So first of all, I am obligated to be angry at you for restarting the argument I had just ended.

Second of all, I don't think you can call "technocracy game" a breach of theme when Guide to the Technocracy is literally right there.

EDIT: Regardless, I will implore you and everyone else to please not have a Revised vs 2e argument; for the sake of everyone, literally nothing will come of it.

Yeah, but like, there's also plenty of supplements that set things up for cool pulp adventurers in the umbra you know? This didn't come out of nowhere.

What I'm pointing out is that the basic thematic of mage are actually pretty broad and will support a number of genres and game types. If you want to run a pulp adventurer, it'll support that. If you want to run a game mostly about espionage and covert action, it'll support that too. If you want to run a game about investigating the magical world, you can do that as a mage.

If you let a set of perceived thematic elements, especially those created by a company as flawed as white wolf in the 1990s, determine the one true way to run a campaign, well, that's just dumb and bad.

The problem is that the quest to be able to put on your robe and wizard hat in peace is also the quest to let the river-goblins kidnap badly-behaved children for dinner.

So any technocrat will surely tell you. We need to murder all the wizards so that threat null/the river goblins/whatever don't eat you. The traditions project of global ascension is actually about resetting the world to the pre-technocracy age of chaos which only partly existed.

In the same way, imperialism is mostly about defending our sea trade and civilizing the natives.

...but a huge facet of the Avatar Storm is "yo everything Off world is super fucked. And guess what 90% of you old masters and high end shit was off world. And is now super fucked."

Like the status quo being radically upset and the Ascension war about to kick into high gear as the Union and Coucil experience internal upheaval and reorganization is one of the main points. :V 'Cause the entrenched upper crust who have been enforcing "the way things are" is just fucking gone and/or a psychotic space ghost.

Was it? Cause my reading of Rev was "the Ascension War is Over, it's all pointless now."
 
Last edited:
Was it? Cause my reading of Rev was "the Ascension War is Over, it's all pointless now."

Literally every Revised Technocracy book has sections on "here's what we lost in the Avatar storm, here's how it's affected us culturally/politically, here's what we're doing now." The Progenitors have developed a much more militant, interventionist wing that's in direct conflict with the establishment, the NWO is barely holding shit together in the face of increasing Syndic tension and deeper philosophical divisions, and there's a persistent "there might be an all out Union civil war over the path forward now that CONTROL is gone" thing.

So, uh, I kinda have to question how much you actually did read if that's what you pulled from it?
 
Yeah, but like, there's also plenty of supplements that set things up for cool pulp adventurers in the umbra you know? This didn't come out of nowhere.
Yeah but I never argued for that; in fact, you would find me arguing quite the opposite right above you, I distinctly remember criticizing @ChineseDrone for literally saying that someone was playing their game wrong; in fact, you will also find that he apologized for this, literally right above you again. Like I understand what you're saying, and there are indeed cool pulp adventures in the umbra, but I never argued that there wasn't; I'm not against you because I disagree (I do, but that's besides the point), I'm against you because the argument that's going to start now is a cancer that will eat the thread for the rest of the week if not more, provide dozens of reports, make no one happy and reach no conclusion.

I know this, because this happned before several times.

Was it? Cause my reading of Rev was "the Ascension War is Over, it's all pointless now."
It's almost like the game about belief shaping reality is open to interpretation or something.

(like, literally both your readings are equally valid here, which is rather poignant and amusing, I guess. :V)
 
Literally every Revised Technocracy book has sections on "here's what we lost in the Avatar storm, here's how it's affected us culturally/politically, here's what we're doing now." The Progenitors have developed a much more militant, interventionist wing that's in direct conflict with the establishment, the NWO is barely holding shit together in the face of increasing Syndic tension and deeper philosophical divisions, and there's a persistent "there might be an all out Union civil war over the path forward now that CONTROL is gone" thing.

So, uh, I kinda have to question how much you actually did read if that's what you pulled from it?

Those were written like, a decade like the original revised book IIRC, to continue the game line after it would, in the original cannon, have blown up.
 
I'd try to lighten the mood by convincing people to homebrew spell ideas for nMage 2e or something, but a lot of people here don't like nMage 2e.

So, uh?

Anyone got homebrew ideas for Changeling Contracts?
 
Convention book: Iteration X was written in 2002 and the other Convention books follow the trend sat in that one.

To some extent, yes, but they were also very much their own entities. ItX is the one that, IMHO, has the least going on. The upcoming technocracy civil war, and threat null, which are the biggest parts that aren't status quo, were introduced in the later three books.

I'd try to lighten the mood by convincing people to homebrew spell ideas for nMage 2e or something, but a lot of people here don't like nMage 2e.

So, uh?

Anyone got homebrew ideas for Changeling Contracts?

For what mage of what tradition?
 
To some extent, yes, but they were also very much their own entities. ItX is the one that, IMHO, has the least going on. The upcoming technocracy civil war, and threat null, which are the biggest parts that aren't status quo, were introduced in the later three books.



For what mage of what tradition?

I did say nMage, actually.

But if you wanna do oMage Homebrew, then... how about some religious stuff? Can't remember the name of it right off the bat because I'm not really an oMage person.

******

If I really wanted to start an argument, I'd talk about how the theme of 'beliefs' is actually explored surprisingly well (give WW a handicap, of course) in nMage, despite it not even being a main theme.
 
...but a huge facet of the Avatar Storm is "yo everything Off world is super fucked. And guess what 90% of you old masters and high end shit was off world. And is now super fucked."

Like the status quo being radically upset and the Ascension war about to kick into high gear as the Union and Coucil experience internal upheaval and reorganization is one of the main points. :V 'Cause the entrenched upper crust who have been enforcing "the way things are" is just fucking gone and/or a psychotic space ghost.
I misremembered a big chunk of what happened with Threat Null, then.

My recollection was that it originated in oMage's version of the Temenos, which was a perennial problem for the Technocracy given the Traditions Mages who liked to use it as a way to try and run around the Consensus by taking things that exist in mankind's dreams & histories (the Holy Grail, MLK as we remember him, Avalon) and using Dimensional Science+Prime+other Spheres to pull them through into 'reality'. Unfortunately, what nobody really ever dealt with was the reflection of the Technocracy present in there: the mind-shadows of the Traditions tended to get interacted with a lot by actual Traditions Mages, since they could pull shit like "let's drag the shadows of golems and shit out for last-ditch defenses" or "let's hide out in Wonderland" and the like. Which meant those mind-shadows got to have fresh perspective and layers of conceptual nuance added to them by being interacted with, so those parts of the deep collective unconscious got to be almost (but not entirely) like what the Traditions want "the real world" to be, complete with inhabitants that are almost (but not entirely) indistinguishable from humans (unless they're big dumb ogres or dragons or whatever).

Meanwhile, the Technocratic Union's reflection wasn't getting much attention from the actual Technocracy, because they were busy doing other things, meaning that their mind-shadow's nature came to be defined more and more by what the Traditions thought of them than anything else. Given that the Traditions aren't well-disposed toward their opposition, this gradually twisted the shadow-Technocracy into an insane methed-up caricature of the real thing - which also was getting stronger and stronger as the Traditions' fears inflated the Union-shadow into a world-conquering army of supervillains.

Eventually, the Technocrats received transmissions addressing them as "the border offices" and instructing them to prepare for the arrival of their superiors to "resume control" of the real world, and Threat Null started ripping the shit out of the rest of mankind's unconscious on their way to shitstomp Earth.

Cue a lot of the Traditions' strongholds being ground up in the dark machines of Threat Null, their remaining outposts getting a hell of a lot grimmer, and the Void Engineers being pushed from intrepid explorers of the unknown to Space Marines holding back the tide of Chaos.

How wrong am I?
 
To what level does Consensus extend? Does basic logic work according to Consensus? That is to say, could a set of axioms and logic imply different things based on what people believed?
 
Last edited:
Mage, at least, up until revised, was most of all a game about having found the system is bad and wants to kill you, and trying to defeat it and build a better world, both globally (defeat the technocracy) and personally (gain ascension). Because it was the 1990s and white wolf, it often did this quite poorly and problematically, but pulpy adventurers in endless wonder are a completely valid thing to do in a mage game. They're the parts where you contact what the world could be, and what the system has denied to you, out past the horizon. The fact of realms of magic out there is an essential part of mage because it shows that your quest is not utterly hopeless, and it shows the benefits that the technocracy is keeping from you in the name of "safety".

Also, on the other side of things, stuff beyond the horizon can absolutely be about dealing with the negative consequences of your own tradition. The important part of the existence of the horizon realms is that they provide areas in which their own faction and rules of reality are in control, and thus let your players interact with that. Like, you're never going to end up joining the fairyland international brigade to fight off etherite colonialism if everything outside the horizon is ruin and threat null.

The Avatar Storm really did cripple a lot of what was fun about mage in order to make it fit in with the WoD metaplot, because in Rev, the idea was that no, you couldn't change the system, there's never going to be anything better than this on a global scale all you could do is personally ascend, which removed like, half of the drama of old mage. It also, despite what you're saying, makes it much harder to talk about how the old stories are lies, because you never get to interact with areas where those older stories still have their power.

Edit: I'm not trying to talk down panopticon quest here, but given the most popular MtA thing on this board is like, a huge technocracy game, I think the door to perversion of the game's themes has long been opened, and you know what, that's fine. People should play games they enjoy.

I should note that I'm not trying to start a 2e/Revised edition war here and am not discounting the validity of high-flying Umbral stories, my point is that those stories should exist in the context of a wider punk theme about fighting the Man that is the Technocracy and your own masters. What Paulie was suggesting was essentially throwing that part out and focusing only on those high-flying Umbral stories in a traditional wacky pulp adventure story, which isn't what 2e's Umbra was meant to do either, and which is a reflection of the worst writing in 2e's line which, I understand, even the 2e people generally didn't appreciate all that much.
 

Less than you think, honestly it's actually a lot simpler than that (which is probably the only time that could ever ever be said about oMage lol). Without Prime energy you eventually adapt to the Void and become a spirit creature based around your personal puissance/goals/strongest desires and like other spirits you're heavily influenced by how others perceive(d) you. Powerful men and women become powerful spirits and many of the powerful men and women of both sides were in Horizon realms. It's not a good kind of math.

On top of this you have Conditioning which persists even through the metamorphosis and forces the Threat Null conventions to function together despite being literally insanely opposed, as well as the Computer seizing control within ItX and the Progenitor Administration being in psychic contact with much of their staff when they succumbed. The end result is this collective post-human nightmare that doesn't really even realize how far it's fallen or why almost everybody In the earth side Union seems to have defected from their grand design or become some kind of deviant collaborator.

But not to worry, they're gonna fix that. Just you wait and see.
 
Last edited:
nMage 2nd ed is, as a matter of pure emperical fact, the Best Version of mage. All other interpretations are Seer Lies and/or the result of abyssal incursions.

This established, i'd love to experiment with some homebrew, but give me a legacy or an order or a character concept or something to work with.
 
I should note that I'm not trying to start a 2e/Revised edition war here and am not discounting the validity of high-flying Umbral stories, my point is that those stories should exist in the context of a wider punk theme about fighting the Man that is the Technocracy and your own masters. What Paulie was suggesting was essentially throwing that part out and focusing only on those high-flying Umbral stories in a traditional wacky pulp adventure story, which isn't what 2e's Umbra was meant to do either, and which is a reflection of the worst writing in 2e's line which, I understand, even the 2e people generally didn't appreciate all that much.

I guess my point is that irregardless of wider thematics, I think it's actually fine if you want to do whatever type of game, even if your ST should probably have something deeper going on.

A lot of people actually do kind of like the mage system, hard as it is to believe.

I don't disagree with you that in general umbral adventurers should be about that kind of punk resistance, but I also don't think it's that hard to situate pulp adventurers within that if you want too. Pulp is more a tone than a genre. If you want to have relatively daring exploits against Technocratic minions or the like, that's totally fine.

Like, for instance, the first Matrix film is pretty pulpy, but would fit well within the thematics of mage.
 
So. Demonic Investments are cool, but like, they imply that there is a specific class of spirits, demons, which are the only sort which grant Investments. This is unfortunate because it takes a shit-ton of play area out. Like, almost every faction should be able to access Investments without consorting with demons. Investments are great, because they're powerful, extract a great price, and if Investments are actually available in an innocent fashion to most Conventions and Traditions, it means that Nephandi can find it easier to hide in plain sight which is even more awesome. And finally, it makes 'demon' a politically loaded term, which is great. A 'demon' to a Chorister might well be a completely valid entity to provide assistance and worship to for a Verbena or Dreamspeaker.

Hermetics and Christian (and Islamic/Judaist? I'm not too sure on those) Choristers should be able to acquire gifts from angels.

The Euthanatos have pantheons of gods who should grant gifts to their followers.

Dreamspeakers and Verbena obviously should be able to deal with nature spirits for REAL ULTIMATE POWER.

The Syndicate might make deals with space aliums.

VAs might consort with the sorts of things on the Digital Web.

Iteration X should be able to get "prototype augmentations" directly from the Computer.

The Void Engineers and Etherites might just Enemy Within-style use orange space tang to fuse you with alien DNA.

Spirit Pacts and Investments

Humans often make deals with the beings of the Umbra. They have for as long as humanity has existed. To have eternal youth, or immense beauty, or superb skill, or the ability to tell the future-these are things the magi can grant, but spirits can give them too. Spirits, after all, are just as much a reflection of mankind as Consensus. And some of them have natures which lend them to making deals with mankind.

The spirit pact is the result. A mage or Sleeper who knows of a spirit summons them and makes a bargain-often fulfilling a goal of the spirit in exchange for power. This pact might be temporary-a pledge to clean up a river or shut down a factory to a nature-spirit in exchange for improved vitality or faster healing, or it might be permanent-Iterators pledge loyalty to the point of death to the Computer, and are rewarded with bleeding-edge augmentation. Choristers uphold the voice of the One in exchange for the assistance of angels. Of course, there are those spirits which are rather savvier with their investments, seeking to gain powerful pawns in their own games. The initial reward for serving them is great, the tasks minor. At the start. The first hit is always free, when dealing with more dangerous entities which seek to bind magi into servitude.

Unfortunately, nobody can agree on the malevolence of certain entities. An Iterator with pretensions of being a cyber-knight might believe that pledging loyalty to the Computer, and a dedication to uphold Its vision of protecting and guiding humanity, in exchange for additional R-grade cybernetic augmentation, is merely showing their loyalty to the Convention and to the ideals of the Singularity. For a Verbena, such an action is just evidence that all Iterators are Infernalists. A Verbena might deal with the Horned God, which a Chorister finds to be outright Neffandery. Spirit Pacts tend to lead to the sort of philosophical arguments between magi which end with one or more of the participants dead like that, and the majority of time spent by arbitrators and mediators in both the Technocracy and Traditions is trying to resolve these conflicts. It doesn't help that some of these spirit-pacted are Nephandic. May spirits don't care whether someone seeks the destruction of the world, as long as their personal goals are achieved.

Not all investments are gained from spirit pacts, though. Both the Void Engineers and Hermetics have been willing to take by force what is not given to them. Void Engineer marines sport Haiden xenografts and Meld-altered DNA, power-hungry Hermetics who face hostile spirits might tear power from their corpus, stealing divine fire from what might once have been gods. Recently, the Progenitors have started doing the same, stripping gene sequences and tissue from xenobiological entities for their Damage Control agents.

One of the advantages of Investments and spirit pacts is that they are easily available for consors and the non-magical. Although spirits are relatively rare, and will only give up their power for good reason, they are still more common than magi, and without the industry of the Technocracy, it is often much easier for a consor to seek superhuman prowess through linear sorcery and spirit Investment rather than enchantment. The Traditions tend to keep such rewards and benefits on a tight leash, and consors loyal enough to be good candidates are generally willing to jump through such hoops.

The people who aren't... generally don't become consors. After all, if they might bargain away part of their very soul to a spirit for no reason, who's to say they won't take a million dollars from the Technocracy to sell you out? And well, it's not particularly expensive to find a fellow mage with Spirit 1 or Entropy 1 to make sure nobody's been cheating.

Investments

Unlike Enhancements, Investments do not increase permanent Paradox and do not incur Paradox when used. However, at the end of any scene where Investments were used in a blatantly impossible manner (which would have garnered Paradox), the character must roll Paradox + Investments. Should the character roll 5 or more successes on that roll, they are immediately ejected into the Umbra.

Investments and Enhancements can stack, although extensive investment in both is rare. Such is often reserved for the most fearsome combatants on all sides. VE ultranauts, Euthanatos demigods, Choristers who have given themselves almost entirely to become vessels of cherubim guardians, Verbena and Dreamspeaker avatars for old gods, House Janissary elites, Nephandic Shaitans-those who invest heavily in both true magical enhancement and spirit investment can easily tear a werewolf apart with their bare hands without slowing and still possess the godlike power of a true mage. Investments are also far more visible than Enhancements. Spirit pacts can be seen in someone's aura via Awareness, detected via Spirit 1 or Entropy 1, and a character with significant amounts of Investment shows obvious inhuman traits which even Sleepers might pick up on, even if they don't know what they mean. They'll, however, understand that the person in question is 'weird.'
 
Last edited:
The words "Daodan Chrysalis" spring to mind for this.

Probably because I am a great big fan of Oni.
 
Giving access to Investments is kind of a thing intended to relate to the prior discussion of the Traditions, which is "why don't the Traditions get cool toys."

They should. You should be able to, as a Chorister or a Hermetic who deals with angels, temporarily letting the angelic form manifest around you so you grow six wings of light, covered in eyes, and a flaming sword. Or maybe your reason for having Investments is different. "Well, my mom was a Hermetic and my dad was a fallen angel, and this is why I'm the size of a Crinos Garou and can punch through a concrete wall." Also by making Investments available to anyone with a proper spirit patron, not just Nephandi and Infernalists, you get the point across that:

1. The Nephandi are basically just another side in the Ascension War, with a legitimate if horrifying philosophy;
2. Infernalism is pathetic and sucks.

The latter might sound like it's just spite, but Infernalists really are, and probably should be, junkies. They found an easy way out, and maybe it's not all their fault, but it's still going to ruin their life and probably ruin others' lives, and you want to simultaneously hate and pity them because they took a hit of something they shouldn't have and now they're fucked. Instead of doing it the right way, and finding a productive method of making a positive deal with a less malevolent entity, (or in the case of like, Iterators and Choristers and Euthanatos, get investments for 'shit you were probably going to do anyways) you decided to try the cosmic crack cocaine and now you and your avatar are hooked.
 
The words "Daodan Chrysalis" spring to mind for this.

Probably because I am a great big fan of Oni.

The Daodan Chrysalis, or Typhon Neuromods, or the R-Grade cyberrig from System Shock 2 are all valid here. Augmentation which is mostly reliable, but has a tinge of weird alien-ness to it.

mj12 i want to stack exoskeleton+exoskeleton+exomuscle+exomuscle

mj12 please tell me this is how it works

Sadly exomuscle and exoskeleton are not available as Investments

However you can get "Devil Body" and transform into a miniature giant death robot

Sure it is an incredibly underwhelming miniature giant death robot unless you invest a lot of points into it

But it is still a miniature giant death robot
 
So I'm thinking that Investments come in three forms, more or less.

You have Boons, which are granted as reward and come with no strings attached. These are generally bargained-for rewards by spirits who have given someone a task, although they might also manifest if you have a little spirit heritage. Boons are the most expensive but well, come with no real strings. This is where your Meld mods, or the "I killed a biomechanical void-powered Haiden supersoldier and now I have integrated his exoskeleton into me like a Guyver unit" come in. Or you know, 'you did a great favor to Hades by silencing the unquiet dead, so he gives you the resilience of the unquiet dead as a reward' come in.

You have Contracts, which are tied to a specific action or geas and are always anchored by one of them. As long as you are not violating your Geas, or are still trying to achieve whatever you made the deal for in good faith, your powers stay. If you violate your geas or turn away from the action, they fade until you atone and reorient yourself on the right path. These are generally the most common form of spirit pact.

Then you have Investments, the third type, which are the most common type for Infernalists, but other spirits use them. These are the cheapest, but are given at the will of the granting party and may always be removed. They can only remove them in person and if you're helpless though (unless you are a moron and let them add riders that waive these conditions [if you are making a deal with a demon you probably are a moron and did exactly that]), so you can, in fact, make a deal with Hell for phenomenal cosmic power (like the ability to RIP AND TEAR) and then when they come to collect and you're angry because of everything they've done to you, you can RIP AND TEAR the demon's guts and then keep the Investments, which now become effectively super-cheap Boons. There is probably a fallen knight somewhere in Hell, known only as the Hellslayer, who once turned to Infernalism to get their dead family back, but after Hell's creative rules-lawyering killed the one who granted him those so-called boons and is now entomed permanently in Hell because everyone there is afraid that killing him will just make him more powerful. This is why hell's best practices are now to provide the riders which let them turn off your Investments remotely and at will (which is probably a pretty sizable discount).
 
nMage 2nd ed is, as a matter of pure emperical fact, the Best Version of mage. All other interpretations are Seer Lies and/or the result of abyssal incursions.

This established, i'd love to experiment with some homebrew, but give me a legacy or an order or a character concept or something to work with.

Hmm. How about something of an addict-socialite who needs some spells to make the party more fun, help her recover from partying, give her little extras, get people into the spirit of partying, etc, etc.

Though of course, some of that can be just regular 2e stuff, like, "I emotionally urge you to be happy" or whatever. Or, "Life means you can get high on your own supply for no cost." But still, that's an idea or something.

Celestial Chorus.

Let me think about that.

I'm not sure how integrated/generic the Chorus is, but what about a Calvinist Mage doing some sort of "Pre-destiny" kind of thing?
 
Last edited:
Back
Top