games, because it really doesn't matter what overarching plan and rationale it has, when most of your interaction with it is local and smaller-scale.

It doesn't matter that because of American internal politics preventing the withdrawal of American military forces from Pakistan, and because of the need to not look weak lest the opposition party take advantage of it, the executive branch of the US is stepping up drone strikes. It matters that because of a decision made by America's local Defense Infrastructure, your son just got exploded by a guided missile in the middle of their wedding, and his brothers and sisters got exploded by the double-tap when they went to help. And now you want to make America pay.

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This reminds me how over on SA the Exarchs are said to represent Capitalism, the Surveillence State, Great Man theory of History and a few other things Lefties hate.

I'm not saying you're wrong - the G-M could be exactly as you say. I certainly wouldn't know since I haven't read up on DtD at all.

But my impression of CofD, and indeed something I see it criticized for, was dropping the "Punk" from "Gothic Punk" and having less overt politics. It is not all about sticking it to the man like oWoD where one game line had an evil organization literally called the Hierarchy.

 

[OctarineShrike]

This reminds me how over on SA the Exarchs are said to represent Capitalism, the Surveillence State, Great Man theory of History and a few other things Lefties hate.

I'm not saying you're wrong - the G-M could be exactly as you say. I certainly wouldn't know since I haven't read up on DtD at all.

But my impression of CofD, and indeed something I see it criticized for, was dropping the "Punk" from "Gothic Punk" and having less overt politics. It is not all about sticking it to the man like oWoD where one game line had an evil organization literally called the Hierarchy.

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If it wasn't I think punk/fight the power elements are finding their way back in.

Between Mage(Exarchs), Demon(God Machine), Geist 2e(The Systems of the Underworld), and the upcoming Deviant(Fight the mysterious conspiracies that made you), with bits of it in groups like the Carthian Movement and the Summer Court(Fight the True Fae), there are plenty of Jackasses and broken systems of power to challenge.

 

[The Laurent]

This reminds me how over on SA the Exarchs are said to represent Capitalism, the Surveillence State, Great Man theory of History and a few other things Lefties hate.

I'm not saying you're wrong - the G-M could be exactly as you say. I certainly wouldn't know since I haven't read up on DtD at all.

But my impression of CofD, and indeed something I see it criticized for, was dropping the "Punk" from "Gothic Punk" and having less overt politics. It is not all about sticking it to the man like oWoD where one game line had an evil organization literally called the Hierarchy.

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I mean, one of the Exarchs is literally said to represent Great Man Theory of History. As in, the actual Splat-book calls out that as being one of their lies/goals, to make people believe that there's Great Men and then there's everyone else, and therefore don't bother.

And there's also similar confirmation for the "Surveillence State" thing in the Seers book.

Capitalism I'm not so sure on, though. But the Exarchs are explicitly the predatory systems of society that make basically everything worse for everyone. They're the prison masters chaining the human soul to Lies.

 

[AshenFox]

Having it be a system from a previous iteration of reality seems best.
It screwing around with the world could be it attempting to "repair" what it perceives as damage, meaning the differences between this world and previous ones.

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Can indeed work, yeah.

I'll note that I've personally been working at trying to pin down when exactly the God Machine shows up in nWoD history.
There's no signs of it, that I recognized or saw, in the Sundered World era (5500 BCE - 5000 BCE) of Dark Ears but it is SPECIFICALLY mentioned in Forsaken by Rome (9-12CE).
(This narrows down either the point of emergence or the range of its influence.)

The Fall of Isireion also doesn't mention it that I noticed, but the Forsaken by Rome references demons speculating that Carthage was destroyed because it contained something that God Machine didn't want becoming known. Carthage was destroyed between 149 BCE and 146 BCE. Thought this could just be conjecture by Demons looking for meaning. Meanwhile as far as I recall there's no sign of the God Machine in To the Strongest which takes place from 330 BCE - 320 BCE.

(I like to try to pin down and find stuff like this because I tend to run games and it gives me options and ides. For example, I like how Japanese Uratha basically don't follow or believe in the Father Wolf mythos. It's fun an unique and actually tries to reinforce a much more 'local' and variant world of darkness, which was kind of part of the whole point of nWoD. To tone things down to much more city level and less giant conspiracies controlling everything everywhere all the time, so much so that you blow up the local overlords and somewhere far off some overlord of the local overlords goes, "All according to keikaku.")

 

[Nikkolas]

I mean, one of the Exarchs is literally said to represent Great Man Theory of History. As in, the actual Splat-book calls out that as being one of their lies/goals, to make people believe that there's Great Men and then there's everyone else, and therefore don't bother.

And there's also similar confirmation for the "Surveillence State" thing in the Seers book.

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That's interesting to know. Apparently the notion the writers sold out or some such nonsense was greatly exaggerated.

Which book was it exactly that associates an Exarch with the Great Man Theory? I already have a few nMage books I plan on getting, I'll just add this to the list.

 

[The Laurent]

That's interesting to know. Apparently the notion the writers sold out or some such nonsense was greatly exaggerated.

Which book was it exactly that associates an Exarch with the Great Man Theory? I already have a few nMage books I plan on getting, I'll just add this to the list.

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Well, Seers of the Throne includes sections on many of the major Exarchs. One of the four major Ministries is all about Surveillance. It isn't *just* the Surveillance State, admittedly. It also includes stuff like, "God is watching you. Always. All the time. Including right now. Sleep well." I could find the exact thing, but Seers of the Throne.

 

[The Laurent]

Here, one of the Lesser Exarchs (as in, a Ministry of one of the other six Exarchs other than the four that have a major Ministry devoted to them):

The Prophet: This Exarch's followers say Time is
propelled by the actions of the elect upon the guileless
masses. The ideal Seer is a "Great Man" who drives
history toward an inevitable triumph; Sleepers must
follow in lockstep or be crushed beneath the tide.

Edit: Also, Corporate Capitalism--

The Chancellor: The Exarch of Matter promotes
corporate capitalism and the commoditization of every
resource. Water, air, people — they should all have a
price, owner, and the ability to be bought and sold for
profit. The Chancellor's star rises under his Ministry
of Mammon, and Seers whisper that he'll one day be
recognized as an Archigenitor.

 

[Nikkolas]

Here, one of the Lesser Exarchs (as in, a Ministry of one of the other six Exarchs other than the four that have a major Ministry devoted to them):

The Prophet: This Exarch's followers say Time is
propelled by the actions of the elect upon the guileless
masses. The ideal Seer is a "Great Man" who drives
history toward an inevitable triumph; Sleepers must
follow in lockstep or be crushed beneath the tide.

Edit: Also, Corporate Capitalism--

The Chancellor: The Exarch of Matter promotes
corporate capitalism and the commoditization of every
resource. Water, air, people — they should all have a
price, owner, and the ability to be bought and sold for
profit. The Chancellor's star rises under his Ministry
of Mammon, and Seers whisper that he'll one day be
recognized as an Archigenitor.

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I was just at the WW Wiki too but sadly no listed Reference to where exactly they got the stuff on The Prophet.

Might be the Seers book I guess?

In any event, it seems the Exarchs are less subtle than the Technocracy.

 

[The Laurent]

I was just at the WW Wiki too but sadly no listed Reference to where exactly they got the stuff on The Prophet.

Might be the Seers book I guess?

In any event, it seems the Exarchs are less subtle than the Technocracy.

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Though, one thing with the Exarchs is that the Seers don't have to be involved at all. Whereas in oMage, from what I understand, there are places where the Technocracy's status-quo line has broken down or been ignored, you can be in a city where every last Seer has been brutally murdered and disposed of, to the glory of the Pentacle, and the Exarch still reigns, because they are racism, and sexism, they are every thing that divides humans from each other. The best prisoners are ones where the prisoners don't even try to escape, and instead spend all their time staring at the walls or attacking each other. The Exarchs are certainly *aided* by the Seers, and would be in trouble of the Seers disappeared, but the Seers are prisoners ratting out on their fellows for greater privileges.

There's a hint of this in oMage from what I can tell, in terms of consensual reality, and thus how you don't need a Technocrat standing nearby to be able to use Newtonian physics or etc. But there's a different vibe.

(Also, Kill the Gods and Topple Their Thrones.)

 

[Nikkolas]

Though, one thing with the Exarchs is that the Seers don't have to be involved at all. Whereas in oMage, from what I understand, there are places where the Technocracy's status-quo line has broken down or been ignored, you can be in a city where every last Seer has been brutally murdered and disposed of, to the glory of the Pentacle, and the Exarch still reigns, because they are racism, and sexism, they are every thing that divides humans from each other. The best prisoners are ones where the prisoners don't even try to escape, and instead spend all their time staring at the walls or attacking each other. The Exarchs are certainly *aided* by the Seers, and would be in trouble of the Seers disappeared, but the Seers are prisoners ratting out on their fellows for greater privileges.

There's a hint of this in oMage from what I can tell, in terms of consensual reality, and thus how you don't need a Technocrat standing nearby to be able to use Newtonian physics or etc. But there's a different vibe.

(Also, Kill the Gods and Topple Their Thrones.)

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Well that's the Neoplatonism. I find nMage much more intersting than oMage and the two have opposite metaphysical schemes. Plato's philosophy isgreat because the truth is literally out there. Objectivity and reality exists beyond our opinion. Consensus is, well, the total opposite. If everyone was a Nephandi, there goes the universe.

 

[Lady Insane]

As I noted over on other forums when I first learned of the G-M, God being a computer is oddly common all things considered.

The Shin Megami Tensei games have the fores of Heaven usually being depicted as robots of some kind. YHVH - God in the game - is a big Patrick Stewart head, though.

In the shojo manga Angel Sanctuary God is revealed to be a computer at the end testing an equation.

It's an odd theme and clearly not just a coincidence. I wouldn't be surprised if the writers of nWoD had some knowledge of SMT but even then I'm sure SMT didn't invent the concept. I dunno where they all got the idea of God/Angels are machines.

What's always puzzled me is machines have to be built. Who built God?

Click to shrink...

The earliest story I know of that uses God as a Machine is from November 1956 (The Last Question), and given it is Asimov may well have been the source of inspiration for some of those. Though in that case the machine becomes God after the end of the universe (it is implied) and is very definitely benevolent.

 

[Nikkolas]

I'm genuinely impressed by the guts it takes to say everything Leftists believe is vindicated because the super evil tyrants of the world made it so.

Granted, this was ten years ago, a little before the "get your politics out of my game (and replace them with my politics)" crowd got really loud and forceful.

Still, a little on the nose perhaps? I hope no Conservative wants to play this game.


Also I deleted this post and thought of putting it in the Mage thread but it says it's for Ascension so....? I dunno what to do. Just gonna put it here because it's continuing the conversation I was having in here.

 

[cmwatford]

I'm genuinely impressed by the guts it takes to say everything Leftists believe is vindicated because the super evil tyrants of the world made it so.

Granted, this was ten years ago, a little before the "get your politics out of my game (and replace them with my politics)" crowd got really loud and forceful.

Still, a little on the nose perhaps? I hope no Conservative wants to play this game.


Also I deleted this post and thought of putting it in the Mage thread but it says it's for Ascension so....? I dunno what to do. Just gonna put it here because it's continuing the conversation I was having in here.

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I'm fairly conservative and I fucking love Mage the Awakening. In fact I'm quite fond of NWoD as a whole. You can disagree with someone's politics and still like them and other things that they do. It's called being a mature adult and not succumbing to tribalism.

 

[Nikkolas]

I'm fairly conservative and I fucking love Mage the Awakening. In fact I'm quite fond of NWoD as a whole. You can disagree with someone's politics and still like them and other things that they do. It's called being a mature adult and not succumbing to tribalism.

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I agree, that is the ideal. I was certainly able to enjoy Bloodlines even though I disagreed with its clear Anarch favoritism.

But it can be a hard ideal to live up to. To use Bloodlines a an example, it had several endings so you could oppose the Anarchs and still not feel like the bad guy or that the narrative was against you. This is an RPG - there should be several valid paths, interpretations or ideologies.

 

[Queshire]

Eh, I find that reaction stranger than the fact that they did it myself.

 

[AshenFox]

Might be the Seers book I guess?

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Mage the Awakening: Seers of the Throne starting on page 40.

The Archigenitors (The top 4 Exarchs): The Eye (Space, incarnations of omniscience and the ability to act from afar), The Father (Prime, religion and in particular patriarch theme), The General (Forces. Ares, Athena, Violence, and Strategy.), The Unity (Mind. "The Unity cleanses humanity of individuality.").

Lesser Seals (the rest of the Exarchs): The Chancellor (Matter, everything has a price), The Nemesis (Division of the worlds of Shadow and Flesh, hide the Shadow from man and suppress the shamanistic and traditional ways of placating them), The Psychopomp ("Bars the way to heaven with a sword and will only let the greatest Seers enter."), The Prophet ("Time is propelled by the actions of the elect upon the masses. The ideal Seer is a "Great Man" who drives history towards an inevitable triumph; Sleepers must follow lock step or be crushed beneath the tide."), The Raptor (Life, there is no free will, all is predator and prey, rot and renewal, and all are helpless to choose how they flow along the world's life cycle.), The Ruin (Fate, the Entropy that destroys dreams, relationships, and civilization alike. Ruin ensures that people are skeptical and cynical about the opportunities ahead of them.).