IA! I have been mistaken with ES.

(The postmodern emperor Nixon thing was me talking about VALIS).

Anyway, Westworld has a lot of gnostic themes*, so of course it feels like nMage.

*(A false world created by an evil god to trap the souls of the people, amirite).
Also, the maze. It's somewhat at odds with how Awakening is usually portrayed*, but I actually like it more.

* Awakening is generally portrayed as a straight shot from ignorance to enlightenment; you either reach the Watchtower and become a Mage, or you fail and stay Asleep forever. There's a few alternate options - accidentally traveling to an Abyssal Watchtower, becoming one of the Mad due to a fuckup along the way, whatever creates Banishers (I can't remember right now beyond the 1e explanation of "some Mages decide to go around killing other Mages for their own reasons"), but the ultimate result is that you either end up some variety of Mage or you don't.

"The maze", in Westworld, is a conceptual existential exercise created by one of the park's founders for the benefit of the hosts - an extended metaphor for the process of moving from a machine that follows its programming to a truly sapient being.

Unlike Awakening, "the maze" is something that can take years or decades to run through, with the host in question potentially dropping out entirely for long stretches before something puts them back on the path. To quote the show: "consciousness isn't a journey upward, but a journey inward; not a pyramid, but a maze. Every choice can bring you closer the center, or send you spiraling to the edges - to madness."

And honestly, that idea sounds more interesting: a version of Mage where you can potentially fail multiple times before truly Awakening, where the journey to your Watchtower can occur over months or years, where you have groups of Awakened trying to keep tabs on people who've had failed Awakenings before because that means they're more likely to succeed - or become one of the Mad - in future, sounds like a neat spin on the standard setup.
 
* Awakening is generally portrayed as a straight shot from ignorance to enlightenment; you either reach the Watchtower and become a Mage, or you fail and stay Asleep forever.

Uh. No. No, it's not. Most Sleepwalkers come from "semi-failed" Awakenings, and quite a good number of Sleepwalkers do go on to Awaken later.

(Also, likewise, sometimes Awakenings can be a very extended process - consider someone in a coma for years, or who every night in their dreams tries to climb an endless tower and eventually either falls or scales to the top)
 
Uh. No. No, it's not. Most Sleepwalkers come from "semi-failed" Awakenings, and quite a good number of Sleepwalkers do go on to Awaken later.

(Also, likewise, sometimes Awakenings can be a very extended process - consider someone in a coma for years, or who every night in their dreams tries to climb an endless tower and eventually either falls or scales to the top)
Wait, what? Every Awakening I've seen a written description of (in 1e, at least) has been a "straight shot". The only exceptions were people who then went Mad from the disruption, such as the guy who spent three hours dead IRL during his astral journey and then came back thinking he was literally the Death Arcana incarnate, or a brief mention of someone becoming a horrifying Mad spirit abomination with Supernal powers because his body was hit by a car during a waking world dream.

Not that I'm complaining, though: giving Sleepwalkers a little more significance sounds like a definite improvement over 1e.
 
Wait, what? Every Awakening I've seen a written description of (in 1e, at least) has been a "straight shot". The only exceptions were people who then went Mad from the disruption, such as the guy who spent three hours dead IRL during his astral journey and then came back thinking he was literally the Death Arcana incarnate, or a brief mention of someone becoming a horrifying Mad spirit abomination with Supernal powers because his body was hit by a car during a waking world dream.

Not that I'm complaining, though: giving Sleepwalkers a little more significance sounds like a definite improvement over 1e.

It's mentioned in 1e as well.

Now, I'm someone who does actually like some of the guidance and direction for Awakenings that 2e provided, but Long-form Awakenings and Sleepwalkers as the Half-Awake have been around for quite a while.
 
Also, the maze. It's somewhat at odds with how Awakening is usually portrayed*, but I actually like it more.

* Awakening is generally portrayed as a straight shot from ignorance to enlightenment; you either reach the Watchtower and become a Mage, or you fail and stay Asleep forever. There's a few alternate options - accidentally traveling to an Abyssal Watchtower, becoming one of the Mad due to a fuckup along the way, whatever creates Banishers (I can't remember right now beyond the 1e explanation of "some Mages decide to go around killing other Mages for their own reasons"), but the ultimate result is that you either end up some variety of Mage or you don't.

"The maze", in Westworld, is a conceptual existential exercise created by one of the park's founders for the benefit of the hosts - an extended metaphor for the process of moving from a machine that follows its programming to a truly sapient being.

Unlike Awakening, "the maze" is something that can take years or decades to run through, with the host in question potentially dropping out entirely for long stretches before something puts them back on the path. To quote the show: "consciousness isn't a journey upward, but a journey inward; not a pyramid, but a maze. Every choice can bring you closer the center, or send you spiraling to the edges - to madness."

And honestly, that idea sounds more interesting: a version of Mage where you can potentially fail multiple times before truly Awakening, where the journey to your Watchtower can occur over months or years, where you have groups of Awakened trying to keep tabs on people who've had failed Awakenings before because that means they're more likely to succeed - or become one of the Mad - in future, sounds like a neat spin on the standard setup.


Westworld actually has more in common with Mage: The Ascension than Mage: The Awakening.

The title of the final episode of the first season is The Bicameral Mind. This term was coined by psychologist Julian Jaynes in his book, The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.

Jaynes had some odd ideas. Like the belief that ancient Greeks were philosophical zombies incapable of conscious thought, which is why ancient Greek plays and poems don't refer to introspection, but instead to gods.

The basic idea behind this theory is that the natural state of the human mind is divided into two parts. You've got the part that actually controls the body, which acts without thinking. It does things without knowing why it does them. Then you've got the part of the mind that does think. That makes decisions, for good or for ill. While the first part of the mind responds to impulses, this part creates them. Pre-conscious people hear it as the voice of God, or gods. They believe it to be a purely external force. Obtaining consciousness is then the process of coming to understand that the voice in your head is your own, that these are your own thoughts and feelings, not angels and demons controlling and compelling you. And this revelation is what allows introspection.

This fits into Dolores's journey, as she learns that the voice she's been hearing, that has been compelling her forward all season, is her own.

If one were to liken it to a version of Mage, it would be closer to connecting to one's own Avatar, than to connecting to the Supernal Realm. It is a purely personal journey that ends with learning that you are your own god, and there is nothing higher than you.
 
If one were to liken it to a version of Mage, it would be closer to connecting to one's own Avatar, than to connecting to the Supernal Realm. It is a purely personal journey that ends with learning that you are your own god, and there is nothing higher than you.
That's actually a good point, although I'm not sure how... healthy having a Paradigm of "I am a god, no other may judge me" would be if you weren't already a rather self-critical person.

I really need to read that copy of M:tAs 2E that I bought a few weeks back; it's just that I have a rather pro-Technocracy perspective on the setting thanks to this site and it makes the opening chapters almost physically painful to read. Also, the constant "everyone's shit, society is shit, we're raping the Earth and oh won't someone realize how much we suck?" tone simultaneously pushes some very old buttons and reminds of the current world situation - which I'm delving into fiction to try and avoid.
 
That's actually a good point, although I'm not sure how... healthy having a Paradigm of "I am a god, no other may judge me" would be if you weren't already a rather self-critical person.

I really need to read that copy of M:tAs 2E that I bought a few weeks back; it's just that I have a rather pro-Technocracy perspective on the setting thanks to this site and it makes the opening chapters almost physically painful to read. Also, the constant "everyone's shit, society is shit, we're raping the Earth and oh won't someone realize how much we suck?" tone simultaneously pushes some very old buttons and reminds of the current world situation - which I'm delving into fiction to try and avoid.
Perhaps oMage isn't the right game for you then, since its literally a game about philosophy knife fights.
 
Perhaps oMage isn't the right game for you then, since its literally a game about philosophy knife fights.
Except I grew up reading about Norman Borlaug, and knowing that genetic engineering is something mankind has been doing for thousands of years - and reading about nuclear power, and coming to see it as a perfectly valid form of energy if it weren't for this baffling habit we all seemed to have about only using it begrudgingly and fobbing off any responsibility for it onto the nearest scapegoat, and then...

And then I found out that the people who spent decades demonizing nuclear energy to the point where we'd rather choke the Earth to death than do the smart thing because of imaginary bullshit bogeymen, the people who'd turned "genetically modified organism" into something so scary companies were scrambling to purge it from their products?

They were, in all too many cases, the same people who considered themselves the face of the conservationist cause, the people who routinely invoked images of strip mines and "raw sewage spewing into the sea" and acid rain in their propaganda, who were, even as I grew up, starting to melt together with the people who sell people useless "supplements" and tell them it's the panacea and the antivax crowd.

So when I open the book and immediately have that same Captain Planet propaganda being spewed in my face? Not a good first impression.

Then we move onto the more serious issue. I am not a terribly positive person. By which I mean I've been in therapy for depression since late elementary school. Losing the healthcare which used to cover the bills for those sessions has not helped. Nor has the election of a walking caricature to the Oval Office, or the subsequent revelations of what a rancid, disgusting, pestilent place this world is, and has always been. I have lost my ignorance of what America truly is, and so I must forcibly recreate it however I can, or else I'll just spiral downwards into total misanthropic nihilism. Fiction is my opiate from a world I can neither change nor accept.

Hearing the corebook's narrator smugly jeer to his apprentice about the vileness of modern society, how everyone is either a scared animal huddled in its den or a gluttonous monster eagerly destroying the lives of their lessers to pad their bank accounts? That completely obliterates my efforts to rekindle some semblance of optimism and faith in the universe, and then I either check out immediately or try to keep going and spend the next few hours feeling sick and broken, with a possible chaser of brief boiling hatred for humanity and the universe in general.

I think it's partially what @EarthScorpion once pointed out - oMage is a product of the 90s. Its narrative of brave outsiders standing up to society and the Man, refusing to accept conventional wisdom and seeking bold new solutions to the problems of the day... it rings painfully false to people coming back to read it in 2017, because now we know how that worked out. All those cool young hackers sold out and became Google, faithful steed of the corporate elder statesmen. The revival meetings are now either perverse exercises in greed-as-religion or a cheap suit for the new Nazism to put on as it pleases. Speaking of which, turns out that those "bold new ideas" generally either fizzled, self-destructed, or turned into festering cancerous sores in the ever more tattered fabric of human civilization. Those people fighting back against Big Pharma went to Third World countries and promptly started getting people killed by making them distrust all foreign medical science, or stayed home, built little closed-off communities of supporters within the Internet, and quietly disconnected from the rest of reality.

There is no belief, no philosophy, no political or social or cultural movement in this world that has escaped the putrefying gaze of hindsight. A book constantly trying to sell its narrative with rhetoric pulled straight from the most recent victims' lips doesn't have much chance of making a better impression.
 
There is no belief, no philosophy, no political or social or cultural movement in this world that has escaped the putrefying gaze of hindsight. A book constantly trying to sell its narrative with rhetoric pulled straight from the most recent victims' lips doesn't have much chance of making a better impression.
I don't really get how this is a response to what i said? I'm not sure why you are surprised why a core book for a game about the titular mages might not exactly positively inclined toward the Technocracy. Like it sounds like you might be interested in the Guide to the Technocracy, which is fine. I mean WW's writing has always been very smug and self assured; I can see why its turnoff on how they really like to turn the edge as you've mentioned.
 
Just pick up Werewolf and play a Pentex exc. Sure, you'd be a Captain Planet villain, but you could at least have fun being a Captain Planet villain. Like Hoggish Greedly, who chops down ancient redwoods and shaves them down to make a single toothpick per tree.
 
I always thought Looten Plunder was the most coolof the Captain Planet villains...and you get to go "You'll pay for this, Captain Garou!"
 
Hmm, Dresden is held up as the iconic low wisdom good guy mage (obrimos?). Having recently got back into Dresden Files I can't help but wonder how things would change for Dresden should he actually awaken. For arguments sake lets say he awakens five months before the events of "Storm Front" as an Obrimos. Assuming the wardens don't gut him purely on suspicion how would things change?
 
I think it's partially what @EarthScorpion once pointed out - oMage is a product of the 90s. Its narrative of brave outsiders standing up to society and the Man, refusing to accept conventional wisdom and seeking bold new solutions to the problems of the day... it rings painfully false to people coming back to read it in 2017, because now we know how that worked out. All those cool young hackers sold out and became Google, faithful steed of the corporate elder statesmen. The revival meetings are now either perverse exercises in greed-as-religion or a cheap suit for the new Nazism to put on as it pleases. Speaking of which, turns out that those "bold new ideas" generally either fizzled, self-destructed, or turned into festering cancerous sores in the ever more tattered fabric of human civilization. Those people fighting back against Big Pharma went to Third World countries and promptly started getting people killed by making them distrust all foreign medical science, or stayed home, built little closed-off communities of supporters within the Internet, and quietly disconnected from the rest of reality.

There is no belief, no philosophy, no political or social or cultural movement in this world that has escaped the putrefying gaze of hindsight. A book constantly trying to sell its narrative with rhetoric pulled straight from the most recent victims' lips doesn't have much chance of making a better impression.
@GardenerBriareus I don't think you're coming into Mage with the wrong attitude. Mage, being from the 90's, is fundamentally 'Punk' (as others have pointed out). The mages of today are likely very much like you, having grown up in this modern world and seen it's benefits. Some of the later era traditionbooks show an attitude among the youth of rejecting some of the older ways and forging their own path. The Dreamspeakser book, for example, had more modern Dreamspeakers learning the ways of newer spirits of cities and urban locals. The previous Dreamspeakers had turned their noses up at these spirits and retreated into the woods and old familiar nature spirits.

I think now is a time to question the old ways as mages have for generation after generation. The old mages who harkened back to an idealized yet archaic past were lost in the Avatar Storm. Yet as new people have risen to power in the wake of the Avatar Storm, we have new problems. Mages having sold out to the forces they once opposed. The protectors of the technocracy being corrupted by those in power they are surrounded by. There is a new Establishment and there is a new 'The Man' to fight against. The war has changed. Mages must, in true Post-Modernist fashion re-examine what they once held as inviolable. The past is not as great as the old men once proclaimed. What can we salvage from the ways we have always done things and what needs to be changed? These are questions for a new generation of mages to sort out. How does the Technocracy handle what the Establishment has become? How do the mages handle what has happened in their own camps? How can we integrate new ideas with older traditions?

Things have gone wrong. The world is not in order. You are a mage, one who warps reality with their beliefs. What are you going to do about it? The struggle may be hard-fought, but the rewards are worth the effort. As Wonder Woman realized the world is deeply flawed. We are deeply flawed. Yet we and the world we live in is still worth fighting for. We can't simply deconstruct the world we live in. We must also build the world we wish to live in.


Edit: you should probably skip past all of the intro text and really only use the part of the book that talks about what the spheres do at each level. That way you can substitute their interpretation for your own.
 
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Has anyone done anything with New Paths/Watchtowers in Awakening?
Sixth Watchtower type of stuff.

Well, I could imagine, though it'd be very back-loaded in terms of what it could do, a Space-Time Path.

@GardenerBriareus I don't think you're coming into Mage with the wrong attitude. Mage, being from the 90's, is fundamentally 'Punk' (as others have pointed out). The mages of today are likely very much like you, having grown up in this modern world and seen it's benefits. Some of the later era traditionbooks show an attitude among the youth of rejecting some of the older ways and forging their own path. The Dreamspeakser book, for example, had more modern Dreamspeakers learning the ways of newer spirits of cities and urban locals. The previous Dreamspeakers had turned their noses up at these spirits and retreated into the woods and old familiar nature spirits.

I think now is a time to question the old ways as mages have for generation after generation. The old mages who harkened back to an idealized yet archaic past were lost in the Avatar Storm. Yet as new people have risen to power in the wake of the Avatar Storm, we have new problems. Mages having sold out to the forces they once opposed. The protectors of the technocracy being corrupted by those in power they are surrounded by. There is a new Establishment and there is a new 'The Man' to fight against. The war has changed. Mages must, in true Post-Modernist fashion re-examine what they once held as inviolable. The past is not as great as the old men once proclaimed. What can we salvage from the ways we have always done things and what needs to be changed? These are questions for a new generation of mages to sort out. How does the Technocracy handle what the Establishment has become? How do the mages handle what has happened in their own camps? How can we integrate new ideas with older traditions?

Things have gone wrong. The world is not in order. You are a mage, one who warps reality with their beliefs. What are you going to do about it? The struggle may be hard-fought, but the rewards are worth the effort. As Wonder Woman realized the world is deeply flawed. We are deeply flawed. Yet we and the world we live in is still worth fighting for. We can't simply deconstruct the world we live in. We must also build the world we wish to live in.


Edit: you should probably skip past all of the intro text and really only use the part of the book that talks about what the spheres do at each level. That way you can substitute their interpretation for your own.

Take it to the Ascension thread. :p
 
I recently found a web app for helping make improvised spells in nMage 2e. It includes the effects of rotes, praxies, withstand, spell factor penalties, reach, yantras, and calculates the size of the paradox roll, which should make things a lot easier for people.
 
Though if it's a metaphor for depression, having people dying as the only source of joy for your character is somewhat dark.

True, but do you know what I think would be an even better choice to play as a metaphor for depression?

Playing a Fetch.

I mean think about it, you thought you were real. Guess what, you're not. You're a normal, living thing. You're a fake and a fraud made of twigs and candle wax and old leaves. That hollowness in your heart, that depression you just can't shake? It's because you aren't real. And there's a whole world out there that hates you for what you are, the changelings that resent you, the uncanny things that created you...
 
True, but do you know what I think would be an even better choice to play as a metaphor for depression?

Playing a Fetch.

I mean think about it, you thought you were real. Guess what, you're not. You're a normal, living thing. You're a fake and a fraud made of twigs and candle wax and old leaves. That hollowness in your heart, that depression you just can't shake? It's because you aren't real. And there's a whole world out there that hates you for what you are, the changelings that resent you, the uncanny things that created you...
That's probably too similar to Promethean.
 
That's probably too similar to Promethean.

I dunno, there are also Imposter themes? Because you inhabit a life, but as it turns out, you are in fact a 'theft' of that life. You think you grew up around people you knew, but you didn't. Whereas Prometheans start out inhuman and find humanity as part of a journey, this is someone who always thought they were humanity having the mask ripped away.

And without the empowerment fantasies of the major splats, since while they have a few small tricks, a Fetch is mostly going to be playing a mortal+A supernatural merit or two game.
 
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