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White Wolf's World of Darkness

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The Laurent said:
It's all very thematic.

The starting time would probably be influenced by the choices they make, to get good and dark themes. Like being something Ventrueish in the American south at the start of the civil war, making slaves of men. Or etc, etc.
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I'd prefer the 80s, personally. Very superficial. Very greedy. There's so much neon that you don't know the sun went down. Vampirism as drug metaphor. Hookers, Blow, and Blood. Crocket and Tubbs are wearing there fancy suits. Michael Jackson probably isn't a vampire, but you never know.
 
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hyzmarca said:
I'd prefer the 80s, personally. Very superficial. Very greedy. There's so much neon that you don't know the sun went down. Vampirism as drug metaphor. Hookers, Blow, and Blood. Crocket and Tubbs are wearing there fancy suits. Michael Jackson probably isn't a vampire, but you never know.
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And there's a whole sourcebook you can mine for ideas, though I've no idea if it's any good.
New Wave Requiem blurb said:
Do you remember the 80s? Not that bubble-gum garbage you see on those so-called "music networks," but the real 80s? World War III was always on the horizon while sex, drugs and money flowed like a river of blood right to us. Vampires were everywhere. The Masquerade was at its thinnest point, but we didn't care because the world was ours. We kept playing our games, doing our dance, but everyone was afraid that one AIDS-ridden blood doll with a grudge or one neonate with a personal computer and a private investor would decide someday to pull the trigger and make the world burn.

Those were good times.

— Robyn Sloane, Circle of the Crone
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hyzmarca said:
I'd prefer the 80s, personally. Very superficial. Very greedy. There's so much neon that you don't know the sun went down. Vampirism as drug metaphor. Hookers, Blow, and Blood. Crocket and Tubbs are wearing there fancy suits. Michael Jackson probably isn't a vampire, but you never know.
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I played in one of these once. The LARP imploded before it could go very far, but there were 3 Brujah who set up shop in town and were the Prince's go to guys for fixing problems.

Need a potential Masquerade breach covered up / taken care of? They would take care of it.

Drug dealers getting uppity? Brujah got your back.

Hunters in town? Brujahs got a place to get rid of bodies.

I'm like 90% positive they were literally just waiting for the local elders to poke their heads up (none of them attended court, just hid all the time) before throwing the molotovs.
 
Aleph said:
Broken Soul Wisdom
"... curing any of these derangements imposes a special Training effect on the patient, forcing her to pay back the free experience gained from her madness."
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but as I understand it, the derangements don't give XP, but instead lower the cost of traits, to zero if necessary, so the XP debt from removing the earlier instances of the derangements won't do anything to stop you from using it again. Now, that may be bad RAW, that no decent ST would allow, but you seem to be implying the rules actually say something different, and I'd like to see that explained if you are.
 
beowolf said:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but as I understand it, the derangements don't give XP, but instead lower the cost of traits, to zero if necessary, so the XP debt from removing the earlier instances of the derangements won't do anything to stop you from using it again. Now, that may be bad RAW, that no decent ST would allow, but you seem to be implying the rules actually say something different, and I'd like to see that explained if you are.
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It's generally understood that you can't benefit from Training Charms if you're in xp debt.
 
The Laurent said:
Basically, if I did it, it'd be probably be almost too bleak.
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Damn you! Now I can't get Vampire out of my head and want to run a Requiem Quest. Or an Awakening Quest... or a C:tL quest...
What I'm saying is that I want to run another nWoD quest. But man is it hard to figure out which one to run....
 
Aleph said:
It's generally understood that you can't benefit from Training Charms if you're in xp debt.
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Yes, which is, again, why I focused on this one. The Training effect happens when the Charm is countered, after it's already gone off, in the same way repurchases of Infernal Excellencies happen if manage to accumulate enough XP to raise your Essence while still in XP debt despite the debt stealing half your XP. The Charm is not itself a Training Charm, it's a Desecration Charm that has a later training effect. Please explain how I'm misinterpreting this, because I don't see any other way to see what it's saying, and always liked the Charm because I realized this immediately upon reading it the first time.
 
beowolf said:
Yes, which is, again, why I focused on this one. The Training effect happens when the Charm is countered, after it's already gone off, in the same way repurchases of Infernal Excellencies happen if manage to accumulate enough XP to raise your Essence while still in XP debt despite the debt stealing half your XP. The Charm is not itself a Training Charm, it's a Desecration Charm that has a later training effect. Please explain how I'm misinterpreting this, because I don't see any other way to see what it's saying, and always liked the Charm because I realized this immediately upon reading it the first time.
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... if you're saying "what happens if you don't cure the derangements and just stack them on top of each other endlessly to discount every possible Charm and trait to 0", then my answer would be "the Scourge spends all their time gibbering catatonically and is so utterly incapable of dealing with reality that it would probably be kinder to kill them and release their Exaltation to the next wielder".

If you're not saying that, I'm not sure what you are saying and so we should take it to PMs to sort it out.
 
beowolf said:
Yes, which is, again, why I focused on this one. The Training effect happens when the Charm is countered, after it's already gone off, in the same way repurchases of Infernal Excellencies happen if manage to accumulate enough XP to raise your Essence while still in XP debt despite the debt stealing half your XP. The Charm is not itself a Training Charm, it's a Desecration Charm that has a later training effect. Please explain how I'm misinterpreting this, because I don't see any other way to see what it's saying, and always liked the Charm because I realized this immediately upon reading it the first time.
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Infernal manual, page 103, second column, half way down the page in the section on Desecration Charms:

Any positive mutations permanently imposed on a character are considered a Training effect costing (mutation points x 2) experience points.


So, yeah. all Desecration charms work by a training effect and all the rules for that apply.

EDIT:

wait, no. that isn't a normal Desecration charm. that... Huh. ok that's a weird charm, but it still says right in the charm that curing the mutations means paying back the XP debt. I guess you could try applying enough derangements to be insane enough to pull off what you're saying, but by the time your done, your character would be so un-playably insane that most GMs would take him out of your control. for that matter, I don't think most would let you get away with gaming the system like that, and would force you to keep suffering the effects of the insanity until you pay the debt back.
 
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As @Aleph notes, the Magician's bargain is a bad one. that route leads to the ST taking away your sheet and telling you your scourge is now an NPC.
 
Xyzarach said:
Infernal manual, page 103, second column, half way down the page in the section on Desecration Charms:

Any positive mutations permanently imposed on a character are considered a Training effect costing (mutation points x 2) experience points.


So, yeah. all Desecration charms work by a training effect and all the rules for that apply.
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Derangements are negative mutations, the Charm applies a discount to non mutations that you then buy normally, including all training time.
 
Chloe Sullivan said:
As @Aleph notes, the Magician's bargain is a bad one. that route leads to the ST taking away your sheet and telling you your scourge is now an NPC.
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Sorry for the double post, but if I edited my previous one you wouldn't be alerted.
Yes, this is OP, and would not be allowed in an actual game, which is why I've never talked about this in the Exalted Thread. However, we're talking about dropping an Exalt in thd oWOD, and while the theoretical ones used in most VS debates are stupid, I'm deliberately using the strongest possible effect and build I know of that can be obtained within a few years of training as an example to see if an single Exalt could possibly make a noticeable change to that setting as a whole.
 
beowolf said:
Sorry for the double post, but if I edited my previous one you wouldn't be alerted.
Yes, this is OP, and would not be allowed in an actual game, which is why I've never talked about this in the Exalted Thread. However, we're talking about dropping an Exalt in thd oWOD, and while the theoretical ones used in most VS debates are stupid, I'm deliberately using the strongest possible effect and build I know of that can be obtained within a few years of training as an example to see if an single Exalt could possibly make a noticeable change to that setting as a whole.
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So it's not an effect which exists in the setting because it's a stupid exploitative reading which takes advantage of some weak keywording. And it's not a thing you'd ever allow in a real game.

So why the fuck would you bring this up? It's just stupid.
 
beowolf said:
to see if an single Exalt could possibly make a noticeable change to that setting as a whole.
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"Noticeable change" is a pretty ill-defined marker, but even with that, I'd still come down on "rapidly comes to the attention of the Technocracy, gets shunted off Earth and into the Deep Umbra to run around murdering spirits, dies, or some combination of the three in approximately that order".

Edit: Actually, honestly, I'm gonna go with "pick at least two".
 
EarthScorpion said:
So it's not an effect which exists in the setting because it's a stupid exploitative reading which takes advantage of some weak keywording. And it's not a thing you'd ever allow in a real game.

So why the fuck would you bring this up? It's just stupid.
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It's certainly thematically appropriate for a hero to go through a period of transformative madness and eventually regain his sanity while retaining all of the power and knowledge that his madness gave him.

It's an exploit that could be played well, in the sense that it's harrowing and dangerous even if you do it right and potentially very compelling.
 
AshenFox said:
Damn you! Now I can't get Vampire out of my head and want to run a Requiem Quest. Or an Awakening Quest... or a C:tL quest...
What I'm saying is that I want to run another nWoD quest. But man is it hard to figure out which one to run....
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I'd like to do an Masquerade Game where the PCs start out as Caitiffs are sired by the same person and dumped in a warehouse together with nothing but a note explaining their condition and a vinculum, imposed on them while they were still unconscious, to keep them together. All of the information that could give clues of about the nature of their mutual sire is hidden. They don't know their Generation. I'd keep track of their blood pools.

Of course, they letter that their sire left would explain that all the other vampires probably want them dead, the Cam because they're fledglings without anyone to vouch for them, the Sabbat just because, and everyone for reasons having to do with the identity of their sire.

The punchline, of course, if they do some experimenting to determine their blood pool limits, or if they encounter someone who can read their Generation, is that their Generation is 2.

Which is the sort of thing that makes every vampire organization in the world want to kill them, or worship them, or both. Not to mention that sweet generation reduction that a vampire would get from eating them.

The goal, of course, would be to see how long they'd be able to survive, and how well they'd be able to carve out a niche in vampire society.
 
hyzmarca said:
I'd like to do an Masquerade Game where the PCs start out as Caitiffs are sired by the same person and dumped in a warehouse together with nothing but a note explaining their condition and a vinculum, imposed on them while they were still unconscious, to keep them together. All of the information that could give clues of about the nature of their mutual sire is hidden. They don't know their Generation. I'd keep track of their blood pools.

Of course, they letter that their sire left would explain that all the other vampires probably want them dead, the Cam because they're fledglings without anyone to vouch for them, the Sabbat just because, and everyone for reasons having to do with the identity of their sire.

The punchline, of course, if they do some experimenting to determine their blood pool limits, or if they encounter someone who can read their Generation, is that their Generation is 2.

Which is the sort of thing that makes every vampire organization in the world want to kill them, or worship them, or both. Not to mention that sweet generation reduction that a vampire would get from eating them.

The goal, of course, would be to see how long they'd be able to survive, and how well they'd be able to carve out a niche in vampire society.
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:O

I. I would say more, but honestly I'm just. Wishing that there was a :jawdrop: like option.

Just. Poor schmucks. Caine is apparently a bit of a troll at his age.
 
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hyzmarca said:
I'd like to do an Masquerade Game where the PCs start out as Caitiffs are sired by the same person and dumped in a warehouse together with nothing but a note explaining their condition and a vinculum, imposed on them while they were still unconscious, to keep them together. All of the information that could give clues of about the nature of their mutual sire is hidden. They don't know their Generation. I'd keep track of their blood pools.

Of course, they letter that their sire left would explain that all the other vampires probably want them dead, the Cam because they're fledglings without anyone to vouch for them, the Sabbat just because, and everyone for reasons having to do with the identity of their sire.

The punchline, of course, if they do some experimenting to determine their blood pool limits, or if they encounter someone who can read their Generation, is that their Generation is 2.

Which is the sort of thing that makes every vampire organization in the world want to kill them, or worship them, or both. Not to mention that sweet generation reduction that a vampire would get from eating them.

The goal, of course, would be to see how long they'd be able to survive, and how well they'd be able to carve out a niche in vampire society.
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Honestly sounds boring. Namely because without any connections to other vampires, they have literally no way to know anything about anything. Not only that, the big 'reveal' can never come except ooc, and the players have literally no reason to experiment to find out anything in such a context. Their only reason to experiment is, "I don't know anything, let's find out if I'm spiderman or superman."

Not to mention that all it's going to take is one Tremere getting one taste of blood, and you've now got the entire clan after you.
 
AshenFox said:
Honestly sounds boring. Namely because without any connections to other vampires, they have literally no way to know anything about anything. Not only that, the big 'reveal' can never come except ooc, and the players have literally no reason to experiment to find out anything in such a context. Their only reason to experiment is, "I don't know anything, let's find out if I'm spiderman or superman."

Not to mention that all it's going to take is one Tremere getting one taste of blood, and you've now got the entire clan after you.
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Eh. A lot of vampires start out without any ties to the community. That's the origin story of practically every Caitiff ever (and a small but significant number of non-Caitiff vamps), it's not like it's unexpected at all. The difference is that the standard Masquarade chronicle skips over the origin story. You're generally assumed to be an experienced vamp straight out of chargen. This would be your basic normal origin story game. Where they do have to struggle to find their place.

Of course, fucking off and taking over a small Alaskan town is a perfectly viable solution, too. But that's a potential decision in any game.


The twist just makes things a little more interesting, and gives the players reasons to get delusions of grandeur when it's revealed.
 
hyzmarca said:
Eh. A lot of vampires start out without any ties to the community. That's the origin story of practically every Caitiff ever (and a small but significant number of non-Caitiff vamps), it's not like it's unexpected at all. The difference is that the standard Masquarade chronicle skips over the origin story. You're generally assumed to be an experienced vamp straight out of chargen. This would be your basic normal origin story game. Where they do have to struggle to find their place.

Of course, fucking off and taking over a small Alaskan town is a perfectly viable solution, too. But that's a potential decision in any game.


The twist just makes things a little more interesting, and gives the players reasons to get delusions of grandeur when it's revealed.
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You're not making this sound any more fun. You are, in fact, just making it sound less. And backing out of your initial pitch too. "It's you five against the world"
"So... everyone is going to try to murder us...? I say we go play another game."
"Did I say everyone, I meant to say that you're just going to have other work at it to get someone to accept you!"
"We're Caitiff right?"
"Yeah...."
"Cool. Then the Camarilla will accept us. They'll treat us like shit, but they 90% won't execute us on sight. Unless the Prince is a dick. But that would mean that the ST is specifically out to kill us." *stares down the ST*
 
Ennnh. That sort of power is going to show up - like, I don't know how much the mechanics support it, but when you compare the power of an Antediluvian to something you can make with VtM rules... the simulation kind of breaks down.

Like, yeah, at first they'll be "just another Caitiff," but sooner or later something's going to be surprising.

But at that point they'll already be somewhat entrenched into the Camarilla, and getting at them will be difficult.

I think the best thing to do would be keep the IC revelation out as far as you can, and just have the Prince and others fighting over these oddly powerful Caitiff for a bit, before their actual Generation 2-ness comes to light and Elders start coming into play.
 
AshenFox said:
You're not making this sound any more fun. You are, in fact, just making it sound less. And backing out of your initial pitch too. "It's you five against the world"
"So... everyone is going to try to murder us...? I say we go play another game."
"Did I say everyone, I meant to say that you're just going to have other work at it to get someone to accept you!"
"We're Caitiff right?"
"Yeah...."
"Cool. Then the Camarilla will accept us. They'll treat us like shit, but they 90% won't execute us on sight. Unless the Prince is a dick. But that would mean that the ST is specifically out to kill us." *stares down the ST*
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To be honest that depends completely on your players of choice. "The entire world hates you and wants you dead, fight for survival and your place in the night" would be an easy sell for at least two people in my regular group, and finding more wouldn't exactly be difficult. Some people like having the world arrayed against them.
 
Omicron said:
To be honest that depends completely on your players of choice. "The entire world hates you and wants you dead, fight for survival and your place in the night" would be an easy sell for at least two people in my regular group, and finding more wouldn't exactly be difficult. Some people like having the world arrayed against them.
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"Vast forces are arrayed against you." Is a good story when done right.

All of oWoD vampires are out to get you, not so much. It's a fate just short of, "you've been NOTICED by the Technocracy." And relies on all of your opponent vampires being morons or so unbelievably arrogant that they should be dead. Which just breaks my suspension of disbelief.
 
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