White Wolf's World of Darkness
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
It doesn't, in part because of the inherent lag a forum post style approach causes, and in part because it stop a game if you have to ask permission before every action.
If I was going to run a mage game, I would probably go about it by creating three open Google Docs. One for in character, one for out of character, and one for negocating magical effects. Then I would run it like a chat game.
In character could easily be kept consistent because you (and admittedly everyone else, but you can't run a game without a modicum of trust) can go back and edit the 'past' just like you can at the game table, where two character both go after the same thing at the same time, and then quickly talk out what actually happened so that confusion doesn't set in.
Out of character, it's actually a surprisingly nice chat format. You can see what people are posting in real time as they post.
For magic, you need to keep it separate or else it will eat the OOC thread whenever it comes up. But it also means you have a clear record of all past decisions right there, easy for anyone to see and review.
Edit:
It's like they wanted to add low key heretical technocrats in a war agaisnt the Technocracy to the nWoD. Only without the hope, or any hint of a endgame. It's quite possibly the most fundamentally hopeless, aimless game White Wolf has ever made. There's a bunch of interesting things you can harvest from it, but taken as a whole its... flawed.
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Eukie
Powered by furious Canadian redheads
I believe the quickest way to illustrate this is in what it tries to do. Much like Changeling is a game about playing an abuse victim and Vampire is about playing a neo-feudal sex criminals in organized crime, Demon wanted to be a game about playing a spy. To emulate the crushing cold sense of mistrust and double-dealings of The Spy Who Came In From The Cold and similar spy novels, it suggests that you face off against the incomprehensible. One example actually given in the rulebook was for the players to investigate and eventually shut down a family restaurant run by a God-Machine agent. The purpose of the restaurant was to provide the God-Machine with lettuce.
Why does the God-Machine need lettuce? You're not supposed to know. What happens if we don't stop the God-Machine from getting lettuce? You're not supposed to know. Is it important to stop the God-Machine from getting lettuce? You're not supposed to know. Will things actually end up worse if we try to stop the God-Machine from getting lettuce? You're not supposed to know.
The game encourages the ST to make scenarios where the players have no concept of the reason for why they're doing things, or of the consequences of their actions. This is terrible for a game about playing spies, because it's neither fun nor interesting. It becomes an exercise in doing pointless things for no reason. GURPS: Espionage, and excellent-if-dated book on how to run spy games, points out that this is a really stupid thing to do. While secrecy, mysterious orders, and duplicitous missions with hidden intentions are important to the spy genre, the players must never be left feeling that their actions and choices have no meaning, because that's no fun.
It was just one of those things that stood out to me when I skimmed the public text-only release; it was a game about playing spies that actively encouraged doing exactly what my favourite book about playing spies had said not to do.
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TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
That actually ties into a deeper problem that's habitual of White Wolf at this point, which is that the endgame is so distant that you can't really see the steps towards achieving it, or even really have a clear idea of what those steps would look like or how they would impact the game world. They sort of moved away from this a bit with the nWoD, though they did it by shrinking goals down to purely personal levels.
Promethean really benefited from that kind of focus, and I think it remains one of the strongest games they've ever made. nMage suffered the worst, turning everyone into selfish self-involved gnostics denying the world rather then engaging with its problems. The Banishers really did have a point, though they're hypocritical enough on the whole to not be sympathetic. Changeling was sort of middle of the road; it wasn't a story about big stories, really. You're trying to get back to your life, or a close enough facsimile to feel like you own yourself again. It didn't really have a positive endgame, you would never make yourself safe from the Gentry without becoming one of them, defeating the purpose of your escape, but all the time you spend managing to resist is meaningful within the context of the game.
But whenever they try to do grand conflict, it always runs into the problem that they make their setting unfriendly to winning, while losing isn't usually dramatic, it basically means a continuation of a downhill tread towards... something bad, but not in any loud dramatic sense. In the old World of Darkness you could see what that something bad was, in the new, you usually can't.
It's sort of ironic, because they actually have done exactly that kind of conflict well, in Orpheus. Consequences were clear, victory conditions up to the end were clear, losing could be dramatic, but outside the endgame recoverable. In fact, it assumed several loses, but then left contingencies open for players to succeed. It's somewhat railroaded, but mostly in the sense that the big things were already in motion before the players ever started.
The main problem with that is always finding the poor fool that is running that thing.
Which is not me even if I add my name to the number of possible players,
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
I'll think about it. I would prefer to play over run, and I don't have an idea for a plot. A Co-ST to bounce ideas off of would also make me a lot more willing to do it.
If I do run a game, it's going to be a real-time game. I'm going to want a commitment from people to show up at a certain time, several times a week, and a greater commitment from my co-ST to show up other times so that we can work through what needs to happen.
Edit: Actually, I do have a long term plot that could work, though it would need a lot of middle details to work through.
It would be a Traditions game, though Technocratic defectors and Crafts would work fine. While there would be violence, the issues I'm thinking of aren't the kind you can punch out, though if everyone makes fighters I could change that I suppose.
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- Location
- Italy
I'm always fascinated, yet off-put, by how passionate people get when discussing Ascension, because I'm one of the rare few that after reading the corebooks of both oMage (Revised) and nMage, thought "Sounds terrible" about the former and "Awesome, I want to play this!" about the latter.
Anyways, since right now my budget permits me to indulge my need for Mage books, I'm curious if anyone has any recommendations on which ones to get from drivethrough. I can afford 3, maybe 4 books, so I was thinking which supplements I should go for? I already have a Ruined Temple as a physical copy though.
I was thinking the order books, but is there anything else that's a must have, especially for me, the ST?
Anyways, since right now my budget permits me to indulge my need for Mage books, I'm curious if anyone has any recommendations on which ones to get from drivethrough. I can afford 3, maybe 4 books, so I was thinking which supplements I should go for? I already have a Ruined Temple as a physical copy though.
I was thinking the order books, but is there anything else that's a must have, especially for me, the ST?
Tome of the Mysteries is probably the best supplement for nMage, with Intruders - Encounters with the Abyss being second-best (though only if you plan on using Abyssals a lot).
Astral Realms is excellent, as is Intruders: Encounters with the Abyss. The latter is in fact also a guide to writing horror, while the former managed what oMage failed and provided tools for mechanically changing widescale beliefs by large scale action (in this case, by going into the collective unconsciousness and carrying out widescale actions which thematically change the collective belief). Intruders is probably my most-recommended book in the line.
Of the Order Books, Guardians of the Veil, Seers of the Throne and Silver Ladder are excellent. Mysterium is good. Arrow is okay. The Free Council book is dross. I'm very fond of Banishers, but large amounts of it and its mechanics are really bad, like the spells written by someone who clearly didn't get how nMage spells were different from oMage spells and how it's not appropriate to make a Spirit spell for getting into space. Also, the Chargen rules are as broken as fuck. If you get Banishers, never let anyone use those chargen rules.
Mind you, the Free Council have all kinds of problems, which is why I would recommend scrapping them entirely and then using the rules for Nameless Orders from Left Hand Path which is another excellent book. Nameless Orders are basically - in Hunter Terms - Tier 2 Mage groups, and thus actually manage to do the Free Council thing a lot better than the Free Council. The rest of Left Hand Path is also really good and evocative - Scelesti, Nephandi (the two terms are not synonymous), Abyssal Magic, the Mad, and the Tremere (who get deepened out to basically become a soul-eating mystery cult who are also the soul-eating Mafia who try to eat the souls of other soul-eating Legacies and internalise them, twisting their own Legacy).
- Location
- Italy
So, with two recommendations, Intruders is a certainty (it's apparently also currently at a discount on Drivethru, so even better).
Hmm, Astral Realms sounds interesting, and the simple concept of the Temenos, even with it's sparse description in the core, always fascinated me, but if I do take it I'm going to have to decide on two other books.
I'm thinking either one Pentacle order book, either Guardians or Ladder, and then the Seers, to have a better look at another antagonist, beside the horrors of unreality of the Abyss.
Of those two orders, which one really needs it's sourcebook to be better understood?
Hmm, Astral Realms sounds interesting, and the simple concept of the Temenos, even with it's sparse description in the core, always fascinated me, but if I do take it I'm going to have to decide on two other books.
I'm thinking either one Pentacle order book, either Guardians or Ladder, and then the Seers, to have a better look at another antagonist, beside the horrors of unreality of the Abyss.
Of those two orders, which one really needs it's sourcebook to be better understood?
Guardians of the Veil. It reframes them - they're not just the "secret police", they're a messianic cult waiting for their Messiah to come and save the flawed imperfect souls of the Fallen World. And until their messiah comes and forgives them their sins (and the messiah will not be a Guardian of the Veil - they're the sin-eaters of the Pentacle, whose duties are to commit the wrong deeds so the other Awakened remain pure) they must watch out for false prophets and false kings who will lead the Awakened into destruction due to their flawed souls. And they must act to keep magic pure and untainted by the Abyss, so that the world does not end before the Messiah comes.
Sin is wrong. No one should do it. But if it has be done, it should be a Guardian so the hands of others may remain clean. Better a few take on the burden so that the many be spared. Their messiah will forgive them.
(pretty much all the nMage Orders have some pretty... extreme beliefs for the really devoted followers.)
- Location
- Italy
Well then, thank you, I'm sold on the Guardian book.
I have to admit, the bit from their corebook writeup that always stuck with me was how, despite the stereotypes of the sociopath and the amoral spy they are often saddled with, Guardians actually tend to be actually strongly moral, and it's actually one of the requisites to pass their initiations.
Now, I'm off to make my purchases. Maybe I'll give my reactions later, after I've read them. Thanks again both to ES and tq343.
I have to admit, the bit from their corebook writeup that always stuck with me was how, despite the stereotypes of the sociopath and the amoral spy they are often saddled with, Guardians actually tend to be actually strongly moral, and it's actually one of the requisites to pass their initiations.
Now, I'm off to make my purchases. Maybe I'll give my reactions later, after I've read them. Thanks again both to ES and tq343.
If you get nothing else get Tome of the Mysteries. It is THE Mage book. I know many would call it the missing half of the core book. It goes in depth with the arcana and what each dot level means. Makes it so much easier to come up with new spells. Plus it gives a bunch of fluff bits like what magic looks/feels/ect to use.
You have to be wary with it.
There are really, really dumb bits in it. Like the essay in Wisdom, which is incredibly dumb - and its placement of making zombies as a major Wisdom sin with no justification beyond 'it's icky' is terrible and hits Death with a major nerf to one of the reasons people wanted it. Likewise, quite a few of its spells are quite bad, like the one which is Death 4, Prime 2 to... let other people see ghosts. Rather than... uh, Death 2.
Some of the book is bad yes, but the chapter on the practices is the important bit. You could cut most of the rest of the book and I'd still be happy with it.
"Basically everything that makes your life suck less than that of a fifteenth century peasant is actually the product of a shadow tyranny, do you side with said shadow tyranny or with the similarly morally ambiguous resistance?" does sound a lot more interesting to me than "fuck the Man!"
Drakeneisen
Rogue Scientist
The argument is not that the Old World of Darkness lines don't cross over in their books, it's that they probably shoudn't, and that canon arguments in OWoD mean very little.
This is part of a larger issue with all the OWoD lines: you have to decide what parts of the books you're using and what parts you are ignoring. Some bits of the OWoD books are generally good (e.g. the Umbra book in OMage, the Chicago campaign in Vampire, or most of Wraith) and some bits are generally bad (e.g. True Secrets of the Black Hand, Pentex, the Tzimisce clanbook). The trick to playing any of these games is to realize that they are, in fact, games, and that the purpose of games is to have fun. If a given setting element would make your game more fun, then use it. If it would make your game worse, then don't. Don't worry about what the authorial intent was, because there's a good chance that there wasn't one.
Most of the OWoD supplements were written by freelancers, and even after WW decided that they needed a central developer for each line, the editorial control was... spotty. To use the example of Mage, some of the people writing Mage: The Ascension books agreed with MJ12, some of them agreed with TheLastOne, some of them had their own, separate ideas, some of them had no ideas, and some of them were on alot of drugs. Thus, the canon frequently disagrees with the canon and arguments about what is canon become nonsensical.
You as the Storyteller can decide what you want to be true for your game. If you think that having the Technocracy be Orwellian Captain Planet villains works for your game, then do that. If it would be better for your campaign to have them be well-meaning but flawed then have that be true. This has the salutary benefit that the players wont necessarily know how evil the Technocracy is (which they definitely shouldn't, especially if you are running a Technocracy game).
MJ12's Panopticon Quest is fairly clear evidence that you can run a great game of OMage with a "Good Technocracy", so that's an idea worth thinking about. The "Evil Technocracy" shows up (with bells on) as the Outer Church in Grant Morrisons Invisibles, which is the illustrated story of a fantastic Traditions game, so it can work too. Consider what you want to run and what your players want to play, and then use that. The game line is big enough and diverse enough to support basically anything you want to do. Shine on, you crazy diamond.
"Good" is putting it... uh, rather strongly, to say the least. The most common antagonist for the party which is, on average [1], probably no worse people than your average Traditions party is "other Technocrats". Most games with heroic Technocrats are probably going to spend about as much time dealing with internal Technocracy intrigue and balancing the anti-Pogromite factions (who believe in soft power) and the pro-Pogromite factions (who believe that werewolves and vampires have it coming as much as the faith healers do).
(Traditionalist mages are waaaaaaay down the list of things that have made trouble for the party in PQ, after things like "werewolves", "vampires", and "the extradimensional posthuman mockeries of your own organisation's sins".)
[1] Obviously Jamelia brings the average down, but Rose somewhat compensates for her.
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
Ok, I actually think I have the outlines of a reasonable interesting idea, but I'm sort of wanting to switch systems. Both because old World of Darkness had a horrible system, and because my idea fuses over with another setting - the Paragons campaign from Mutants and Masterminds. I'm not requiring familiarity with it, and ignorance might actually be better for me. Also, it's pretty modular.
People will be able to play either a Mage or a Paragon(which is basically a superhero, though Paragons are pretty varied). Mages get more points to build potent general abilities, Paragons have a higher PL cap letting them be more powerful, if limited.
After some thought, I'm lifting the restriction of Technocrats - you can be either, though you'll need to be exceptionally liberal one. The chaos of, "suddenly superheroes!" can mean some level of extraordinary action will be accepted, and if your character is a fast talker that might include working with superstitionalist. It will be a real disadvantage though. Of course, no one else is dealing with it any better, because the whole thing doesn't seem to make sense and seemed to come out of nowhere.
We can work out what hours are good, but weekends are mostly off-the-table, because that's when my due dates are, and I'm not going to commit when I might need to burn the midnight oil for school.
I'm would like to know who is interested. If enough show interest I'll create a thread. Still looking for a co-gm.
People will be able to play either a Mage or a Paragon(which is basically a superhero, though Paragons are pretty varied). Mages get more points to build potent general abilities, Paragons have a higher PL cap letting them be more powerful, if limited.
After some thought, I'm lifting the restriction of Technocrats - you can be either, though you'll need to be exceptionally liberal one. The chaos of, "suddenly superheroes!" can mean some level of extraordinary action will be accepted, and if your character is a fast talker that might include working with superstitionalist. It will be a real disadvantage though. Of course, no one else is dealing with it any better, because the whole thing doesn't seem to make sense and seemed to come out of nowhere.
We can work out what hours are good, but weekends are mostly off-the-table, because that's when my due dates are, and I'm not going to commit when I might need to burn the midnight oil for school.
I'm would like to know who is interested. If enough show interest I'll create a thread. Still looking for a co-gm.
- Location
- Italy
So, I'm about halfway through Guardians of the Veil.
Loved the Mastigos Awakening depicted on the prologue fiction, way better than Arctos' story from the core's introduction.
The bits of history of the order in the first chapter, both mytical and real, were nice, though I would have liked something a bit more substansial.
But then Chapter 2. Man, The Esoteric Tenets are insane. And I love 'em. I have to thank you again ES. Reading about the Diamond Wheel, the hierarchy of souls, their undermining of the Awakened and the coming of the Hieromagus really does re-define the Guardians, making them go beyond the organisation of "moral" assassins into, well a religion.
I'm really excited about Seers of the Throne, if it's even half as good as this.
Now then, off to finish this.
Loved the Mastigos Awakening depicted on the prologue fiction, way better than Arctos' story from the core's introduction.
The bits of history of the order in the first chapter, both mytical and real, were nice, though I would have liked something a bit more substansial.
But then Chapter 2. Man, The Esoteric Tenets are insane. And I love 'em. I have to thank you again ES. Reading about the Diamond Wheel, the hierarchy of souls, their undermining of the Awakened and the coming of the Hieromagus really does re-define the Guardians, making them go beyond the organisation of "moral" assassins into, well a religion.
I'm really excited about Seers of the Throne, if it's even half as good as this.
Now then, off to finish this.
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greensun
You shall all burn beneath my light!!!
Okay, I just got Damnation City and it is beautiful.
I love it! Its not just useful for WoD, but for general storytelling as well; it gives you so many different ideas for a gothic city and the way it would look and feel. In all honesty I'd recommend it to anyone who wants to write about decaying urban environment.
I love it! Its not just useful for WoD, but for general storytelling as well; it gives you so many different ideas for a gothic city and the way it would look and feel. In all honesty I'd recommend it to anyone who wants to write about decaying urban environment.
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
Agreed. With a little finagling most of it is useful for any occult underground game.
greensun
You shall all burn beneath my light!!!
Yeah, you an use it for just about anything when you think about it!
Exalted Modern would benefit greatly from it, especially for Infernal and Abyssal Games, Chutulu Tech also benefits from it if you're playing a more espionage and horror focused game. Fiction writers can have a read of it for hints and tips for more evocative writing.
Acatalepsy
Firewall Proxy
- Location
- The Diamond Age
Okay, so I've got an oMage character, who is a dual tradition Akashic Sister / Virtual Adept. She's Arete 3, with Sphere at Correspondence 3, Forces 2, Entropy 1, Mind 1. We're planning an ambush for a Technocrat with unknown sphere, but probably has access to some Forces and Time. Last time we met she was throwing 9+ dice at me in close quarters, and has some kind of capture net-thing (Forces?).
I need rotes, spells, enchantments and other things to allow myself to stand toe-to-toe with this person in close quarters and beat the snot out of them. I do not need people telling me that I probably shouldn't, because I've already figured that out, thanks.
I need rotes, spells, enchantments and other things to allow myself to stand toe-to-toe with this person in close quarters and beat the snot out of them. I do not need people telling me that I probably shouldn't, because I've already figured that out, thanks.
Someone to Time 2 protect you from their Time 2 precog warning them of the ambush.
Preferably, someone to Entropy 2 protect you from any Entropy sense they have warning them of when they're weak, vulnerable, or facing danger.
...
Okay, so, once that's out of the way.
Plant jammers around the area to turn on and throw up an EM jamming field to stop the Technocrat calling for backup or hitting a Shockwave code or something (Corr 3, Forces 2 Ban/Ward against EM signals and Correspondence leaving the area).
Focus on your training. Feel the oneness with the world. Look for weak spots and move your body to where they are (Corr 1, Entropy 1, enhancing mundane attacks to remove called shot penalties). And then break all their fingers so they can't throw a net or hold a gun. Remember! Most mages find broken fingers make it pretty fucking hard to cast.
Reach out. Feel the flows of kinetic energy in the world around you. Focus your chi, and carry out your carefully calculated movements which alter its flow. Now there's a chaotic factor around you which will make it harder to hit you (Forces 2 shielding, likely vulgar if you get too much armour from it).