Newton proved his law with empirical evidence that anybody could corroborate. He didn't take it out of his hat.

(Now, if that evidence existed before the OoR made his work of promoting a understatable, clockwork universe is another question, but clearly, by the point Newton gave the law of gravitation to the public it already existed).

At this point you're suggesting that consensus isn't actually consensus-it's not actually influenced by what sleepers believe, but rather some whims of a strange and changing universe. The Technocracy being possible at all requires things like relativity and the law of universal gravitation to not be things until after they become formal theories. I'd argue that the vast majority of science in the oWoD, when introduced, is vulgar as fuck, and places like CERN and the like are huge Technocratic investments in quintessence and soaked paradox. The scientific consensus is not actually consensus. It's decades more advanced than consensus, a picture of what the Technocracy is guiding society towards. When products made using those theories start showing up in consensus, then that's when something is starting to become consensual, and even then they don't really become embedded into consensus-and something true sleepers can use-until much later.

So a Technocratic rote in this filters down like so:
1. Not even Technocrats can use it, because the Arete 6+ Technocrats haven't decided it's valid.
2. Technocrats can use it, but it's vulgar.
3. The foundations of the rote are laid by some scientists who are enlightened Technocrats.
4. Scientists who are 'merely' hedge mages under the Technocratic paradigm can reproduce it. It's still vulgar here. They demonstrate examples to the public under specific conditions (i.e. inside constructs)
5. The mainstream science or engineering community accepts that these things might be possible. Now the effect is implausible instead of vulgar-it's still 'too advanced' but people might accept it can exist. At some point, after enough exposure, it becomes coincidental.
6. The mainstream science or engineering community creates a shitty version of it. This is still only useable by people heavily immersed in the Technocratic paradigm. Take a look at the earliest microcomputers and how user-unfriendly they were as an example. As it proliferates, it's now more of an 'exceptional device'-it works perfectly in Awakened hands but will generally fail in layman hands.
7. It becomes mass marketed to the sleepers. Sometimes, this is where an effect fails. The sleepers reject it and don't believe it works, the Technocracy goes back to the drawing board as to why it went wrong and find an in-paradigm reason why, which they start to correct (go back to step 4). If not...
8. Now the thing becomes an actual part of the overall consensus.

I'd argue that a lot of Technocratic stuff gets stuck at 6 actually. It works fine in the hands of trained experts more heavily attached to the technocratic paradigm than most, but has huge problems out of that, and the Technocracy sees a lot of things get stuck there basically indefinitely. "Robots are a thing which can make everyone's lives easier," as an example, got to Step 6 back in the 70s but only is starting to get to Step 8 today.

To clarify my position, btw, i am not defending that quantum or chaos theory in particular are a etherite creation (Although they can certainly be, if that's what you want). I am going against the position that every single acepted physical law was decided by commite in some inner circle office, with no space for fuck ups, randomness, and enemy action. Because really, if the technocracy had that kind of fine control over reality, they would have wiped out all their enemies long ago.

My argument is not that every single physical law was decided by the Technocracy. My argument is that the consensus isn't just Technocratic physical laws, and in fact most of the modern scientific consensus is its own consensus-bubble which is divorced from the masses and slowly diffuses into it-often in forms the Technocracy isn't fully happy with (see the example of pop-culture quantum physics). This creates room for Traditions victories, allows the Technocracy to actually believe what it does, and makes the process of how real science take place make sense in the oWoD context. It also explains much better the difference between what regular people believe about science and what scientists believe about it in the oWoD context.
 
No, that doesn't make sense.

Sleeper scientist aren't idiots. If something enters the consensus, they will discover it and prove it through reproducible experimentation and publish it. And after that happens, the technocrats scientists can't stop that, because it they negate the evidence they will look like nutjobs themselves.

The ultimate problem here is that a scientific theory can't become part of the Consensus unless scientists discover it first. And sleeper scientists can't discover it until it becomes part of the Consensus.
 
The ultimate problem here is that a scientific theory can't become part of the Consensus unless scientists discover it first.

Again, this doesn't make sense.

Simple example: Talidomide side effects. Clearly, this is something discovered by sleeper scientists, not technocrats (It goes against their goals). And, clearly, those existed in the consensus before being discovered.

This is applicable as well, to, say, global warming.

At this point you're suggesting that consensus isn't actually consensus-it's not actually influenced by what sleepers believe, but rather some whims of a strange and changing universe.

Eh, i think we are having differing views of how consensus work. No technocrat ever wanted global warming, nor are sleeper prone to believe in their own that CO2 emisions trap heat.

What sleepers do believe, however, is that nothing comes free, and massive industrialization ends causing side effects. And those effects take form in a way explainable by the main consensus. Even if nobody believed in those a priori.
 
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The ultimate problem here is that a scientific theory can't become part of the Consensus unless scientists discover it first. And sleeper scientists can't discover it until it becomes part of the Consensus.
The explaination isn't in the Consensus, sure, but the effect being explained is already there. Science just hasn't given the official scientific explaination yet.
 
Again, this doesn't make sense.

Simple example: Talidomide side effects. Clearly, this is something discovered by sleeper scientists, not technocrats (It goes against their goals). And, clearly, those existed in the consensus before being discovered.

This is applicable as well, to, say, global warming.

Repeat it with me.

Paaaaaaradox. The Technocracy's paradigm has one major flaw in it. Paradox. Traditionalist paradigms, because they say that reality is measured by human belief, can just ignore bad things happening and blame them on the sleepers being dumb and lame. The hard-science Conventions can't. They have to explain everything in their own paradigm, which makes it much more complex. It makes it much more consistent and easier to believe in as the One True Way, sure, but to do so it needs to own the bad things as well.

The Syndicate sort of can deflect blame, which is why they're like "the mortgage crisis isn't our fault really" because economics is very much about human belief and perception shaping a lot of core variables but the Syndicate aren't the biologists or cyberneticists or engineers.

Paradox effects are caused by the consensus.

Yes, when something is fundamentally unbelievable. "This thing does X effect without side effects is too good to be true" is the core consensus belief. The specific manifestation of the side effects is not part of consensus. The Technocracy then goes and explains why these side effects happen, because that is necessary to keep their paradigm solid and makes them part of the scientific consensus (and probably anchors them in the real consensus). The Technocracy then demonstrate how they can mitigate these side effects to gradually lower the paradoxicalness of the drug or whatever, which is why we we have Clofamizine instead of Thaliomide now. And because the Technocracy creates this framework, paradox tends to work with the Technocracy and give them things like 'birth defects' and 'your shiny space gun explodes in your hand' instead of 'flowers grow from your eyeballs' as paradox effects.

...which is cold comfort when flowering eyeballs might be better than your plasma cannon backfiring.
 
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Again, this doesn't make sense.

Simple example: Talidomide side effects. Clearly, this is something discovered by sleeper scientists, not technocrats (It goes against their goals). And, clearly, those existed in the consensus before being discovered.

This is applicable as well, to, say, global warming.

The fact that drugs can poison people has been part of the Consensus for longer than the technocracy has existed, and predates the existence of molecules by quite a long time. The fact that Thalidomide is a poison is likely paradox backlash, but it's certainly nothing new to the Consensus. There is nothing vulgar about poisoning something.

To bring it back to gravity. Gravity didn't exist before newton. Before Newton, things fell down because things fell down. That's it. People believed that things fell down, so they did. There was no underlying mechanism. There was no reason for it. But people tried to find the reason that didn't exist, and in doing so created their own. Gravity simply happened to be the most successful, because it fit best with other things that people knew to be true.


The problem is that when people start believing those explanations, it has unforeseeable knock-on effects. There are logical consequences to any belief that might not be immediately obvious.
 
There are logical consequences to any belief that might not be immediately obvious.

Indeed.

If people start believing that the universe can be explained by mathematical laws, the universe will start working by mathematical laws.... even if the people who believed it didn't know the specifics of those laws.

But i guess my interpretation of consensual reality isn't popular, so i will left it there.
 
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No, it implies that the Etherites have basically completely infiltrated the Technocracy, as to force them to believe things that the Etherites want. If chaos theory was an Etherite plant in consensus that the Technocracy hates, what the oWoD would actually look like is a gigantic mass of scientists refuting chaos theory by saying it doesn't exist, it's an exaggeration, people who bring it up are just like the new-agey people who stick 'quantum' in front of some crystal name and claim it's supported by science.

Have you considered that maybe the technocracy doesn't control the consensus that well?

Like, you think that the technocracy can't rapidly introduce theoretical supertech to the masses, but they can gain complete and total control over science at a theoretical level?

The Technocracy defines everything in the mainstream scientific consensus.

Given it's cannon one of the traditions came up with Chaos Theory and Quantum mechanics IIRC, they obviously don't in cannon. Now, can you come up with a good reason why they should?
 
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Have you considered that maybe the technocracy doesn't control the consensus that well?

Like, you think that the technocracy can't rapidly introduce theoretical supertech to the masses, but they can gain complete and total control over science at a theoretical level?
The Technocracy's entire point is that they control the world from behind the scenes as an amalgam of ridiculous conspiracy theories; the idea that they don't have an extremely tight grip on the scientific community, which is their whole fucking thing and their means of forwarding the Time Table, is just flatly bizarre.
 
If we're talking canon, there's nothing that actually requires that the Etherites invented Quantum Mechanics after they left the Technocracy. Given that prototypical QM theories started emerging before the Etherites defected, and that the Technocracy tends to be decades ahead of the sleepers on these sorts of things anyways, it's entirely possible--even likely--that the Etherites came up with QM back when they were the Electrodyne Engineers and the Technocracy's physics division, and just claim it was a parting shot after the fact as a manner of self-aggrandizement.
 
Have you considered that maybe the technocracy doesn't control the consensus that well?

Indeed. They do not control the consensus as well as they wished.

Like, you think that the technocracy can't rapidly introduce theoretical supertech to the masses, but they can gain complete and total control over science at a theoretical level?

Your problem is that science is not the consensus. The technocracy controls science, but science does not control the consensus. Not entirely. So you get a lot of pseudo-scientific stuff in the consensus, enough that the consensus isn't entirely under technocrat control. Thus there is enough doubt to cause paradox backlash.
 
Your problem is that science is not the consensus. The technocracy controls science, but science does not control the consensus. Not entirely. So you get a lot of pseudo-scientific stuff in the consensus, enough that the consensus isn't entirely under technocrat control. Thus there is enough doubt to cause paradox backlash.

This.

Like, you think that the technocracy can't rapidly introduce theoretical supertech to the masses, but they can gain complete and total control over science at a theoretical level?

Yes? Because scientists and engineers are basically to the Technocracy what grogs and lay magicians are to the Hermetics. They're a captive audience who are indoctrinated into the Technocratic paradigm even if they aren't capable of applying it like the Technocrats do. They should, in fact, basically believe only what the Technocracy does. The Technocracy can't introduce theoretical supertech to the masses because the majority of the masses aren't scientists and aren't as heavily indoctrinated. They are a lot less immersed in what the Technocracy actually believes, and thus find its tools much less plausible.

Like... did you not see the path to introducing a new technology I wrote?

1. Not even Technocrats can use it, because the Arete 6+ Technocrats haven't decided it's valid.
2. Technocrats can use it, but it's vulgar.
3. The foundations of the rote are laid by some scientists who are enlightened Technocrats.
4. Scientists who are 'merely' hedge mages under the Technocratic paradigm can reproduce it. It's still vulgar here. They demonstrate examples to the public under specific conditions (i.e. inside constructs)
5. The mainstream science or engineering community accepts that these things might be possible. Now the effect is implausible instead of vulgar-it's still 'too advanced' but people might accept it can exist. At some point, after enough exposure, it becomes coincidental.
6. The mainstream science or engineering community creates a shitty version of it. This is still only useable by people heavily immersed in the Technocratic paradigm. Take a look at the earliest microcomputers and how user-unfriendly they were as an example. As it proliferates, it's now more of an 'exceptional device'-it works perfectly in Awakened hands but will generally fail in layman hands.
7. It becomes mass marketed to the sleepers. Sometimes, this is where an effect fails. The sleepers reject it and don't believe it works, the Technocracy goes back to the drawing board as to why it went wrong and find an in-paradigm reason why, which they start to correct (go back to step 4). If not...
8. Now the thing becomes an actual part of the overall consensus.

So 'total' control over what scientists think is and isn't possible only gets you past step 5. They then have to reproduce it, and not just in Technocratic facilities, and then they need to market it to the public. Those are just 2 steps, but those are the most complex ones.

And the Technocracy doesn't have total control over science. It can't tell all scientists what to believe all of the time. It just can make sure that reputable scientists don't write or believe what the Technocracy doesn't want it to commonly enough that it becomes part of overall scientific consensus. There's a pretty significant difference.

Given it's cannon one of the traditions came up with Chaos Theory and Quantum mechanics IIRC, they obviously don't in cannon. Now, can you come up with a good reason why they should?

The Virtual Adepts and Iteration X were using chaos theory before the VAs left the Technocracy, FYI. This is canon. And as to quantum mechanics, Sons of Ether Revised rips that right out and makes QM basically a consequence of removing ether from the equation by the Union. Such actual-factual retcons in the oWoD are fantastically rare and generally only happen when the writers think something is actively bad and wrong. So sure, it was canon, it's also been explicitly retconned and no longer is. Given how rare this actually is, I think it's evidence that the Mage writers didn't really like that idea.

So yes, I can come up with a good reason why they should. First, because it's actually canon that both of these are Technocratic inventions, second, because it makes the Technocratic paradigm actually "technology and science generations more advanced than the modern day" and the Technocracy actually believe their paradigm rather than making the Technocracy a group which doesn't actually believe in its own paradigm but pretends to because ???

Because the result of what you suggest is the Technocracy waking up one day and going "oh my god none of our predictions worked and all our science is wrong" except they have empirical proof that the science is actually correct, because their science works perfectly fine in lab conditions. And somehow, this idea that all their science is wrong fits in perfectly with the Technocratic paradigm but it's actually also a defeat for the Technocracy because it weakens their paradigm, despite the fact that this idea wasn't ever in the Technocratic paradigm which is all about a self-consistent, totally contained understanding of the world.

What you suggest is basically that the Technocrats are actually a group which doesn't actually care what the sleepers believe and don't believe in a self-consistent, one true view of the world, and only promote science insofar as it's useful to control sleepers with woo-words. At which point, you should just use nMage factions, because I just described the Seers of the Throne.

If we're talking canon, there's nothing that actually requires that the Etherites invented Quantum Mechanics after they left the Technocracy. Given that prototypical QM theories started emerging before the Etherites defected, and that the Technocracy tends to be decades ahead of the sleepers on these sorts of things anyways, it's entirely possible--even likely--that the Etherites came up with QM back when they were the Electrodyne Engineers and the Technocracy's physics division, and just claim it was a parting shot after the fact as a manner of self-aggrandizement.

The Technocracy Paradigm being "science, but way more advanced than the current day" is actually why QM being a Traditions plot is bad. It directly violates the Technocracy's continuity with the scientific paradigm (because they would have literally had to recover from the shock of tons of people being forced to encounter an explicit and overt contradiction between what they strongly believe and what they see, which needs to be justified and explained, then revise and rebuild basically all of Iteration X from scratch because all their shit stops working) for no good reason but to show the Etherites are ~so cool and awesome~ when the actual thing FBH wants-the idea that the Technocracy doesn't have full control over consensus and the Traditions can win victories-can be done in a way which doesn't directly violate what the Technocratic paradigm actually is and how it works.
 
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Gravity existed before Newton, mate. All phenomena is originated in the consensus first, then discovered.

Like, obviously people knew that shit falls back to the Earth before Newton. People knew that in real life before Newton too. But in oMage it's quite legitimately possible that the Law of Universal Gravitation did not exist before Newton made people think it existed.

At this point you're suggesting that consensus isn't actually consensus-it's not actually influenced by what sleepers believe, but rather some whims of a strange and changing universe. The Technocracy being possible at all requires things like relativity and the law of universal gravitation to not be things until after they become formal theories.

I have to point out that you're talking about Consensus, but for some reason keep bringing up an example that is explicitly something that was always true and doesn't give a flying damn about what petty mages do.
The gravitational constant is a Cosmological Constant in MtA, it is not subject to the beliefs of puny humanlings. Not only was it so before anyone could believe and disbelieve it, but it will also stay so until the end of times:

Cosmological Constants said:
Two additional forces contribute to static reality's
resilience. Both hamper a mage's ability to affect the world
around them, and they make her more fantastic castings
patently impossible in many cases. These bulwarks of
reality are referred to by a number of epithets in mage
circles, but they are more properly known as Historical
Inertia and Cosmological Constants.
[...]
Cosmological constants, on the other hand, are things
that have always been true and that can never be changed. No
mage, no matter how powerful, can rebuild Quintessence into
a totally different base of reality or change the gravitational
constant of the universe. It also bodes ill to dabble with either
the workings of the Metaphysic Trinity or the Curse of Caine.
Although no one is sure why, certain fundamentals of the
cosmos seem eternal. They seem to date back to the creation
of the world itself, serving as the immutable keystones of
reality. (What really counts as constant or not is up to the
needs of the individual Storyteller.)
It's a bit sad that gravity is the only big scientific instance of a Cosmological Constant that is enumerated in the book, but at least it sets a precedent for laws of physics that are immutable and can be discovered no matter what.
 
I have to point out that you're talking about Consensus, but for some reason keep bringing up an example that is explicitly something that was always true and doesn't give a flying damn about what petty mages do.
The gravitational constant is a Cosmological Constant in MtA, it is not subject to the beliefs of puny humanlings. Not only was it so before anyone could believe and disbelieve it, but it will also stay so until the end of times:

I have to point out that this is dumb shit and doesn't actually reflect the rest of the setting. The gravitational constant being that value means that relativity is, in fact, the one true model of the universe to rule them all, because that's why it's the number that it is. Similarly, it means that now quantum physics and the Planck units are true. If this is actually correct, the Technocracy, not the Traditions, are the ones who have the actually correct model of the universe. I know Phil Brucato said the Technocrats are winning because they're using the actual laws of physics in M20, but I believe this is a dumb statement made by Phil Brucato, because it is necessary for it to be a dumb statement by Phil Brucato and not actually true for the actual setting to exist.
 
I have to point out that this is dumb shit and doesn't actually reflect the rest of the setting. The gravitational constant being that value means that relativity is, in fact, the one true model of the universe to rule them all, because that's why it's the number that it is. Similarly, it means that now quantum physics and the Planck units are true. If this is actually correct, the Technocracy, not the Traditions, are the ones who have the actually correct model of the universe. I know Phil Brucato said the Technocrats are winning because they're using the actual laws of physics in M20, but I believe this is a dumb statement made by Phil Brucato, because it is necessary for it to be a dumb statement by Phil Brucato and not actually true for the actual setting to exist.
This is Revised, not M20.
Also, being right about gravity does not necessarily mean being right about everything else; this is in fact enforced by the point that other things may or may not be Cosmological Constants.
 
Moreover, the idea that gravity in Ascension is a "cosmological constant" is trivially falsifiable by the fact that it's not... uh, constant across the cosmos. Ooops. As soon as you bring up an umbral realm where there's no gravity (like, say, a Void Engineer tincan hab where they don't have the budget for artificial gravity generators) or even an umbral realm where gravity on Earth , you've discredited the idea that there always has to be gravity and it always has to be as strong as it is.

Literally, the moon disproves the idea that surface gravity being 1g is a cosmological constant.

Now, it'd be almost fucking impossible to change the Consensus with regards to Earth's surface gravity, because everyone intuitively knows - and therefore believes - how fast things should fall... but not impossible. Consider the use case where you kill almost the entire human population and then repopulate the planet with people who've spent their entire life in zero-g and who've never been told about gravity. That might well remove it as a concept.

Sure, it's an implausible thought experiment with several major implementation details, but there's no reason it shouldn't work.
 
Moreover, the idea that gravity in Ascension is a "cosmological constant" is trivially falsifiable by the fact that it's not... uh, constant across the cosmos. Ooops. As soon as you bring up an umbral realm where there's no gravity (like, say, a Void Engineer tincan hab where they don't have the budget for artificial gravity generators) or even an umbral realm where gravity on Earth , you've discredited the idea that there always has to be gravity and it always has to be as strong as it is.

Literally, the moon disproves the idea that surface gravity being 1g is a cosmological constant.

Now, it'd be almost fucking impossible to change the Consensus with regards to Earth's surface gravity, because everyone intuitively knows - and therefore believes - how fast things should fall... but not impossible. Consider the use case where you kill almost the entire human population and then repopulate the planet with people who've spent their entire life in zero-g and who've never been told about gravity. That might well remove it as a concept.

Sure, it's an implausible thought experiment with several major implementation details, but there's no reason it shouldn't work.
Umm, Moon's local gravity is less than Terra's is precisely because the gravitational constant is the same near both celestial bodies.
 
Moreover, the idea that gravity in Ascension is a "cosmological constant" is trivially falsifiable by the fact that it's not... uh, constant across the cosmos. Ooops. As soon as you bring up an umbral realm where there's no gravity (like, say, a Void Engineer tincan hab where they don't have the budget for artificial gravity generators) or even an umbral realm where gravity on Earth , you've discredited the idea that there always has to be gravity and it always has to be as strong as it is.

Literally, the moon disproves the idea that surface gravity being 1g is a cosmological constant.

Now, it'd be almost fucking impossible to change the Consensus with regards to Earth's surface gravity, because everyone intuitively knows - and therefore believes - how fast things should fall... but not impossible. Consider the use case where you kill almost the entire human population and then repopulate the planet with people who've spent their entire life in zero-g and who've never been told about gravity. That might well remove it as a concept.

Sure, it's an implausible thought experiment with several major implementation details, but there's no reason it shouldn't work.
... That's not what the Gravitational Constant is. The Gravitational constant is G, and is used in Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation. See here.
 
Moreover, the idea that gravity in Ascension is a "cosmological constant" is trivially falsifiable by the fact that it's not... uh, constant across the cosmos. Ooops. As soon as you bring up an umbral realm where there's no gravity (like, say, a Void Engineer tincan hab where they don't have the budget for artificial gravity generators) or even an umbral realm where gravity on Earth , you've discredited the idea that there always has to be gravity and it always has to be as strong as it is.

Literally, the moon disproves the idea that surface gravity being 1g is a cosmological constant.

Now, it'd be almost fucking impossible to change the Consensus with regards to Earth's surface gravity, because everyone intuitively knows - and therefore believes - how fast things should fall... but not impossible. Consider the use case where you kill almost the entire human population and then repopulate the planet with people who've spent their entire life in zero-g and who've never been told about gravity. That might well remove it as a concept.

Sure, it's an implausible thought experiment with several major implementation details, but there's no reason it shouldn't work.

Why are you being wilfully obtuse? Do you not know what the gravitational constant is?

Are you joking around?

EDIT: Whoops, looks like the post got edited. Never mind.

umbral realm where gravity on Earth , you've discredited the idea that

Where the gravity on Earth what?

Literally, the moon disproves the idea that surface gravity being 1g is a cosmological constant.

That's not how the gravitational constant works. The moon having less gravity is proof for the fact that gravity is a thing.

Now, it'd be almost fucking impossible to change the Consensus with regards to Earth's surface gravity, because everyone intuitively knows - and therefore believes - how fast things should fall...

Except they don't know because things fall at different rates in normal conditions. How would they know the speed of falling in a vaccum intuitively?
 
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