Remove ads

White Wolf's World of Darkness

Reader mode
Talkkno said:
Fair enough Well I guess my final question; how viable is the plan Silver Ladder to overthrow the Exarchs seen in setting? Is it treated as an actual viable plan of action or pie in the sky "well when we'll get there we'll get there" sort of thing?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
For the average mage it's something that can be conceived of in theory but there's no immediate plan of action other than growing mage society and sticking it to the Exarchs whenever possible. For those at the very top of mage society who know about the Imperial Masters (archmages), and their ascension war, victory seems a hell of a lot more obtainable.
 
Last edited:
cmwatford said:
For the average mage it's something that can be conceived of in theory but there's no immediate plan of action other than growing mage society and sticking it to the Exarchs whenever possible. For those at the very top of mage society who know about the Imperial Masters (archmages), and their ascension war, victory seems a hell of a lot more obtainable.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm curious then, on the other side of the coin, what stops the Seers from pulling out the magic wmds and just wiping them out? Or to phrase it another way; why do the Exarchs for the world to continue as it is? Do they even need the sleepers at all?
 
Talkkno said:
I'm curious then, on the other side of the coin, what stops the Seers from pulling out the magic wmds and just wiping them out? Or to phrase it another way; why do the Exarchs for the world to continue as it is? Do they even need the sleepers at all?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Whatever their origins the Exarchs are symbols of tyranny now. Tyranny is nothing without subjects so they need the sleepers. One of the Seers key commands is "Protect Humanity". Said Seers are also not that supported by their god-kings. Indeed the Orders are way more long-lived than any of the Seers' factions.
 
Talkkno said:
I'm curious then, on the other side of the coin, what stops the Seers from pulling out the magic wmds and just wiping them out? Or to phrase it another way; why do the Exarchs for the world to continue as it is? Do they even need the sleepers at all?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Two main reasons. The simplest one is that tyrants need subjects. The other is that the Exarchs are hampered in direct efforts by the abyss like any other being relying on supernal power. The mage dev has gone on record that should the abyss dissapear while the Exarchs still reign then the boot on man's throat will become a lot less metaphorical.
 
The Exarchs need humanity to a) exist and b) be miserable. The Seers are directed to upset progress toward some enlightened state, but they're *also* directed to squash existential threats.
 
cmwatford said:
Two main reasons. The simplest one is that tyrants need subjects. The other is that the Exarchs are hampered in direct efforts by the abyss like any other being relying on supernal power. The mage dev has gone on record that should the abyss dissapear while the Exarchs still reign then the boot on man's throat will become a lot less metaphorical.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

People in this thread have also mentioned that the support of the Exarchs mostly boils down to cryptic visions.
 
The Support of the Exarchs is not really the cryptic visions - those are the *missions* Seers get, not the rewards. The Seers enjoy a level of magical support the Pentacle can only dream of, as the Exarchs themselves seed Artifacts and such for them to use, and their archmasters aren't barred from assisting them.

Most of the toys get hoarded by senior-ranking Seers, but the basics - the Seer Order Merit gives them the only reliable access to *friendly* Supernal entities in the game, their Status adds to Resources for requisitioning mundane equipment and services as well as the magical resources everyone else gets, they have Servitors on top of the Sleepwalkers and Proximi the other Orders have - are in the corebook. Signs of Sorcery's more detailed Order Status Requisition rules are detailed enough for the difference to appear below the abstraction layer of the rules - Artifacts and Imbued Items are lower Availability for Seers.

Signs also has the 2nd ed rules for Ochemata, the avatar forms of the Exarchs, for when they decide to give themselves hands in order to then get those hands dirty.
 
davebrookshaw said:
The Support of the Exarchs is not really the cryptic visions - those are the *missions* Seers get, not the rewards. The Seers enjoy a level of magical support the Pentacle can only dream of, as the Exarchs themselves seed Artifacts and such for them to use, and their archmasters aren't barred from assisting them.

Most of the toys get hoarded by senior-ranking Seers, but the basics - the Seer Order Merit gives them the only reliable access to *friendly* Supernal entities in the game, their Status adds to Resources for requisitioning mundane equipment and services as well as the magical resources everyone else gets, they have Servitors on top of the Sleepwalkers and Proximi the other Orders have - are in the corebook. Signs of Sorcery's more detailed Order Status Requisition rules are detailed enough for the difference to appear below the abstraction layer of the rules - Artifacts and Imbued Items are lower Availability for Seers.

Signs also has the 2nd ed rules for Ochemata, the avatar forms of the Exarchs, for when they decide to give themselves hands in order to then get those hands dirty.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

So you're tilting things towards the second interpretation of the 1e Seer book?

One of the things the Seers of the Throne Order Book basically said was that in some ways it was splitting the difference/equivocating on how powerful the Seers were. Not that any interpretation of them was weak, and I'd have to search the book for the exact line, but that they were being intentionally made so that you could either interpret them in the Matrix/Illumanti "Runs everything" sense, or in the, "Reach bigger than their grasp, taking credit for trends they don't actually control in any way, when they're not busy stabbing themselves in the back, yet still dangerous and powerful, just not as much as in example one."

Rules like that seem like the 2e interpretation is aiming towards the former, at least in how you're describing them?
 
Last edited:
My understanding of the Exarchs is that in-universe, nobody's sure what's going on with them. Everyone has theories, but none of them can be proven with any effectiveness.

Maybe the Exarchs paid for stealing the gods' thrones, and became inhuman creatures that exist as living embodiments of their own sins and failings[1]​.

Maybe the Exarchs' war for the heavens is still ongoing, and they're too busy holding off the old gods to properly solidify their control over the Fallen World.

Maybe the Abyss has sealed them away from the ruins of their birthplace, and they've largely ceased caring about it save for ensuring its inhabitants don't rise against them.

Maybe they're all dead.

The only thing that seems probable is that they aren't actively and regularly interfering with the Fallen World in the way you might expect unstoppable god-wizards to do.



[1]​ Or, to translate into Ascension terms, they suffered something equivalent to prolonged Umbra exposure, and degenerated from Mages into blind idiot gods that no longer have the puissance and brilliance that let them seize their celestial thrones, existing as spirit reflections of their original selves.
 
GardenerBriareus said:
My understanding of the Exarchs is that in-universe, nobody's sure what's going on with them. Everyone has theories, but none of them can be proven with any effectiveness.

Maybe the Exarchs paid for stealing the gods' thrones, and became inhuman creatures that exist as living embodiments of their own sins and failings[1]​.

Maybe the Exarchs' war for the heavens is still ongoing, and they're too busy holding off the old gods to properly solidify their control over the Fallen World.

Maybe the Abyss has sealed them away from the ruins of their birthplace, and they've largely ceased caring about it save for ensuring its inhabitants don't rise against them.

Maybe they're all dead.

The only thing that seems probable is that they aren't actively and regularly interfering with the Fallen World in the way you might expect unstoppable god-wizards to do.



[1]​ Or, to translate into Ascension terms, they suffered something equivalent to prolonged Umbra exposure, and degenerated from Mages into blind idiot gods that no longer have the puissance and brilliance that let them seize their celestial thrones, existing as spirit reflections of their original selves.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

There was some of that early on, but the Seers of the Throne book definitively came down on a certain subset of the possibilities, and 2e is following in that wake, just like it is in a lot of the shifts of mood and tone that happened as Mage: The Awakening 1e aged.

Like how in the core-book for 1e, Goetic Summoning was treated like Abyssal Summoning in some ways, in terms of how dangerous and distrusted it is, while by the time of 2e, after Summoners and Astral Realm/etc came out, it's treated more normally by the text.

This is the result of an evolutionary process that's pretty inevitable. A gameline can't stay the same.

Edit: You can see this process in the books, honestly. Between the pre-and-post Astral Realms books on what 2e would call Goetia.
 
Last edited:
The Laurent said:
So you're tilting things towards the second interpretation of the 1e Seer book?

One of the things the Seers of the Throne Order Book basically said was that in some ways it was splitting the difference/equivocating on how powerful the Seers were. Not that any interpretation of them was weak, and I'd have to search the book for the exact line, but that they were being intentionally made so that you could either interpret them in the Matrix/Illumanti "Runs everything" sense, or in the, "Reach bigger than their grasp, taking credit for trends they don't actually control in any way, when they're not busy stabbing themselves in the back, yet still dangerous and powerful, just not as much as in example one."

Rules like that seem like the 2e interpretation is aiming towards the former, at least in how you're describing them?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I prefer "the Seers don't rule the world; they don't have to." It's not some cWoD-style Technocracy where they have the President on speed dial; the Exarchs give Seers missions that gradually increase the amount of fuckery in the world and ensure no one effective ever becomes President. What the Exarchs demand Seers do is often nonsensical to the point of view of the Seer - why kill this one specific baby? Because the General goddamn told you to, and you will probably never find out why.

And their comparatively large arsenal is the in-setting reason why the Seers survive against the Diamond, Free Council, and Tremere's hostility, despite all their infighting (which is, let's not forget, often directly caused by the Exarchs giving them mutually-exclusive orders, even before the natural tendency of Seers to be backstabbing shitbirds)

They punch above their weight, but they hit themselves a lot.

GardenerBriareus said:
My understanding of the Exarchs is that in-universe, nobody's sure what's going on with them. Everyone has theories, but none of them can be proven with any effectiveness.

Maybe the Exarchs paid for stealing the gods' thrones, and became inhuman creatures that exist as living embodiments of their own sins and failings[1]​.

Maybe the Exarchs' war for the heavens is still ongoing, and they're too busy holding off the old gods to properly solidify their control over the Fallen World.

Maybe the Abyss has sealed them away from the ruins of their birthplace, and they've largely ceased caring about it save for ensuring its inhabitants don't rise against them.

Maybe they're all dead.

The only thing that seems probable is that they aren't actively and regularly interfering with the Fallen World in the way you might expect unstoppable god-wizards to do.

[1]​ Or, to translate into Ascension terms, they suffered something equivalent to prolonged Umbra exposure, and degenerated from Mages into blind idiot gods that no longer have the puissance and brilliance that let them seize their celestial thrones, existing as spirit reflections of their original selves.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Nah. The Exarchs definitely exist, and are actively involved in the Fallen World. Ask any Supernal Entity if the Thrones exist. Deny an Ochema to its face. They're in the unseen Supernal Realm beyond the Supernal World mages can see in their Sight, and they shout their Commands into the brains of Seers.

What's completely NOT set in stone is the notion that they are Ascended mages from the Time Before. The Seers believe so, because that's their basis for believing the best of them (or most successful, anyway) will be allowed to Ascend and join them. The Diamond *mostly* think so because, hey, if the Exarchs could take over the universe then so could they.

The early books in first edition Awakening played a weird dance of introducing setting elements then mumbling "unless, you know, you don't like that," like they were nervous readers were still hung up on cMage. Awakening improved when it grew the confidence to stop that.
 
But as powerful as he is, Tychoides isn't God.

EDIT: Hmmm. But this answer, flip as it is, does commit the error I get annoyed at sometimes - conflating the Seers and the Exarchs.

Then again, Tychoides isn't on par with a full-blown Tetrarch either, so it still stands.

For the uninitiated, Tychoides is the Technocrat archmage who runs the Void Engineers. Or rather, he's the Order of Reason Archmage who runs the Void Engineer Technocrats. And that break in their organization - that the Umbra-dwelling People In Charge have to hide what they are from their followers, because their followers carefully-curated paradigms don't allow for them - is one thing the Seers definitely have over the Technocracy. Your Seers footsoldier is not in denial over who his boss is, even if you restrict that boss to "The Minister of Praetorian" rather than "The General"
 
Last edited:
Awakening's Archmages are hilariously bullshit powerful so any kind of contest between them has to ignore the Elder stuff.

In terms of relative power, the Technocracy pre-Ravnos basically won outright so they're at the top. Post-Ravnos, I'd still give it to the Technocracy since they're less prone to reflexive backstabbing and can at least pretend to be working together most of the time. Plus, they've still got a substantial advantage over the Traditions.
 
runeblue360 said:
Awakening's Archmages are hilariously bullshit powerful so any kind of contest between them has to ignore the Elder stuff.

In terms of relative power, the Technocracy pre-Ravnos basically won outright so they're at the top. Post-Ravnos, I'd still give it to the Technocracy since they're less prone to reflexive backstabbing and can at least pretend to be working together most of the time. Plus, they've still got a substantial advantage over the Traditions.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm not sure about that; it seems that the Exarchs and the Seers more or less have trapped the world in the grand illusion, while the Technocracy despite all its power; even the sleepers acting their own can cause major problems for it; like how canonically; Hilter was a sleeper.
 
Last edited:
Talkkno said:
I'm not sure about that; it seems that the Exarchs and the Seers more or less have trapped the world in the grand illusion, while the Technocracy despite all its power; even the sleepers can cause major problems for it; like how canonically; Hilter was a sleeper.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

When I said relative power, I meant that in the sense of their power relative to their opposition.
 
runeblue360 said:
When I said relative power, I meant that in the sense of their power relative to their opposition.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah but if random sleepers can act and cause major upheavals in face of Technocractic opposition; it doesn't exactly indicate Technocracy as hegemonic a power it is over its enemies relative to the Exarchs, given the massive disparities of the capabilities of awakened and a sleeper.
 
Talkkno said:
Yeah but if random sleepers can act and cause major upheavals in face of Technocractic opposition; it doesn't exactly indicate Technocracy as hegemonic a power it is over its enemies relative to the Exarchs, given the massive disparities of the capabilities of awakened and a sleeper.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Not really? Sure, Hitler was a Sleeper but if he didn't have backing from Technocratic splinters, he'd have never actually become an issue.
 
This seems like the kind of debate that is likely to devolve into two bearded hobos screaming "EVERYTHING IS TRUE, NOTHING IS PERMITTED" while shanking each other in an alley before one of them attempts to cast a spell, explodes because a random sleeper looked at him, which causes the other hobo to be slammed into the wall by proxy and break three ribs.

(Really it seems like a very stupid versus debate and measuring their power relative to each other is silly; the Technocratic Union have no less 'trapped everyone in a grand illusion'; the entire world believes it runs on lightning created from ancient dinosaur bones, which lets them make little play-acting figures appear in their plastic screens.)
 
ManusDomine said:
(Really it seems like a very stupid versus debate and measuring their power relative to each other is silly; the Technocratic Union have no less 'trapped everyone in a grand illusion'; the entire world believes it runs on lightning created from ancient dinosaur bones, which lets them make little play-acting figures appear in their plastic screens.)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well I guess the more relevant thing i guess it seems in Awakening a mage is a kind of mystic detective as their main thing they do rather then going all "RAWR RAWR FIGHT THE POWER" all the time.
 
Last edited:
Talkkno said:
Well I guess the more relevant thing i guess it seems in Awakening a mage is a kind of mystic detective as their main thing they do rather then going all "RAWR RAWR FIGHT THE POWER" all the time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's almost like they're different settings with different narrative conceits, themes and ideas about the stories that should be told in them.

Like, they're both gnostic settings as I've discussed at length with @EarthScorpion in the past, but the primary difference lies in the degree of assholery of mages. In Mage: The Ascension, everyone is a hero of their own story, everyone just wants what they think is best but there's too many people who want what's best and there are just too many problems; evil is not born from hate or from greed but the presumption that your own worldview is better than someone else. It's a political metaphor through a gnostic lens; no one knows what's going on except for the grand movers and shakers among the Archmasters who understood long ago that none of it matters and could make the world a better place or ascend beyond but sit around to improve their material power.

Mage: The Awakening by contrast is not like that. In Mage: The Awakening you're a fucking asshole, and so are all your friends, at the end of the day you're more concerned with learning one more mystery, one more piece of knowledge, a hundred little parts to complete your puzzle and learn it all. Archmasters are the people most likely to know the way to ascension and they're standing at the edge of Plato's cave, using their fingers to cast shadows on the walls while their less-enlightened siblings in the Fallen World draw cave drawings. The Orders are political organizations that you can and likely will pay lip service to, when they are not horrible cults like messianic sin-eater assassins or cosmic anarchists and the Nameless War with the Free Council ended because the Silver Ladder 'discovered' that they had legitimacy all along as a descendant of the dissidents of Atlantis, a place that never were and echoes throughout all of reality; a thousand pieces repeated through the mosaic in a billion refractions.
 
ManusDomine said:
Mage: The Awakening by contrast is not like that. In Mage: The Awakening you're a fucking asshole, and so are all your friends, at the end of the day you're more concerned with learning one more mystery, one more piece of knowledge, a hundred little parts to complete your puzzle and learn it all. Archmasters are the people most likely to know the way to ascension and they're standing at the edge of Plato's cave, using their fingers to cast shadows on the walls while their less-enlightened siblings in the Fallen World draw cave drawings. The Orders are political organizations that you can and likely will pay lip service to, when they are not horrible cults like messianic sin-eater assassins or cosmic anarchists and the Nameless War with the Free Council ended because the Silver Ladder 'discovered' that they had legitimacy all along as a descendant of the dissidents of Atlantis, a place that never were and echoes throughout all of reality; a thousand pieces repeated through the mosaic in a billion refractions.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
What's the necessity of the Exarchs and the Seers to this theme? Seems they provide an easy "RAWR RAWR FIGHT THE POWER" that would detract from this since they are just plain straight evil unlike the Technocracy.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top