Which was my point, at least regular raise the dead is nowadays coincidental for technocrats, see the magical defibrillator.
White Wolf's World of Darkness
Which was my point, at least regular raise the dead is nowadays coincidental for technocrats, see the magical defibrillator.
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
Almost certainly. Certain things are not going to be anything but Vulgar because people are always going to think of them as magical. Stuff that would cause outright awe if witnessed, even if everyone believe in the paradigm you are using, should always be Vulgar. Raising the dead certainly qualifies because I can't think of any pre-existing paradigm where that is anything but miraculous.
Maybe in two hundred years when we've reached Eclipse Phase and cortical stacks exist. But I highly doubt oWoD is ever going to reach that point.
If one of the witnesses know there isn't one, then yes. Otherwise, for all they knew, there is a gas main.
I don't think you should punish your players for being retroactively discovered to have been using magic. The fact you created a gas explosion in an area without a gas main is basically going to be a giant red flag to the local Construct showing you used some magic in the area anyway and that's quite enough retroactive punishment for the player being careless with their magic.
So, don't use it when the superintendent or architect is there, or if the residents of the building know there is no gas lines and so on. But if you're in an abandoned warehouse nobody has done a inspection of for years? Sure. Go for it.
Your argument is essentially that if your paradigm is insufficiently secular all your magic should be Vulgar. I think its clear this isn't the intention.
Nor would I. That's why in the post you responded to I explicitly said that if a stage magician was present for a Las Vegas show where you used true magic then you'd be kind of fucked. The difference between coincidental and vulgar should be based on whether you fool all witnesses. If someone present says 'bullshit' than what you just did was vulgar.
Well, I'd accept calling down an angel(or something that looks like an angel) if you are currently in Vatican City, wielding an Reliquary noted for bestowing Divine Providence, and had a lot a very Faithful people with you all praying at the same time for an angel to appear.
edit: Or at least give you some big bonuses to not-getting-blown-up-by-backlash.
edit2: With the right props, appropriate locations, and proper preparation you can make pretty much anything look Coincidental.
It will cost an arm and a leg(maybe literally) but it's possible.
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notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
Mechanically all you need is 100 people who all believe in the same thing in order to alter reality enough to make vulgar spells coincidental. So if you were in the Vatican with one hundred people watching someone who looks like a Catholic priest pray and heal someone, it would be coincidental. However, if even one person doesn't believe, the spell becomes vulgar again.
Which is why you add a bunch of props and pick the right location; to convince everybody there that what is happening should be happening.
I admit, the only oMage book I have read is M20, which you've mentioned as being mechanically flawed. However, it does mention a ruling on HAB/HOO in favor of HAB, saying
Wouldn't that imply that as long as a bystander would believe you really did blow up a gas main, its coincidental even if there wasn't one there? I.e. I shoot at a cluster of pipes in a warehouse . While they just contain steam and cables, an average bystander wouldn't know that none of them were gas pipes, so calling on Gabriel to cause a fireball while doing so would be coincidental. On the other hand, if someone present did know what the pipes were for, the effect would be vulgar as fuck, since I'm creating a fireball out of nothing.
Alternatively, am I mistaking your argument, and you're saying that doing so SHOULD be vulgar-without-witnesses, and what the book states is harmful/detrimental to the gameline?
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
Getting back to your question - in one of the revised edition Mage toolbox books, there's an optional rule for taking out paradox, and instead having magic cause witnessing sleepers to get a little mad like with werewolf caused Delirium. I can't actually suggest it as a good idea, because beyond undermining some of the basic premises of the game, it also undermines some of the basic system balances as well. But it's there if you want it.
HMLOP - the Hypothetical Myopic Lazy Omniscient Perceiver
Yeah, fuck M20. It's one man's very particular paen to a certain subset of 2e (unlike W20 and V20 which are actual legit attempts to make an 'Ultimate edition') and thus as someone who got started with Revised I don't spare it the time of day.
When the person writing it was so "Oh, I'm settling arguments" as to waste all that space on his utterly dreadful "this is why turning a vampire into a lawnchair is a bad idea" spiel which any competent editor should have removed, the fact that he also tried to settle in favour of HAP doesn't actually increase my respect at all.
Especially when the funniest thing - as I see it - is that the more Revised-era viewpoint I favour means you don't need the Technocracy to be as strong. Which is far more gameable. Because the masquerade is far more self-enforcing and the real power lies in the hands of Sleepers, the Technocracy doesn't need to be around every corner, waiting to jump on you. You don't need an omnipresent police state to stop you from changing everything right now, because the real war is the war for the opinions of mankind - and thus you don't have to rely on bullshit conspiracies to justify why it's a hidden magic setting as heavily, which means that your mages actually can use magic more if they're smart about it and get used to hiding their magic in valid explanations.
That fact that it means that mages damn well should use their 1-dot spheres to be infowar gods to find out all the exploitable things in their local environment if they want to play well is only a plus from my PoV. It's lazy to just say "Oh, it was a gas main" when there wasn't one. But luring the HITMark down into the utilities closet you splashed water all over the floor of, so you can introduce it to Mr Electricity... well, that's something I'm much more in favour of. And sure, your nordic Verbena might be calling on Thor to introduce this walking machine to tamed lightning, but since you put the effort in to making an electrocution hazard and then used Thor to shape how the zapping happens, you can get away with it.
Okay, ignoring M20 entirely (as is fit and proper), this is what I consider to be the process of a player deciding to use an effect:
1. The player decides what they mechanically want to do. This is a purely OOC judgement, with no IC logic. What they want to do is not "throw a fireball", what they want to do is "inflict damage on the enemy".
2. The player checks their spheres and sees if they can do what they want to do. Again - and this is a big divergence from certain modes of play - this is also entirely OOC. Unless you are a Hermetic, the spheres are a purely OOC concept. The spheres are mechanics, not an in game thing, used to basically balance things and let the GM arbitrate things without turning it into a slapfight. The fact that they resemble the Hermetic paradigm spheres is an unfortunate thing, but unless you're a Hermetic, your character shouldn't be thinking in terms of spheres.
3. You devise your paradigmic explanation for what you're doing. Without a paradigmic explanation, you can't do it. At all. Because your paradigm is where your power really comes from - your spheres are just an OOC way of setting hard limits on what your paradigm can do. This mode of decision making is therefore flexible about the spheres, as @MJ12 Commando mentioned a while back; variant spheres like Primal Utility, Dimensional Science, the Death sphere I wrote a bit back... they're common, and even when they're not a formal alt-sphere, some people's spheres might have things moved around. Or, like the various Correspondence variants, use a different sympathy relationship.
So you need an explanation for what you're doing. Your Chorister (or your Hermetic, because Hermeticism has a loooooooong history of this kind of thing) invokes angels, your Verbena sheds her blood and calls the sun's warmth down to earth, your Virtual Adept casts (Hostile) hitMark.transferEnergy(Long kilojoules, Object energySource), and your Technocrat simply loads an incendiary round.
From a practical, in-character PoV, these people are all doing completely separate things. The Traditions hold as doctrine that they're all fundamentally the same thing, but it's doctrine - you don't really grasp it until high Arete. Maybe the Hermetic tells the Verbena that they're actually just invoking angels via their crude and inefficient prayer, and the Verbena calls them an arrogant asshole, but they can sort of get into a similar reference frame for a ritual if they want to do one together. And the Verbena can get over the fact that the Hermetic is an arrogant asshole (but I present a tautology).
4. The next step is purely optional, and it's the "How am I hiding what I'm doing to the Consensus?". In the case of some people's paradigms, like most NWO Operatives, they don't actually do this step because their paradigms are so in line with the Consensus that they basically never have to worry about it - and on the occasions they're given non-Consensual foci as Requisitions, their orders to "keep it secret" do the rest. Not everyone else is so fortunate. If you don't feel like hiding it, perhaps because you're a Taftani, then you just skip this step too. And then probably get slapped around the face by Paradox for your pains. And they will be painful.
So, everyone else has to find a way to find a near-Consensual justification for what they're doing, which will hide their stage 3 explanation. This is not replacing their Stage 3 explanation. And this means they have to play in the Consensus' ballpit and meet it half way. When the Chorister invokes the angel Gabriel to make a fireball, they look for an explanation. And oh, look, there's a gas main here. Okay, Consensus - they metaphorically say - how about the angel Gabriel only makes a small spark, and then that sets off the gas main and that explodes. That's not a very big change, eh, Consensus? You can basically ignore the angel being involved, since most of the explosion was the exploding gas. Maybe an angel set it off. Or maybe the fact that there's a killer death robot shooting bullets all over the place set it off. Who can say for sure, eh? And then the Consensus nods thoughtfully, and says they'll buy that. And there's a gas mains explosion and the HITMark is consumed in a fireball and the Chorister doesn't take any Paradox. If people are watching and get suspicious, it might be pushed to being improbable.
Now, the problem arises when there isn't actually a gas mains. Because when there isn't a gas mains, an explosion is still manifesting from raw angelic fury, without any explosive gas actually being present. This is a small hiccup, because it means they haven't actually cloaked their magic in a Consensual justification and have in fact just smote the unrighteous. And while this is a righteous thing to do, sadly the Consensus isn't prepared to cut them a break just based on the righteousness of their cause. If they'd thought ahead, they could have brought a pipe bomb with them, and wrapped it in handwritten prayers so it is imbued with the holy fury of Gabriel and brings his vengeance (what they are doing - channelling the force of the angel; what they are selling the Consensus on - look, a really exploding pipe bomb), but alas, no pipe bombs. Well, maybe they can invoke him to unleash the terrible energies trapped in the HITMark's plasma gun, making it blow up due to a magnetic coil fluctuation which releases the energy...
Etc, etc. I think my point stands. Where I separate from the most lax versions of HAP which M20 and a lot of 2e stuff prefers is that your Consensual explanation has to be valid. If you could have had the gun in your pocket all along, you better not have been patted down and a Sleeper collapsed your "maybe I had a gun in my pocket" field. If you justify the explosion with a gas mains explosion, there actually better have been a gas mains running through the wall. If your blows are actually being guided by your hungry man-eating blade, but you tell people "Oh, I do kendo and know how to use a blade", then if you don't know how to use a weapon the Consensus will get suspicious (although not as suspicious as it'll get when your sword eats someone, boots and all, and then licks its lips).
(I sometimes call this HMLOP - Hypothetical Myopic Lazy Omniscient Perceiver. He's omniscient, but his vision isn't great if a Sleeper isn't watching directly so he misses smaller details and if he's given an explanation which makes sense, he'll let it pass. It's basically a representation of a smeared-out "Consensus" field made up of the sum of the beliefs of all the Sleepers in the area, saturating the area.)
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
So I kind of feel like the Mind sphere doesn't really work for Iteration X, so I made an alternate sphere based on programming computers. It also works for some Etherites and Virtual Adepts.
Programming
1 dot: At this level the mage can detect programs. While this doesn't sound impressive, it allows the mage to be much more effective at fixing computers. This can be combined with Correspondence or Data 1 to detect programs remotely.
2 dots: The mage can now create programs. This can be used to enhance normal Computer related rolls, to create viruses, or to send impulses to individuals with cybernetic brains. If the mage has a cybernetic implant in their brain, this allows them to increase their multitasking or concentration. The mage can also read the surface thoughts of individuals with cybernetic brains. At this level, the mage can use Programming in place of Spirit when resurrecting individuals, so long as the individual has had a brain scan or a cybernetic implant in their brain and the mage has access to the body. Ressurection without the body requires Programming 5.
3 dots: At this level, the mage can create complex programs, allowing him to make peform feats that would make a normal programmer turn green. Programs that can pass the Turing Test, robots that can walk (with Matter), or a compter that can beat the greatest go players are within the capabilities of a mage of this level. This allows the mage to enhance any cybernetic enhancements to their brain, effectively allowing them to increase their mental attributes. This level also allows a form of telepathy between the mage and computers or other cyborgs.
4 dots: The mage can create programs that are about as intelligent as a human in one specific area, such as fighting, secretarial work, research, or whatever they choose. The mage can also perform major alterations to a cyborgs mind over time by attempting to change their subconsciousness, or take complete control of a cyborg. They can also improve other cyborgs mental attributes.
5 dots: The mage can completly alter the mind of a cyborg. The mage can also create full artificial intelligences that are as smart or smarter than a human. These AIs are capable of becoming mages, though it is difficult to predict, and impossible to compel at this level. The mage can also create copies of others brains, allowing the mage to resurrect or copy individuals. Due to the nature of magic or enlightenment, the mage cannot create a copy of a living mage, and any attempt to do so will likely result in a marauder at best.
Programming
1 dot: At this level the mage can detect programs. While this doesn't sound impressive, it allows the mage to be much more effective at fixing computers. This can be combined with Correspondence or Data 1 to detect programs remotely.
2 dots: The mage can now create programs. This can be used to enhance normal Computer related rolls, to create viruses, or to send impulses to individuals with cybernetic brains. If the mage has a cybernetic implant in their brain, this allows them to increase their multitasking or concentration. The mage can also read the surface thoughts of individuals with cybernetic brains. At this level, the mage can use Programming in place of Spirit when resurrecting individuals, so long as the individual has had a brain scan or a cybernetic implant in their brain and the mage has access to the body. Ressurection without the body requires Programming 5.
3 dots: At this level, the mage can create complex programs, allowing him to make peform feats that would make a normal programmer turn green. Programs that can pass the Turing Test, robots that can walk (with Matter), or a compter that can beat the greatest go players are within the capabilities of a mage of this level. This allows the mage to enhance any cybernetic enhancements to their brain, effectively allowing them to increase their mental attributes. This level also allows a form of telepathy between the mage and computers or other cyborgs.
4 dots: The mage can create programs that are about as intelligent as a human in one specific area, such as fighting, secretarial work, research, or whatever they choose. The mage can also perform major alterations to a cyborgs mind over time by attempting to change their subconsciousness, or take complete control of a cyborg. They can also improve other cyborgs mental attributes.
5 dots: The mage can completly alter the mind of a cyborg. The mage can also create full artificial intelligences that are as smart or smarter than a human. These AIs are capable of becoming mages, though it is difficult to predict, and impossible to compel at this level. The mage can also create copies of others brains, allowing the mage to resurrect or copy individuals. Due to the nature of magic or enlightenment, the mage cannot create a copy of a living mage, and any attempt to do so will likely result in a marauder at best.
- Location
- Canada
How is a program that can pass the Turing test reliably (3 dots) significantly different from a true AI (5 dots)? Given that the Turing test is the most widely accepted test for differentiating between AIs and mere programs, I have trouble thinking of any difference whatsoever.
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
Chinese Room. It takes the input and puts out an acceptable output, but there's nothing going on upstairs.
grommile
nasty-minded old cynic
- Location
- NERV-Mercia
- Pronouns
- Traditional/Animate
Passing the Turing test means that the entity can hold a conversation over a text-only channel for five minutes and have a 70% chance of not being identifiable as a mechanical entity by the human test-giver.
A "true AI", for these purposes, can reasonably be taken to be fully sentient and sapient, as the sphere in question is being proposed as an ItX replacement for Mind and the proposed text indicates that the thinking entities created are potentially capable of developing Enlightened Genius (i.e. becoming magi following the Technocratic paradigm).
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I think the difference is that one is a VI(Virtual Intelligence; a sentient program) and the other is an AGI(Artificially Generated Intelligence; a sapient program).
The difference between a smart animal and an actual person.
NonSequtur
a body
Because unintelligent chatbots have passed the Turing test while being dumb as rocks.
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
It is an idiom. He is calling the chatbots stupid.What do you mean by dumb as rocks?
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Why are they stupid?
- Location
- Canada
I appear to have remembered the Turing test incorrectly. I thought the Turing test was more comprehensive than 5 minutes of conversation. Objection withdrawn.
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
Because they just ask questions based on the last statement, and waffle whenever asked something.
Aleph
Princess of Stabbity
- Location
- The sixth circle of Hell (second on weekends)
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It doesn't, actually. Or at least, that's not the original form of the Turing test; it's the "Hollywood version". Passing the actual Turing test means that the program has a favourable rate of convincing a person that it is a man or a woman when compared against someone of the opposite gender trying to do the same thing. Which means chatbots have a much harder time of it, since you're trying to convey a specific piece of information and compare favourably to human pretending-to-be-something skills, rather than just throwing out a bunch of rhetoric and dumb automated responses to push back the time until someone realises there's no thought going on behind them.
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- Pronouns
- They/Them
Since I can't afford the book (paying large amounts of money on a curiosity for me trying to make a character for a non-Tabletop RP-type thing of M:TA is a bit outside my opinion) can anyone tell me how Nameless Orders as described in Left-Handed Path work? From Mage: The Awakening? Someone mentioned them a while back but I didn't follow up then because I wasn't interested in Mage, whereas now I...am a bit!
Look here under Legacies/Traditions and you should find information on all the Left Hand Paths.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Well, I meant more that it was mentioned that, in a book on Left-Handed Paths, rules were also given for something called Nameless Orders, a sort of tier-2 Mages something or other. It's sorta like how you can find the strangest rules hiding in random books with nwod.
Like, I'm pretty sure the Nameless Orders aren't a Left-Handed Legacy...someone just thought that talking about them in that context was interesting or...something?
Nameless Orders, in a nutshell, are groups of mages whose ideologies, beliefs, and/or goals do not align with those of the other 6 orders. The term is just a catchall for groups of mages who sit outside of the established norms of mage society.
In terms of relations with the big 6 or eachother they can be hostile, friendly, or anywhere between.
In terms of relations with the big 6 or eachother they can be hostile, friendly, or anywhere between.
And technically the Free Council is just a really big Nameless Order or a bunch of little ones that grouped together for protection/representation.