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White Wolf's World of Darkness

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hyzmarca said:
My computer doesn't have emotions, yet it can run Skyrim.

If you just want your agents to be video game NPCs, then cutting out their emotions and replacing them with scripts is perfectly fine.
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This getting into deep into technicalities, but long story short:
NPC scripts don't prioritize handling input from other (N)PCs based on management of attention nor anything else even remotely neural-networkish; they use certain (much more discrete) loops, conditions and states; so they can work fine without emotions.
(Alternatively, you can postulate neural-network AI NPCs who do use actual attention to manage perception, in which case one has to insist that they have at least rudimentary emotions. But there probably aren't such NPCs in modern games, and I'm not sure whether any of the modern non-gaming neural networks qualify already either. This is something that Virtual Adepts should be able to make with Mind/Data, though!)

WhatIf said:
The fluff text actually says: All Cyphers have a secondary computer brain surgically implanted within their skulls. To make room, parts of the frontal lobe and limbic system are removed—these regions merely deal with emotional control, expression, long-term plans and complex moral judgements.

and then it goes on about the circuitry and stuff.
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MJ12 Commando said:
Yes, and given that Iterators are not hyper-crazed disinhibited sexmurder machines like limbic system damage tends to do, the DEI has to actually emulate the replaced components to a degree. Book of Madness Revised implied that the weakness in DEIs is that they let ItX tell you right up-front "this is moral because we say so" and you'll agree that it's moral, which is definitely a flaw but certainly not to the degree of "EVERYONE IS AN EMOTIONALLY NEUTERED CYBORG."
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So, WW makes posts two stances whose conclusions can easily be mutually contradictory (depending on just what they meant) and kinda-sorta reconciles them elsewhere (probably). Not that I'm exactly surprised.

Does the 'the DEI has to actually emulate the replaced components to a degree' have any explicit supporting quote in the Mage books, or is it a fanon attempt to reconcile the contradictions?
 
vicky_molokh said:
So, WW makes posts two stances whose conclusions can easily be mutually contradictory (depending on just what they meant) and kinda-sorta reconciles them elsewhere (probably). Not that I'm exactly surprised.

Does the 'the DEI has to actually emulate the replaced components to a degree' have any explicit supporting quote in the Mage books, or is it a fanon attempt to reconcile the contradictions?
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Does "the DEI doesn't replace any of the functions of the human brain" have any explicit supporting quote in the Mage books, or is it a fanon attempt to create a contradiction and dismiss evidence? An equally valid question that you could ask, but you don't.

"The DEI replaces parts of the human brain, which it replaces to some degree" requires no contradiction between what is written. The stance you suggest is 'canon' requires that we assume that White Wolf: 1. Wanted Iteration X magi to be emotionless interchangeable cyborgs, 2. Despite this, did not ever once show Iteration X mages as emotionless cyborgs despite the fact that many of the NPCs in the 1E book were written as emotionless interchangeable cyborgs, so it's not like the authors thought it was anathema.

Like, I've just gone on and demonstrated from multiple sources that even in 1E and 2E, Iteration X was not written as universally made of emotionless cyborgs. In fact, for Iterators to be emotionless cyborgs, the DEI would have to emulate the replaced components, because otherwise far from being emotionless cyborgs with perfect computer memory, they would have the symptoms of people with limbic system damage and have severe learning disabilities, disinhibited behavior, and other mental illnesses nothing ever implies exists.

"But White Wolf doesn't know science!" you might say. Okay, whatever. At this point you're literally trying to find excuses to support one dumb sentence out of context that doesn't actually make the game any better for ~reasons~.
 
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MJ12 Commando said:
Does "the DEI doesn't replace any of the functions of the human brain" have any explicit supporting quote in the Mage books, or is it a fanon attempt to create a contradiction and dismiss evidence? An equally valid question that you could ask, but you don't.

"The DEI replaces parts of the human brain, which it replaces to some degree" requires no contradiction between what is written. The stance you suggest is 'canon' requires that we assume that White Wolf: 1. Wanted Iteration X magi to be emotionless interchangeable cyborgs, 2. Despite this, did not ever once show Iteration X as emotionless cyborgs despite the fact that many of the NPCs in the 1E book were written as emotionless interchangeable cyborgs, so it's not like the authors thought it was anathema.

Like, I've just gone on and demonstrated from multiple sources that even in 1E and 2E, Iteration X was not written as universally made of emotionless cyborgs. In fact, for Iterators to be emotionless cyborgs, the DEI would have to emulate the replaced components, because otherwise far from being emotionless cyborgs with perfect computer memory, they would have the symptoms of people with limbic system damage and have severe learning disabilities, disinhibited behavior, and other mental illnesses nothing ever implies exists.

"But White Wolf doesn't know science!" you might say. Okay, whatever. At this point you're literally trying to find excuses to support one dumb sentence out of context that doesn't actually make the game any better for ~reasons~.
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Nah, I'm not trying to support it, I'm trying to figure out. I tend to take statements such as "remove the thing that makes them human" to be very serious statements about the setting (because the primary purpose of words is carrying meanings), but sometimes authors do use such statements as an exaggeration or the like. If there are no indications that ItX operatives are 'drones' throughout the books, then it seems to me that the 'inhuman/emotionless' entry is the one that is either very badly phrased, or contradicts everything else. So White Wolf Doesn't Know Science is very well capable of supporting your position.
 
It's pretty clearly just inconsistent writing. The plain truth is that emotionless characters are super-boring to write about, so even if "Iteration X are emotionless cyborgs" was literal canon truth no one would write them accordingly because it would make all books about them flat and boring.

Doesn't change the fact that when a writer in the 90s writes a sentence like "To make room, parts of the frontal lobe and limbic system are removed—these regions merely deal with emotional control, expression, long-term plans and complex moral judgements." that sentence is blatantly a sarcastic statement that the people in question are crippling their emotional and moral faculties and think of it as 'mere' expendable aspects of themselves. I mean, it's just how things are written in that genre/style; you make half-sarcastic statements of how The Man is doing something horrible but think it's unimportant details and draw shock value from it.
 
WhatIf said:
The fluff text actually says: All Cyphers have a secondary computer brain surgically implanted within their skulls. To make room, parts of the frontal lobe and limbic system are removed—these regions merely deal with emotional control, expression, long-term plans and complex moral judgements.

and then it goes on about the circuitry and stuff.
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The guide to the Technocracy actually words it a little differently:

To improve their efficiency and enable them to be monitored, all Iteration X Cyphers are implanted with a microcomputer. This device, known as a Digital Enhancement Implant (DEI), is placed within the brain — specifically where the frontal lobe and limbic systems are located. Since these parts of the brain deal with nothing more than complex moral judgments, emotional control, personal expression, and long-term planning, Iteration X is willing to sacrifice them in its agents—it's a sacrifice made so they can better serve the Masses, after all. Those areas of the brain are removed in a complex operation which installs the DEI and related hardware.
 
How does the system handle stealth-attacks/stealth kills? Like, if you are behind someone and they don't notice and you have time to line up a shot with a gun or, you know, whatever else. How does that work mechanically? Would you just roll as normal (using either 1e or 2e rules) and just ignore Defense?

Does it reduce the penalty for things like headshots because you have time to actually aim whereas in a fight hitting the head is sorta...a dumb thing to try?
 
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The Laurent said:
How does the system handle stealth-attacks/stealth kills? Like, if you are behind someone and they don't notice and you have time to line up a shot with a gun or, you know, whatever else. How does that work mechanically? Would you just roll as normal (using either 1e or 2e rules) and just ignore Defense?
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Surprised characters lose their Defense. Having time to line up a shot is an Aiming bonus: +1 die per round, to a maximum of +3.

The 2e system does have "killing blows", for when you execute unconscious or paralysed opponents without rolling, but it's meant for removing opponents who are immobile, not sneaking up behind someone with a gun. At least with Surprise + Aim there's a slim chance they notice at the last second and duck.
 
The Laurent said:
How does the system handle stealth-attacks/stealth kills? Like, if you are behind someone and they don't notice and you have time to line up a shot with a gun or, you know, whatever else. How does that work mechanically? Would you just roll as normal (using either 1e or 2e rules) and just ignore Defense?

Does it reduce the penalty for things like headshots because you have time to actually aim whereas in a fight hitting the head is sorta...a dumb thing to try?
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Anything more only increase the problem of Mages doing that to you.
 
Omicron said:
It's pretty clearly just inconsistent writing. The plain truth is that emotionless characters are super-boring to write about, so even if "Iteration X are emotionless cyborgs" was literal canon truth no one would write them accordingly because it would make all books about them flat and boring.

Doesn't change the fact that when a writer in the 90s writes a sentence like "To make room, parts of the frontal lobe and limbic system are removed—these regions merely deal with emotional control, expression, long-term plans and complex moral judgements." that sentence is blatantly a sarcastic statement that the people in question are crippling their emotional and moral faculties and think of it as 'mere' expendable aspects of themselves. I mean, it's just how things are written in that genre/style; you make half-sarcastic statements of how The Man is doing something horrible but think it's unimportant details and draw shock value from it.
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That's probably the Doylist reason behind it, yeah, but if like MJ12 you're taking the text as-written, his position does seem pretty sound.
 
Aaron Peori said:
Well, yes. But sealing yourself in a room made of metal such that there is no chance of another person standing inside with you is a good protection from Obfuscate. But nothing protects from Correspondence but Correspondence.
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Well, "stabbing the guy trying to scry you in the dick" is also good protection against Correspondence, but requires you be able to find whoever it is and stab them in the dick.
 
Few quick questions:

a) A few implants say they allow humans to soak agg. Is that with their full Stamina, or just with the armor provided by the implant? Some of those don't actually have listed armor bonuses, which is something of a giveaway, but I want to check. Similarly the lethal soak provided by, say, exomuscle.

b) Plasma cannon says its Arete is 4/6 and then later says it's 6/8, and either way its background cost is oddly low when everything else is double Arete. My instinct is leaning towards using the first set of stats anyway, though I'll buy a lowish background cost since it's not doing anything really special.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
Few quick questions:

a) A few implants say they allow humans to soak agg. Is that with their full Stamina, or just with the armor provided by the implant? Some of those don't actually have listed armor bonuses, which is something of a giveaway, but I want to check. Similarly the lethal soak provided by, say, exomuscle.

b) Plasma cannon says its Arete is 4/6 and then later says it's 6/8, and either way its background cost is oddly low when everything else is double Arete. My instinct is leaning towards using the first set of stats anyway, though I'll buy a lowish background cost since it's not doing anything really special.
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A)Soag agg with stamina in that case , armor always allows you to soak agg after all

b) Remember it is a force effect meaning that it deals +1 and agrevated damage.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
Few quick questions:

a) A few implants say they allow humans to soak agg. Is that with their full Stamina, or just with the armor provided by the implant? Some of those don't actually have listed armor bonuses, which is something of a giveaway, but I want to check. Similarly the lethal soak provided by, say, exomuscle.
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Armor protects against aggravated damage by default. If something allows you to soak aggravated damage, that's with full Stamina.

b) Plasma cannon says its Arete is 4/6 and then later says it's 6/8, and either way its background cost is oddly low when everything else is double Arete. My instinct is leaning towards using the first set of stats anyway, though I'll buy a lowish background cost since it's not doing anything really special.
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Your instincts are wrong, because almost all direct damage effects are hugely overpriced. The second set of stats at least makes it somewhat worthwhile to use a plasma cannon at some point in time.
 
On the subject of enhancements that allow humans to soak agg, would that also allow them to soak lethal? I'm curious because it was something my GM and I puzzled over a little bit while building my Void Engineer, and we found it interesting that Physical Structure Enhancement specifically notes aggravated damage and doesn't seem to say anything about lethal. Does lethal just go through as normal, or is it noted somewhere that anything that would allow a character to soak agg with Stamina also allows them to soak lethal?
 
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