White Wolf's World of Darkness

[The Laurent]

I've, mmm, always had the thing that I don't really get Theban Sorcery. Like, all it has tying it together is "vaguely Biblical or Egyptian shit, oh and you always need a ritual ingredient for it".

Now, Cruac? Cruac I get. Like, thematically and visually. It's dark, bloody magic. It invokes pagan gods. I can tell you if an effect feels appropriate for it. Cruac works with Vampire, because it's all paid for with Vitae (so you're paying for it with life force) and using it a lot makes you a terrible person even before you bring in humanity mechanics (because it's Vitae expensive and so you're hurting lots more people if you use Cruac than a vampire who only spends Vitae on day to day survival). Cruac does shit like making evil cursed knives, ripping open the guts of animals to read the future, scrying for things in basins of blood, painting blood on a chosen warrior to make them frenzy in a controlled way - you know, good wholesome villain stuff.



Have my answer to this from 2008.

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Which is sort of a shame, because I like the Lancea thematically, they can be very appropriately creepy and religious-horror-y, and they honestly also make sense. Well, sort of. I have this mental hack I have for the setting if I ever wanted to run a low-power version of it where the number of people with a BP over 3 or 4 is, like, genuine 'legendary' stuff, and in that, the five Covenants are instead, like, persuasions. Ways that people react and band together that might call themselves fifty different things and die and reform but ultimately you can't kill an idea.

And the Lancea are everyone who comes from a religious background or sees the world from that sort of mindset. The Invictus are those who seek power and attempt to use their nature for control and etc, etc, and until you strange the last politician in the entrails of the last priest, neither mindset can actually be vanquished, even if an individual small body (there wouldn't be Princes everywhere in this setting) might be destroyed.

But, going back to the topic, it does feel like the canon Lancea need something, and I think there is something there in biblical themes/images? At least, that seems like it could be a start to some sort of magic system.

But I'm not sure where I'd go with it.

 

[Chehrazad]

I've, mmm, always had the thing that I don't really get Theban Sorcery. Like, all it has tying it together is "vaguely Biblical or Egyptian shit, oh and you always need a ritual ingredient for it".

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Theban Sorcery as written is fucking stupid. Ignore it.

Instead, give it a huge focus on sins and the punishment of such, an even bigger focus on specifically punishing the seven deadly sins, and themes of trial through adversity.

And, most important of all.

It is not the most human of magics that a vampire can learn, where Cruac is bloody, visceral and something you can feel, Theban Sorcery is alien, it is merciless and numinous. You don't get power from being more humane, you become disconnected and disillusioned, seeing more and more sins everywhere, more and more filthy flesh.

More weakness.

You can see where I'm going from here. Theban Sorcery should make you just as inhuman as Cruac, but where Cruac turns you into a monster, Theban Sorcery does something quite different.

Theban Sorcery turns you into a judge.

Or rather, someone who sees himself as a judge.

When someone says "let he who is truly innocent cast the first stone." You respond with "Very well" and pick up a stone to aim.

Now, Cruac? Cruac I get. Like, thematically and visually. It's dark, bloody magic. It invokes pagan gods. I can tell you if an effect feels appropriate for it. Cruac works with Vampire, because it's all paid for with Vitae (so you're paying for it with life force) and using it a lot makes you a terrible person even before you bring in humanity mechanics (because it's Vitae expensive and so you're hurting lots more people if you use Cruac than a vampire who only spends Vitae on day to day survival). Cruac does shit like making evil cursed knives, ripping open the guts of animals to read the future, scrying for things in basins of blood, painting blood on a chosen warrior to make them frenzy in a controlled way - you know, good wholesome villain stuff.

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Cruac is very well written too, it has tons of uses and it is easy to expand, which is why Theban Sorcery should be Monotheistic magic compared to the Polytheistic magic of Cruac. Cruac is hot and bloody where Theban Sorcery is cold and disconnected.

Theban Sorcery does not invoke a loving father god, it invokes a cold watchmaker deity (no go away God-Machine, back to Daemon!).

 

[EarthScorpion]

Theban Sorcery as written is fucking stupid. Ignore it.

Instead, give it a huge focus on sins and the punishment of such, an even bigger focus on specifically punishing the seven deadly sins, and themes of trial through adversity.

And, most important of all.

It is not the most human of magics that a vampire can learn, where Cruac is bloody, visceral and something you can feel, Theban Sorcery is alien, it is merciless and numinous. You don't get power from being more humane, you become disconnected and disillusioned, seeing more and more sins everywhere, more and more filthy flesh.

More weakness.

You can see where I'm going from here. Theban Sorcery should make you just as inhuman as Cruac, but where Cruac turns you into a monster, Theban Sorcery does something quite different.

Theban Sorcery turns you into a judge.

Or rather, someone who sees himself as a judge.

When someone says "let he who is truly innocent cast the first stone." You respond with "Very well" and pick up a stone to aim.

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Hmm.

You know what I'm seeing from this? I'm seeing Contracts.

More specifically, I'm seeing Contracts where the catch is the only way to activate them.

And a lot of the catches are sustained behaviours that you have to keep up all the time, in case you might need to access the power. The priest burned off his hand and keeps it from regrowing with a hot poker every evening, because he might need to use Lash of Flames and call on the burning metal whip of God from the stump where his hand should be. The priest only has one eye and one ear, because he cut out the others and cast them away so that he would not sin and so he gets back WP from refusing to follow his vice and loses WP when he indulges. The priest has skin as hard as iron, as long as he has publicly shamed a sinner since the last time he slept.

 

[The Laurent]

Hmm.

You know what I'm seeing from this? I'm seeing Contracts.

More specifically, I'm seeing Contracts where the catch is the only way to activate them.

And a lot of the catches are sustained behaviours that you have to keep up all the time, in case you might need to access the power. The priest burned off his hand and keeps it from regrowing with a hot poker every evening, because he might need to use Lash of Flames and call on the burning metal whip of God from the stump where his hand should be. The priest only has one eye and one ear, because he cut out the others and cast them away so that he would not sin and so he gets back WP from refusing to follow his vice and loses WP when he indulges. The priest has skin as hard as iron, as long as he has publicly shamed a sinner since the last time he slept.

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I assume he keeps the sinner in a cage and then drags him out for all others to see?

 

[Chehrazad]

Hmm.

You know what I'm seeing from this? I'm seeing Contracts.

More specifically, I'm seeing Contracts where the catch is the only way to activate them.

And a lot of the catches are sustained behaviours that you have to keep up all the time, in case you might need to access the power. The priest burned off his hand and keeps it from regrowing with a hot poker every evening, because he might need to use Lash of Flames and call on the burning metal whip of God from the stump where his hand should be. The priest only has one eye and one ear, because he cut out the others and cast them away so that he would not sin and so he gets back WP from refusing to follow his vice and loses WP when he indulges. The priest has skin as hard as iron, as long as he has publicly shamed a sinner since the last time he slept.

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This one is actually a really good example because another thing that Theban Sorcery is, is a crucible.

It takes you and burns you and scourges you and eats you up, and either you meet it's expectations, or you don't.

The Lord will only show you the way but you have to actually walk it yourself.

After all, a wolf who cannot make the sheep afraid, is pretty bad at putting the fear of God in his prey after all.

(Lancea is my favorite Covenant, I've spent all of Requiem's development alternating between facepalming over the treatment of Theban Sorcery and being jealous at the Circle.)

EDIT: Also: Cruac caps your Humanity and makes you a monster, but Theban Sorcery should add more sins and make you judgemental. Thus the Sanctified will be sneering at the other Covenants for their "lack of restraint" and "missing virtue". At any point, when you can add a mechanic to the Lancea, consider whether it will add more or less sneering.

Always go for maximum sneering and derision.

Always.

 

[The Laurent]

This one is actually a really good example because another thing that Theban Sorcery is, is a crucible.

It takes you and burns you and scourges you and eats you up, and either you meet it's expectations, or you don't.

The Lord will only show you the way but you have to actually walk it yourself.

After all, a wolf who cannot make the sheep afraid, is pretty bad at putting the fear of God in his prey after all.

(Lancea is my favorite Covenant, I've spent all of Requiem's development alternating between facepalming over the treatment of Theban Sorcery and being jealous at the Circle.)

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I mean, if we're going that route, there should be some sort of actually-rather-powerful Lancea Sorcery that involves killing yourself.

On a cross. With a stake through your heart and then exposed to the burning sun, but have that sacrifice in some way, like, not be in vain (unless you rolled a failure in which case tough luck, enjoy wherever the Damned go after they die, you gave up eternity for nothing).

I'd also very explicitly make the roll happen only *after* you've made the choice to die and carried it out.

 

[Chehrazad]

I mean, if we're going that route, there should be some sort of actually-rather-powerful Lancea Sorcery that involves killing yourself.

On a cross. With a stake through your heart and then exposed to the burning sun, but have that sacrifice in some way, like, not be in vain (unless you rolled a failure in which case tough luck, enjoy wherever the Damned go after they die, you gave up eternity for nothing).

I'd also very explicitly make the roll happen only *after* you've made the choice to die and carried it out.

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In Requiem for Rome, there was a ritual which activated when you let yourself be burned.

The Martyr's Miracle allowed you to shield your allies from the sun, by causing them to only take one point of lethal every five minutes, or two points on bashing every minute on an exceptional success.

I've never been quite satisfied with it.

 

[Aaron Peori]

Incidentally, if you were actually trying to fix up some sort of Blood Sorcery for V:TR. Like, some form of 'use blood in a ritual to do *something*', how would you hack it?

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One off plot devices, mainly. Blood magic rituals should be the kind of thing that either your PCs spend the adventure thwarting or the adventure performing. It should be a reason to do something incredibly dangerous and stupid. It should be the reason to seek out ancient books of forbidden lore and old relics and wait for just the right stellar correspondence. It should be the kind of thing that is basically impossible to do without alerting every potential antagonist with their wits about them that someone is trying to do (this thing) soon if they pay attention to [recent museum break ins/things unearthed in acheological digs/the unexplained fire at this spooky location/delete as appropriate].

If its the kind of thing where the PC can say "I spend blood and X happens" its not good. Nor should it be something you buy with merits (though if it grants you some benefit, you may need to pay off that benefit as if it were a merit).

Basically its like joining a bloodline, a really Big Deal which requires you to go out an interact with dangerous things in a significant way. It also serves as a handy source of plots ("The outcast Prince is trying to cast a curse on our coterie, he must be stopped or we're all doomed!") kind of deal.

 

[Omicron]

I mean, if we're going that route, there should be some sort of actually-rather-powerful Lancea Sorcery that involves killing yourself.

On a cross. With a stake through your heart and then exposed to the burning sun, but have that sacrifice in some way, like, not be in vain (unless you rolled a failure in which case tough luck, enjoy wherever the Damned go after they die, you gave up eternity for nothing).

I'd also very explicitly make the roll happen only *after* you've made the choice to die and carried it out.

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Well, obviously you are dying on the cross to redeem the sins of your fellow vampires. To cleanse their souls.

So such a sorcery should raise the Humanity rating of all vampires in its area of effect (possibly an entire city) to that of true purity, 10.

Then, over the following week, the awareness of all that they have done should hound them, the tiniest event triggering a traumatic flashback that their too-pure souls cannot endure.

So over a week, going from Humanity 10 on down, they suffer degeneration roll after degeneration roll. With all the accompanying psychotic breaks.

Most of the time this spell kills half the city's vampires. The remaining half is split between traumatized wrecks who had to face their own evil, jaded monsters who briefly saw hope but expected it to be snatched away all along, and those who came out of the experience truly Purified, granted a second chance at righteousness.

...for however long that lasts.

 

[Chehrazad]

Omicron has some ideas there.

Theban Sorcery takes you and grinds you down, but it does it to accomplish a goal. It strikes you with the lash, but only to lead you onwards on the road set for you.

Wherever that road leads you.

 

[toxinvictory]

Um, hi

Well if I am writing a story using the setting it makes sense to post here:

Recently I have started work on a quest detailing the adventures of multiple characters who have been droped into alternative (crossover) realities. The Quest being about the characters establishing themselves in there new settings and trying to get home.

As you can probably guess one such reality is the New World of Darkness,

Each post will be divided into three sections focusing on the characters in there respective settings. I have just about finished the draft of the first post and have a good idea of where the story is going.

I am looking for a Beta reader to correct grammatical errors in draft chapters and bounce ideas off. If you are interested please send me a PM/conversation.

 

[GardenerBriareus]

Soooooo...

Bloodlines in V:tR.

Anybody use them?

I've got two of the books for them, and I can definitely see some neat ways to dick around with them, but I'm curious if anybody actually bothers using them-

Um, hi

Well if I am writing a story using the setting it makes sense to post here:

Recently I have started work on a quest detailing the adventures of multiple characters who have been droped into alternative (crossover) realities. The Quest being about the characters establishing themselves in there new settings and trying to get home.

As you can probably guess one such reality is the New World of Darkness,

Each post will be divided into three sections focusing on the characters in there respective settings. I have just about finished the draft of the first post and have a good idea of where the story is going.

I am looking for a Beta reader to correct grammatical errors in draft chapters and bounce ideas off. If you are interested please send me a PM/conversation.

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FRESH BLOOD!

 

[TheLastOne]

Eh, Theban sorcery is a holy heavenly power that even a Vampire can touch, but I liked the implications that it was stolen by the Lancea from other, older paths, that their path was based on a deceit and a theft.

You are calling to the Heavens and it's messengers, and as long as you follow the letter of the law it will answer, but it isn't what you think. And so your sorcery plays out wrong and alien and with implications that hark to heretical practices that predate Christianity.

 

[Chehrazad]

Eh, Theban sorcery is a holy heavenly power that even a Vampire can touch, but I liked the implications that it was stolen by the Lancea from other, older paths, that their path was based on a deceit and a theft.

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Nah, Theban Sorcery is exactly as holy as Cruac. Maybe it was granted by an angel, maybe it wasn't and truth be told it doesn't really matter whether or not it was.

After all, righteousness is only what you make of it.

You are calling to the Heavens and it's messengers, and as long as you follow the letter of the law it will answer, but it isn't what you think. And so your sorcery plays out wrong and alien and with implications that hark to heretical practices that predate Christianity.

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The only thing Theban Sorcery inherently calls to is [spend 1 Willpower + Token], whether it actually draws power from the Heavens is up to the Storyteller. I prefer having it as a Christian or at least Abrahamic thing originating with the Jewish vampires in Egypt, or maybe even given to the Christians by an angel beneath Thebes. But each to his own I guess.

 

[TheLastOne]

Nah, Theban Sorcery is exactly as holy as Cruac. Maybe it was granted by an angel, maybe it wasn't and truth be told it doesn't really matter whether or not it was.

After all, righteousness is only what you make of it.



The only thing Theban Sorcery inherently calls to is [spend 1 Vitae], whether it actually draws power from the Heavens is up to the Storyteller. I prefer having it as a Christian or at least Abrahamic thing originating with the Jewish vampires in Egypt, or maybe even given to the Christians by an angel beneath Thebes. But each to his own I guess.

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Willpower and a token. Cruac is the one that calls for blood.

 

[Chehrazad]

Willpower and a token. Cruac is the one that calls for blood.

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Oh right, forgot that.

EDIT: And as you can see, it has always said that. Nothing to see citizen, move along.

 

[Generalissimo]

TREMERE CONCENSUS

That's it

That's how oVampire and oMage work together

It's a line where the Tremere won the ascension war

This explains everything

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Wouldn't necessarily call it a Tremere victory in the Ascension War.
It's *merely* Tremere Consensus holding dominant position over the sleepers.
Traditions and Technocracy failed to realize it.
Mage basis prevent anyone from seeing lesser vampires getting a foothold in Consensus.
Tremere know about Consensus and just how everything works.
Why shouldn't folks who previously were mages completely stop caring?
Knowing how to manipulate sleepers from a mage's perspective is plenty useful.

Honestly that sounds awesome.

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It sounds awesome primarily because it's awesome.
So how ought we start defining a Tremere Consensus?

 

[hyzmarca]

Wouldn't necessarily call it a Tremere victory in the Ascension War.
It's *merely* Tremere Consensus holding dominant position over the sleepers.
Traditions and Technocracy failed to realize it.
Mage basis prevent anyone from seeing lesser vampires getting a foothold in Consensus.
Tremere know about Consensus and just how everything works.
Why shouldn't folks who previously were mages completely stop caring?
Knowing how to manipulate sleepers from a mage's perspective is plenty useful.

It sounds awesome primarily because it's awesome.
So how ought we start defining a Tremere Consensus?

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1) Vampires exist. This is the foundation stone of the Tremere Consensus. If the sleepers stopped believing that vampires are real, then the Tremere would all go poof.

2) Vampires can do magic. Obviously, the Tremere need this. If realistic biovamps replaced the magic undead vamps in the Consensus, then they'd start taking Paradox from their Thaumaturgy.

3) Ancient Conspiricies rule the world. This belief is the cornerstone to the Tremere's temporal power, and the reason they have a simultaneously needlessly byzantine and overly simple organizational hierarchy.

Everything else can be sacrificed, but the Tremere need those three things.

 

[Chehrazad]

This is the point someone points out that vampires are unable to define the Consensus since they have no Avatars.

That person then gets summarily shouted down by everyone else.

 

[Generalissimo]

This is the point someone points out that vampires are unable to define the Consensus since they have no Avatars.

That person then gets summarily shouted down by everyone else.

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Technically speaking *anybody* who knows about Consensus already is within a position to manipulate it.
Once you know the sleepers control reality many doors are opened.
In theory a cabal of unawakened SpaceBattlers can work towards preferred reality.
Sufficienty Velocity against SpaceBattles in a struggle for dominating reality

 

[hyzmarca]

This is the point someone points out that vampires are unable to define the Consensus since they have no Avatars.

That person then gets summarily shouted down by everyone else.

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Sleepers don't have Avatars, either.

 

[EarthScorpion]

Sleepers don't have Avatars, either.

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... what are you smoking?

Yes, they do. That's why they're called Sleepers. Their Avatars are asleep.

 

[Generalissimo]

Sleepers don't have Avatars, either.

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You could, however, try convincing everybody to believe in something!
Once a sufficient number of people start believing you're manipulated reality!
If everybody believes in something you made up thus affecting existence something happened. . .
. . . how is that not altering Consensus?

 

[Chehrazad]

Sleepers don't have Avatars, either.

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There is a reason they call Mages "Awakened".

(A hint: It's not because they're early risers.)

 

[EarthScorpion]

This one is actually a really good example because another thing that Theban Sorcery is, is a crucible.

It takes you and burns you and scourges you and eats you up, and either you meet it's expectations, or you don't.

The Lord will only show you the way but you have to actually walk it yourself.

After all, a wolf who cannot make the sheep afraid, is pretty bad at putting the fear of God in his prey after all.

Click to shrink...

So, hmm.

Chastisement of the Indulgent

"Longinus found the Creature of Bethlehem, feeding on a young woman of that town. With his keen eyes, he saw the Creature fed to excess and cared not for the sins of the woman. With a cudgel he beat the Creature around the head, shouting 'You are a beast, so flee like a dog' and the Creature fled."

The vampire activates this Miracle after successfully striking a character with their bare hands or a blunt object and exclaiming some words of condemnation or chastisement for their actions.

Action: Reflexive
Duration: Special
Dice Pool: Charisma + Intimidation + Blood Potency vs Composure + Blood Potency
Sanction: May only be used on a character observed to be indulging in a Vice, or a vampire in Frenzy

Roll Results

Dramatic Failure: The vampire becomes aware of his own sins. He enters Fear Frenzy.
Failure: The judgement of God does not strike fear into the heart of the sinner.
Success: The vampire gains more successes, and the target is struck down with fear and knowledge of their sins. A vampire in Frenzy automatically transitions to a Fear Frenzy for the rest of the duration of the Frenzy. A character indulging in a vice suffers a penalty to all actions equal to the vampire's successes from the overwhelming shame, while they can see the vampire. This lasts until the next sunrise. Actions to flee the presence of the vampire do not suffer this penalty.
Exceptional Success: In addition to the benefits from the additional successes, the character takes a single point of damage from fire on the point the vampire struck them.​