More than we'd like, less than they'd want.

Informative in some ways, if difficult to use. Still trying to think and put together a few more details that I probably should have, in theory, gotten together earlier about Vampires, though I don't want to say too much since people reading my Quest could also read this. Just trying to finalize a few things, a few top positions I didn't think I'd ever have to directly fill out rather than hint at, but that it's at least possible I'll have to now show.

So I'm trying to work that part out.

Also I admit, a lot of the political stuff for *some* though not all of the White Wolf Vampires feels like part of you is wondering how these structures come into being. Like, entire clan structures to maintain and enforce certain things, when the ratios are 1:50,000 or 1:100,000, or somewhere between those two or whatnot. It's, like, 'New York has 200 Vampires, it makes sense if that's the number that there'd be elaborate feeding structures and fifteen layers of clan and bloodline and covenant loyalty...but is the average Metro area of 1 million people (10-20 vampires depending on where you fall on the 1:50,000 or 1:100,000) going to have all of that?

Edit: (Is reading the Ventrue Clanbook) Also, White Wolf needs to stop having its vampires influencing and deciding huge parts and epochs of human history, it only shows their weaknesses in understanding some of the ways history works (Is reading the part where the Merovingians and Charlemagne are somehow Ventrue plots.)

Edit2: Though at least it admits that the Ventrue aren't all-knowing chessmasters controlling history, and are at least somewhat just reacting to what humans do. At least a bit...it's more balanced than 'History is a series of Ventrue pawns dancing on strings' at least. So it could be worse.
 
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Edit: (Is reading the Ventrue Clanbook) Also, White Wolf needs to stop having its vampires influencing and deciding huge parts and epochs of human history, it only shows their weaknesses in understanding some of the ways history works (Is reading the part where the Merovingians and Charlemagne are somehow Ventrue plots.)

Edit2: Though at least it admits that the Ventrue aren't all-knowing chessmasters controlling history, and are at least somewhat just reacting to what humans do. At least a bit...it's more balanced than 'History is a series of Ventrue pawns dancing on strings' at least. So it could be worse.
In NWOD "History" isn't some objective thing, it changes all the time.
Which is why the "fog of ages" exists; it isn't a Vampire's memories getting cloudy with age, it's the events of the past shifting into something unfamiliar to make way for the horror that is "now".
That's also why there isn't a fixed origin for vampirism.
 
In NWOD "History" isn't some objective thing, it changes all the time.
Which is why the "fog of ages" exists; it isn't a Vampire's memories getting cloudy with age, it's the events of the past shifting into something unfamiliar to make way for the horror that is "now".
That's also why there isn't a fixed origin for vampirism.


I...what?

*stares at them*

What?

So Vampires are (unintentional) reality-warpers or something?

*Is a historian, is...startled to say the least at this idea.*
 
Basically if you can stop people believing that something happened you can push it out of the world as they now assume it is unreal and so it never was.

That's not retconning though. Not really. That's making people forget. If I write something down and then someone kills me and kills themselves in a way that keeps anyone from knowing it happened and destroy the piece of paper, then nobody would know that I wrote something down.

That something would still have been written down.

Retconning is literally changing reality itself.

Wait, nevermind. It is retconning.

Lol wut.
 
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That's not retconning though. Not really. That's making people forget. If I write something down and then someone kills me and kills themselves in a way that keeps anyone from knowing it happened and destroy the piece of paper, then nobody would know that I wrote something down.

That something would still have been written down.

Retconning is literally changing reality itself.

Wait, nevermind. It is retconning.

Lol wut.
Ah but if you make enough people not believe /weave a strong enough spell about, in the existence of a island by making them think that there is only water there , then one day the island is simply gone *horrible simplification*
 
That's not retconning though. Not really. That's making people forget. If I write something down and then someone kills me and kills themselves in a way that keeps anyone from knowing it happened and destroy the piece of paper, then nobody would know that I wrote something down.

That something would still have been written down.

Retconning is literally changing reality itself.

Wait, nevermind. It is retconning.

Lol wut.
Retconning is the "basic" weapon of Arcana6+ Mages, it's why Atlantis never existed.
 
Or in absence of Mages (which are not hard canon in nWoD, things don't exist unless you port in the associated splatbooks) only the now exists and the world is the nightmare of some elder thing and thus get fuzzy if the past events aren't relevant anywhere, or some other horrorverse thing where the past and future don't actually exist in relation to the now.

Quantum-mechanical state memory won't save you now!

*continues throwing ideas at the wall to see what sticks*
 
Basically if you can stop people believing that something happened you can push it out of the world as they now assume it is unreal and so it never was.
This bit is CWoD. Reality is objective not subjective in NWoD. You can believe something all you want in NWoD and it won't change anything.

I'm not accepting that either. The 'Mages control time-space and do Retcons.' I mean, if it's true, fine, and STs can do all they want with that, but it's utterly ridiculous.
It's a bit more complicated than that. Archmages, mages with arcana 6+, can edit the Supernal. The Supernal is like the source code of reality and any changes you make to it happen retroactively. As in if you erase the symbols that make up say McDonalds then not only would MCDs not exist it would have never existed. This is in fact what happened to Atlantis. The Exarches attempted to destroy the symbols that made Atlantis possible after they ascended. History was rewritten without Atlantis but the Exarches fucked up a bit and now there's bits and pieces of alternate timeline versions of Atlantis all over the globe in ruins.

This isn't an easy process mind you. You have to prepare the world for the change in some big symbolic way, travel to the Supernal, and start making the necessary edits all the while hoping nothing interferes because if you run out of time while in the Supernal you will be wiped from existence. And God help you if you fuck up the edit itself. (See above reference to Atlantean ruins.)
 
It's a bit more complicated than that. Archmages, mages with arcana 6+, can edit the Supernal. The Supernal is like the source code of reality and any changes you make to it happen retroactively. As in if you erase the symbols that make up say McDonalds then not only would MCDs not exist it would have never existed. This is in fact what happened to Atlantis. The Exarches attempted to destroy the symbols that made Atlantis possible after they ascended. History was rewritten without Atlantis but the Exarches fucked up a bit and now there's bits and pieces of alternate timeline versions of Atlantis all over the globe in ruins.

This isn't an easy process mind you. You have to prepare the world for the change in some big symbolic way, travel to the Supernal, and start making the necessary edits all the while hoping nothing interferes because if you run out of time while in the Supernal you will be wiped from existence. And God help you if you fuck up the edit itself. (See above reference to Atlantean ruins.)
Not to mention the fact that Time 7 Archmasters can outright time travel.

If you don't want to use Mages in your setting -- which is fair, True Magic be weird, yo -- you might want to use a more physical argument: the human brain simply isn't built to last for centuries. Even after it's been Vamp'd, it still has limitations; it's not unreasonable to assume that, after centuries of use, things can get cross-wired, or lost, or filed in the wrong directory. Basically, a Mage-less WoD has a history that is really true, but the Elders don't remember it quite right. Neither does anyone else IRL, really; even in the best case scenario, maintaining an accurate account of history is really, really difficult.
 
Not to mention the fact that Time 7 Archmasters can outright time travel.

If you don't want to use Mages in your setting -- which is fair, True Magic be weird, yo -- you might want to use a more physical argument: the human brain simply isn't built to last for centuries. Even after it's been Vamp'd, it still has limitations; it's not unreasonable to assume that, after centuries of use, things can get cross-wired, or lost, or filed in the wrong directory. Basically, a Mage-less WoD has a history that is really true, but the Elders don't remember it quite right. Neither does anyone else IRL, really; even in the best case scenario, maintaining an accurate account of history is really, really difficult.

Hmm, I might not make it Mage-less (can't for the Quest), but these are all really good thoughts. For Vampires, at least, it's sorta fun to imagine that they're deluding themselves half the time about how important and special and relevant they were to history. "Oh, I totally started that war, it had nothing to do with the thousand other proximate factors that would have caused it anyways. More wine, dear?"
 
I have a greater tolerance for a lot of Masquerade elements than ES, and one of the setting elements I really liked were the Revenants; families of ghouls that have been ghouled so often that they've started to produce their own Vitae, being ghouls from birth.

They were primarily a Tzimisce thing, though the Tremere, Baali, and Giovanni and some other clans and bloodlines I can't remember all had their own Revenant families. One Clan that didn't seem to have any Revenant families at all were the Ventrue, which is strange - one would think that a bunch of self-aggrandizing lording jerks would have created enough ghoul servants for themselves to make a Revenant family or two.

But then again, many elements of oVampire are best in moderation; if every Clan runs around with half a dozen ghouls, they become overused and lose their mysterious appeal.

A character concept in the back of the Ventrue clanbook gave me an idea. There are Ventrue Revenant families, but they are not created to be servants - they're created to be food.

The Ventrue Vineyards
Over the centuries, certain Ventrue blood-connesseurs have become obsessed with finding the most delectable sources of blood to drink. To overcome the problems of individual vessels being hard to find and short-lived, these Ventrue started to experiment with breeding, pharmaceutics, and beginning in the 19th Century, eugenics. Especially tasty humans were ghouled to keep them vigorous and breeding for longer, which eventually resulted in these "human vineyards" becoming Revenants.

The self-produced Vitae only increased their value, but the Ventrue in charge were secretive about their methods, obsessed with the success of their methods, and certainly not on speaking terms with the Tzimisce, leaving them unaware that their Vineyards are Revenants. The Vineyards were not created to be servants, and have never been taught to use their Disciplines, which helped conceal the fact. The Vineyards' increased hardiness, charm, and strong personalities has been seen as boons to the "brewers", as has the picky, delicate tastes that reflect the Ventrue clan weakness.

The Vineyards (sometimes "Orchards") are extended families and groups of families that live together in secluded or enclosed communities. Their Ventrue masters have encourage and ensured that the Vineyards are kept separated from the common cattle, to prevent their precious sources of exquisite Vitae from being watered out or corrupted by the outside. This is accomplished through various means. One Vineyard family live upper-middle-class lives in a gated community in the rich suburbs of Bureos Aires. Another family lives in a small town in the American Midwest, kept separate by the distance. Other families again are ethnic, national, or religious minorities kept separated by prejudice and scrutiny. The Ventrue have encouraged and instilled the tribal, clannish, and often elitist attitudes in their Vineyards to ensure they voluntarily keep their blood to themselves.

The dark side to this is that while others may not enter, once you're part of a Vineyard family, you may never leave. Like a bottle of fine wine, a Vineyard child is an investment, and like a prize-winning breeding horse, their offspring must be controlled. A Vineyard teenager having children with unapproved outsiders would risk putting Vineyard blood in the hands of anyone, which the Ventrue brewers cannot risk. That these restricted attitudes towards sexuality, especially female sexuality, promotes conservative values serve the Ventrue just fine - it is an obvious sign of the superiority of their vessels, that they are resistant to modernism and the rebellious attitudes of the rabble. The horrible attitudes, destructive pressures, depression, and suicides this leads to does not concern the Ventrue; some losses must be expected. In the Vineyards that are run strongly on eugenic lines, the control of sexuality is even more ridgid.

The one benefit all Vineyards can reap, even the most secluded and ostracized, is good health. In addition to their natural ghoul fortitude, and the Fortitude of clan Ventrue, they always have access to professional physicians. In addition to their regular duties, these also take the blood necessary to keep the Vineyard business flowing. On the darker side of things, these physicians administer the pharmaceutical concoctions and forced abortions necessary to keep the blood pure and tasty. To ghouls sold off to rich buyers who want a lifetime supply of delectable Vitae, these physicians administer the forced, permanent, and, irreversible sterilization. Among the more modern Vineyard owners, birth control is more liberally encouraged and trained psychologists are used to mitigate the symptoms of the abusive lives.

Most inhabitants of Vineyards are kept safe from outside threats and even the wanton snacking of vampires, but they are also exposed to greater dangers. Kidnappings to put a Vineyard on the black market happen, and a breeding pair would fetch an exorbitant price from entrepreneurial Vampires. Competition puts the most important Vineyard individuals -or even whole families - at risk of assassination as a form of industrial sabotage. And sometimes, an outside vampire will go on a scrump in an Orchard, drinking vessels dry of their delectable Vitae.
 
Or in absence of Mages (which are not hard canon in nWoD, things don't exist unless you port in the associated splatbooks) only the now exists and the world is the nightmare of some elder thing and thus get fuzzy if the past events aren't relevant anywhere, or some other horrorverse thing where the past and future don't actually exist in relation to the now.

Quantum-mechanical state memory won't save you now!

*continues throwing ideas at the wall to see what sticks*
If you don't like the Arch Mages explanation then you can blame it on the God Machine, or the True Fey, or the Abyss, or any other of a dozen horrible things.
 
If you don't like the Arch Mages explanation then you can blame it on the God Machine, or the True Fey, or the Abyss, or any other of a dozen horrible things.

... or, you know.

You could just be sensible and say the reason the Fog of Ages happens is that the vampire in question is spending time in a state which is very nearly true death, with the monstrous presence of the Beast rampaging through their mind playing games with them. The insanity of hunger gnaws at them while they lie in torpor, their blood clotting in their veins. Trapped between death and life within their own mind, their memories the only thing which reminds them who they are - is it any surprise they live their life time and time again, until what happened and what they only dreamed of in Beast-wracked nightmares becomes thin?

omg wtf look an explanation which doesn't bring in stupid crossover and which entirely fits with vampire's themes what the hell is going on argh madness
 
...serious question, what do you do when your dice betray you? Utterly, utterly betray you as a Storyteller?

Serious answer: Never put yourself in that situation.

In roleplaying, but especially in White Wolf games never roll the dice unless both outcomes are interesting. If you are ever in a state where you are "rolling to prevent the campaign from ending" just don't roll. The players make the save, or spot the clue or whatever. Don't call for a roll you know could kill the entire party unless you like nihilist tragedy.
 
Serious answer: Never put yourself in that situation.

In roleplaying, but especially in White Wolf games never roll the dice unless both outcomes are interesting. If you are ever in a state where you are "rolling to prevent the campaign from ending" just don't roll. The players make the save, or spot the clue or whatever. Don't call for a roll you know could kill the entire party unless you like nihilist tragedy.

To be fair, it's not in that situation here. Just in the Quest I'm doing an interesting and balanced fight has turned into a one sided yakkety-sax level of slaughter (not on the MC or I'd be giggling) against the bad guys. Thanks to 3-4 rolls not going how probability says they should. It's interesting...but also frustrating in the sense that I'd expected the fight to go differently. Ah well, I'll roll with it, but I was having a classic QM 'Why dice' moment at the time.
 
To be somewhat rude: you should have planned for that outcome. It's entire fair for the players to be lucky and get an upper hand in a fight, and you need to let the game world account for the fact that such luck happens - just as in the same way, by entering combat the players ran the risk that they would be the ones on the reviving end of bad luck, which could have ended with them splattered all over a nearby wall.
 
If your character is slaughtering people in the nWoD, you're already in trouble. Say hello to Morality checks. And the consequences of killing someone. How are you going to dispose of the bodies? What happens when people go looking for the people you kill?

The combat isn't the story. The combat causes stories.
 
To be somewhat rude: you should have planned for that outcome. It's entire fair for the players to be lucky and get an upper hand in a fight, and you need to let the game world account for the fact that such luck happens - just as in the same way, by entering combat the players ran the risk that they would be the ones on the reviving end of bad luck, which could have ended with them splattered all over a nearby wall.

I mean, don't think I don't have things planned now, I was more just surprised and venting a little. It's not the end of the world, and I can in fact cope for it, explain it narratively in written format, all of that. Eh, it's hard to explain out of context, and since I haven't actually done the story-post yet, I shouldn't be giving away too much other than my surprise.

I should probably get to writing out that fight-scene now that I've finished doing the rolls.

However, thanks all for the words, I think that's all very good general advice.
 
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Well it is killing a Vampire in defense of a Human. Even as a Fairest we most likely will make that roll. Of course they know how we look and all that , Ah , second day out of the hedge and already knee deep in the mud again.
 
Well it is killing a Vampire in defense of a Human. Even as a Fairest we most likely will make that roll. Of course they know how we look and all that , Ah , second day out of the hedge and already knee deep in the mud again.

You'll see soon enough. I'm writing up the fight so far. I'm actually excited now that I'm done cursing the dice, because it's going to be how fights *should* be in my opinion. Fast, brutal, chaotic and confusing.
 
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