Valkyrie Quest (Honkai Impact 3rd)
- Thread starter Guessmyname
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- Sci-Fi
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- Reader
Having read that flood of info, my take away is that too much otto attention is bad, but in a certain way, unavoidable with our background?
I still want the extra Honkai resistance, because insanity bad, but I do wish the majority wasn't quite so fixated on theresa. I'll deal. Either way, I'm just going to to let the vote proceed, and the outcome is the outcome.
Also no win situations are distinctively interest killing, so I'll stick with this quest and not concern myself with canon content. I really do hate the clitch of inescapable doom.
I still want the extra Honkai resistance, because insanity bad, but I do wish the majority wasn't quite so fixated on theresa. I'll deal. Either way, I'm just going to to let the vote proceed, and the outcome is the outcome.
Also no win situations are distinctively interest killing, so I'll stick with this quest and not concern myself with canon content. I really do hate the clitch of inescapable doom.
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
Regarding that, there's an important distinction you need to make.
The world is doomed. That doesn't mean the people are. We've been repeatedly shown examples, of all sorts, demonstrating that victory is possible. Victory just doesn't look like the status quo, or even like anything we'd recognize from the current world.
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
...let's go over a few victory options.
Victory isn't impossible. Victory just doesn't look like permanent defeat of a force of nature.
There's really nothing we could do as a Valkyrie to achieve any of these endings -- it's up to the researchers, and to people higher up the ranks than us -- but they are possible endings. They can be achieved, and will be achieved, if we can survive to get there.
- "Canon timeline", aka. A Post-Honkai Odyssey.
What is canon, for an explicitly many-worlds setting? It means this timeline is one that will definitely happen. It doesn't mean it's the only one, or that the majority of 'victory' timelines look anything like this. Regardless, in this timeline the Honkai got sealed away on the moon, by Kiana's hand, and some day in the future it might again break free. This... is essentially what happened in the previous era as well... it's a delaying action, not a true victory, but a delaying action where civilization doesn't get destroyed might be parlayed into victory a century or two later. It makes everything below easier.
- Interstellar / interdimensional empire
Take any of the options below, make it systematized, and posit that not only can they repeat the feat on demand, but the majority of people survive to do it. The Honkai might take down a specific timeline, but you can evacuate it and go somewhere safer. There might be localized outbreaks, even to the same scale as in canon, but they turn into background noise due to the sheer scale.
Star Rail, basically.
- Understanding the threat, and adapting to it.
The Honkai isn't something you can beat. There are Herrschers, and there are monsters, and you can beat those, but the phenomenon itself is more akin to a law of physics. You can dodge it, e.g. by skipping between worlds in the Sea of Quanta, but you can't... "defeat" it. Might as well speak of defeating electromagnetism.
Not all worlds are equally affected. A world that's still solidly part of the Imaginary Tree would not see the Honkai at all, while a low-end bubble universe might pop out of existence at any moment, and would lack a solid line of causality of its own. If you can transit between them, then you can avoid the dangerous ones. This was (perhaps) Dr. MEI's dream, represented by the 'natural' stigmata.
- Acquiescing to the Honkai's demands.
It does not, particularly, seem that the Honkai necessarily wants to destroy humanity. What's always been demonstrated is that it attacks civilization, technology, in particular...
Herrschers are gods, ruling by divine right. If you never fight them, then perhaps they'll let you live. This is not exactly what I'd call a -- good -- outcome... Teyvat is not what I'd call a beacon of justice and beauty... but it may be a possible conclusion.
- Giving up on living in universes.
Yes, this is actually an option. All of the above only applies to (bubble) universes that follow classical physics, not to anywhere that's been constructed, existing in the Sea of Quanta on its own. There are a few examples, mostly centered around Fallen Rosemary and her stories.
This is, um, not an especially reachable state of affairs, especially if we want to save all of humanity rather than (e.g.) just Seele and Bronya. But it's a possible outcome none the less.
- Getting the Honkai to fight itself.
Not sure if this should be counted separately, per se? It's a potential component of all of the others, but it's what seems to be happening in canon, so it's worth calling out. The Honkai can't necessarily be defeated, but um, if every single Herrscher ends up 'betraying' it then it amounts to the same thing.
If you can drag the war out into eternity, then you might as well have won.
Victory isn't impossible. Victory just doesn't look like permanent defeat of a force of nature.
There's really nothing we could do as a Valkyrie to achieve any of these endings -- it's up to the researchers, and to people higher up the ranks than us -- but they are possible endings. They can be achieved, and will be achieved, if we can survive to get there.
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- Location
- Wingmaiden's Reach, the Near Roofs, Town
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I have, to be perfectly honest, neither the time, the energy, the correct arguments, nor the desire to get into a huge fight with my friend over this; but suffice it to say I think Baughn is wrong and is painting a vastly bleaker picture of things than is necessary, true, or conducive to helping people understand.
And yeah, you know what, I have no hard science background, so maybe I'm an ignorant child who doesn't have the requisite experience with the bleeding edge of physics to even be saying this, but literally nothing coming out of ... um, basically anything? in Honkai leads me to conclusions that bleak.
Personally, my experience of the game and analysis of its story structure suggest to me that "everything is fucked, victory is impossible, get wrekt" is an ... unlikely? direction for the story to veer into?
But what the fuck do I know? I'm certainly not tall enough to reach the "you must have published this many theses on quantum loop gravity" bar for my opinions to have any fuckin' weight.
All I can say is that over here in layperson land, the story sure doesn't look like inevitable doom. Take that as you will, I guess.
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
Eh, I realised this myself. Hopefully the post above helps clarify my thinking? ^^;
- Location
- Florida
Err...is that true? Based off my reading about the Honkai, it comes across to me as a sort of civilizational filter where you either surpass the Honkai (in some way) or die forgotten (strangled in the crib if you're not strong enough to survive).
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
*Waggles fingers*
It seems to be happening. How much of it is genuine intent on part of the Honkai, and how much is Otto and others poking it with a stick? Hard to say.
The 1st Herrscher wouldn't have been a threat in prehistory. The ability to create anything you understand only becomes a threat once you understand things; the worst a 200 BC version of Joyce might have done is "hit someone with a sharp piece of metal", and that's nowhere near as threatening as a Herrscher with the ability to create autonomous battleships out of thin air.
The 2nd Herrscher, aka. Sirin, wouldn't have existed if Otto hadn't created the Siberian labs.
So how much is intent, inside or outside the story, and how much is happenstance? I can't answer that question. There's a number of low-tech bubble universes where the Honkai is also more or less quiescent, and a number of high-tech ones which are holding pitched battles every other day, but that too could be because the latter are capable of fighting, and the former aren't. Then again again, if the Honkai really wanted to destroy the world, wouldn't the former simply not exist?
Then again again again, the previous era was indeed destroyed. Only sheer luck led to anyone surviving.
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Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
Correct me if I'm wrong but the big difference between the current canon cycle of the games compared to previous cycles is that, for lack of a better word, several Herrchers have essentially betrayed the Honkai and switched sides.
Of course that hasn't properly happened yet but still.
Of course that hasn't properly happened yet but still.
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
Yes, more or less. That's what gets you to the ending where the Honkai doesn't "lose", but both sides represent it.
Now if you treat the Honkai as a distinct political entity then that may be wrong. In the above, I've treated it as a law of nature, while there is in fact something like a "Honkai god" that might conceivably fail to achieve its goals-
To the degree that said god has the goal of destroying humanity, when it isn't remotely clear what, if anything, might be its goal whatsoever, I don't think it counts as representing the Honkai as a whole. If you feel like that's semantics, then… yeah. It is. But the Honkai just doesn't feel like an intelligent opponent.
It all seems to be PvE, not PvP, if that makes sense.
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To stuff more info down people's throats Honkai is specifically called out as being one of the base cosmic forces of the setting.
It is not a god going "Fuck you in particular", it is the ten tons of metal dropping on the civilization that is a lodestone.
And it also specifically called out on being opposed to civilization, not humanity. As presented so far it is the Tree's equal and opposite, and the Tree is Growth I'm fairly sure.
Herrschers are what give the honkai any semblence of intelligence. Its unknown what the pre-requisites to be one are necessarily, but all-but-infinite honkai resistance seems to be one going by Sirin's torture and experiments.
After that Herrscher's seem to be born from snapping and their hate of humanity eclipsing the genocide point. Or something close, the 4th and 5th (Ice and Gravity) didn't have burning hatred but suicidal guilt and toxic resentment to that point.
Some words Mobius has with Mei in the Elysian Realm also imply that the way Herrcher's snap means that they cannot fight for humanity ever again. Mei, as was the point of their conversation, fights for a handful of people she loves, but would... not happily, but still tear apart the world's electromagnetic field and scorch all life on the planet if it was needed for them too.
Genshin Impact serves as a supporting point in the discussion of honkai... honestly right in the opening scenes.
So, one thing that happens in Honkai Impact early on is they go to China and find this enormous honkai beast in the ocean. It was explained that this beast was born when Fu Hua specifically distributed nanotech to some of her followers in ancient china when she was still the ruling Empress instead of its distant guardian.
In Genshin Impact the sibling you don't end up playing as is revealed to have woken up ahead of you and tried to make a kingdom/home for the both of them. Its not even revealed how long this lasted, but they had automated factories making robots that are still functioning five centuries later as soldiers.
The opening scene where you choose as which sibling to play as involves what can only be a Herrscher slapping both of them down and destroying the entire kingdom.
I won't say Genshin Impact has no honkai manifestation, but it appears to all be second hand. Waves lapping at the shore gently as opposed to HI3's towering storm waves breaking over-top the barriers.
Nanotech suddenly being passed out caused a spike of honkai that manifested a beast that was legitimately larger than Hawaii at least, and sudden Kingdom using robust robot tech and who knows what else garnered the response of a Herrscher.
It is not a god going "Fuck you in particular", it is the ten tons of metal dropping on the civilization that is a lodestone.
And it also specifically called out on being opposed to civilization, not humanity. As presented so far it is the Tree's equal and opposite, and the Tree is Growth I'm fairly sure.
Herrschers are what give the honkai any semblence of intelligence. Its unknown what the pre-requisites to be one are necessarily, but all-but-infinite honkai resistance seems to be one going by Sirin's torture and experiments.
After that Herrscher's seem to be born from snapping and their hate of humanity eclipsing the genocide point. Or something close, the 4th and 5th (Ice and Gravity) didn't have burning hatred but suicidal guilt and toxic resentment to that point.
Some words Mobius has with Mei in the Elysian Realm also imply that the way Herrcher's snap means that they cannot fight for humanity ever again. Mei, as was the point of their conversation, fights for a handful of people she loves, but would... not happily, but still tear apart the world's electromagnetic field and scorch all life on the planet if it was needed for them too.
Genshin Impact serves as a supporting point in the discussion of honkai... honestly right in the opening scenes.
So, one thing that happens in Honkai Impact early on is they go to China and find this enormous honkai beast in the ocean. It was explained that this beast was born when Fu Hua specifically distributed nanotech to some of her followers in ancient china when she was still the ruling Empress instead of its distant guardian.
In Genshin Impact the sibling you don't end up playing as is revealed to have woken up ahead of you and tried to make a kingdom/home for the both of them. Its not even revealed how long this lasted, but they had automated factories making robots that are still functioning five centuries later as soldiers.
The opening scene where you choose as which sibling to play as involves what can only be a Herrscher slapping both of them down and destroying the entire kingdom.
I won't say Genshin Impact has no honkai manifestation, but it appears to all be second hand. Waves lapping at the shore gently as opposed to HI3's towering storm waves breaking over-top the barriers.
Nanotech suddenly being passed out caused a spike of honkai that manifested a beast that was legitimately larger than Hawaii at least, and sudden Kingdom using robust robot tech and who knows what else garnered the response of a Herrscher.
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
Also, don't forget that I am not in fact the author.
I'm biased towards magnifying the SF parts, and seeing the world(-system/line, not people) as doomed. Of course I am. I wrote a quest about the aftermath!
But there's no guarantee that GuessMyName would agree with any of the above.
I'm biased towards magnifying the SF parts, and seeing the world(-system/line, not people) as doomed. Of course I am. I wrote a quest about the aftermath!
But there's no guarantee that GuessMyName would agree with any of the above.
- Location
- Zagreb
Just to quickly interject
The opposite of the Tree is the Sea of Quanta.
*scratches head* right, how to explain this...
Forewarning, this is one half direct info from the game, one third info I over time absorbed from multiple discussions with lore enthusiasts who know the setting far better then I do, and one sixth personal understanding/interpretation of how it works
...
The Sea and the Tree were effectively the first things to exist in the multiverse.
There is also a form of rivalry /coexistance between these two existances. The Sea wishes to drown the Tree, and the Tree wishes to smother and absorb the Sea. It's an unending cycle.
Honkai stands in between. The Collapse is ....a balancing act, a proving ground for the worlds of the Tree.
if the world fails the challenge presented by the Honkai, it is disconnected from the Tree and drifts freely into the Sea of Quanta. This is what is referred as a Bubble Universe.
Most bubble universes are...fixed timelines that are doomed to fail and be destroyed eventually
Whereas the worlds still connected to the Tree (like the canon/main HI3 world) still have the potential for multiple futures, the possibility of becoming a branch on the tree from which further worlds come into existence
That..is not quite what we got.
The opposite of the Tree is the Sea of Quanta.
*scratches head* right, how to explain this...
Forewarning, this is one half direct info from the game, one third info I over time absorbed from multiple discussions with lore enthusiasts who know the setting far better then I do, and one sixth personal understanding/interpretation of how it works
...
The Sea and the Tree were effectively the first things to exist in the multiverse.
There is also a form of rivalry /coexistance between these two existances. The Sea wishes to drown the Tree, and the Tree wishes to smother and absorb the Sea. It's an unending cycle.
Honkai stands in between. The Collapse is ....a balancing act, a proving ground for the worlds of the Tree.
if the world fails the challenge presented by the Honkai, it is disconnected from the Tree and drifts freely into the Sea of Quanta. This is what is referred as a Bubble Universe.
Most bubble universes are...fixed timelines that are doomed to fail and be destroyed eventually
Whereas the worlds still connected to the Tree (like the canon/main HI3 world) still have the potential for multiple futures, the possibility of becoming a branch on the tree from which further worlds come into existence
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
That's... how it's usually described, yeah. It's an oddly poetic way of describing a real-world theory, minus the bubble universes.
I don't think the Tree has any existence separate from the worlds that make it up, mind you. It's a tree. Worlds that are part of the tree, are worlds with multiple futures—they branch.
It sounds almost tautological, when I put it like that, but it's probably worth noting at some point in here that we have no reason to think things actually work this way in real life. As far as we can tell, when our timeline branches, there are no futures which do not themselves go on to branch. There is no smallest size of worldline.
Birthday
Have a Happy One!
- Location
- Somewhere
I... Don't recall this? Granted, I'm definitely not as versed in Honkai lore as other people in this thread, but it was my understanding that the Honkai completely ravaged Earth and only a select few people managed to survive in cryostasis pods. I can't remember them ever succeeding in sealing away all Honkai energy on Earth.
You're thinking of the end of the Previous Era, the Honkai was sealed in the moon in the backstory for APHO, which may or may not be canon in the future.
Birthday
Have a Happy One!
- Location
- Somewhere
No, I understand that. I don't recall something similar to that happening in the Previous Era, which is what Baugn's claim that Kiana sealing away the Honkai would only last a couple of centuries was based on.
- Location
- The Land of Many Bregrets
- Pronouns
- They/Them
So I was about to close the vote, but hit a slight snag: we have a tie on the Training votes. Top scorer is Theresa, but there's a tie between 'extra training' and 'Helena'.
Given I'm going to be re-wrangling the mechanics at the same time, in the name of simplicity I'm inclined to tiebreak on Helena. Thoughts?
[TRAINING] Theresa: 16 + 3 = 19
[TRAINING] Extra Training: 13
[TRAINING] Helena: 11 + 2 = 13
[TRAINING] Stela: 6
[TRAINING] Ragna: 5 + 1
[APPEARANCE] White Hair: 11
[APPEARANCE] Miku 01: 7
[NAME/COUNTRY] Maria from Germany: 10
[NAME/COUNTRY] Laima Liepa - Latvia: 5
(numerous one/two-vote options cut for brevity)
Given I'm going to be re-wrangling the mechanics at the same time, in the name of simplicity I'm inclined to tiebreak on Helena. Thoughts?
[TRAINING] Theresa: 16 + 3 = 19
[TRAINING] Extra Training: 13
[TRAINING] Helena: 11 + 2 = 13
[TRAINING] Stela: 6
[TRAINING] Ragna: 5 + 1
[APPEARANCE] White Hair: 11
[APPEARANCE] Miku 01: 7
[NAME/COUNTRY] Maria from Germany: 10
[NAME/COUNTRY] Laima Liepa - Latvia: 5
(numerous one/two-vote options cut for brevity)
Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
I like Helena.
- Pronouns
- Reader
Combine the two where helena becomes our rival in everything rather than just sparring, and is guaranteed, bout we get a boost in Resistance instead, and less otto attention.
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- Location
- United States
Personally prefer it where Helena claims were her friend. Though combining the two just makes me think the two spending a lot of time around eachother so are friendly and familiar with eachother's style.
- Location
- The Land of Many Bregrets
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Voting Closed.