Sardonyx: Scion and Trinity Continuum

[Aaron Peori]

And that's why you've basically gotta go Raiden on the Charm list.

I mean, one of the basics for Sardonyx so far is "Don't add dice and don't futz with TN outside of what your Tier does."

That alone should cut out like, what? 800 charms or so?

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Which is an immense relief. I think if you're creating an exception based system your individual powers should be exceptions. Fifty different varieties of "increase odds of success by x%" are not variety and their inclusion is just busywork.

I get the impression that the way tiers work as outlined in this document is that if you have a Knack/Power of the appropriate tier you just add the tier enhancement to the roll. "I have Herculean Lifter (Hero) so I add +x to lift rolls, you have Herculean Lifter (God) so you add +x*y." and so on.

 

[GhanjRho]

Having perused the mechanics a bit I really like the way Enhancements and multiple actions work. Use the lowest skill, if you fail to roll a success you fail overall, then if you roll one success add in all applicable Enhancements and distribute them between actions. It really makes attacking multiple opponents very easy to resolve and it makes me think I should just import that rule straight into Exalted.

Though why they changed all the stat names around when they already had the same breakdown for New World of Darkness eludes me. I don't really like pointless renaming stuff when they don't have to and the changes aren't very significant.

Though speaking of changing things; they should rename successes as something else (hits, scores, whatever) because all the talk about "roll successes and subtract difficulty and then split you can succeed and then spend successes on different successful stuff" gets annoying and confusing.

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I think it is attempt to distance themselves from previous system. \\both in mental capacity- this does not to have work like it did before and in marketing capacity-look at these new shiny things.

Question: Does anyone else find Divis mal annoying? He feels very sueish to me, he is too perfect(most annoing), too correct and too important and it just irks me the wrong way.

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It's probably legal reasons. Unlike nWoD/cWoD, Scion and Trinity are owned outright by Onyx Path. And if their relationship with CCP sours (not that I think it will, but they'd be fools not to keep the possibility in mind), having Scion/Trinity use anything that could be interpreted as CCP property would be... unfortunate. Hence, even though Sardonyx clearly has quite a bit of the Storytell(er/ing) systems in it's DNA, it's sufficiently different that a lawsuit wouldn't (likely) go anywhere.

So, what do people think about the changing attack attributes?

 

[notanautomaton]

It's probably legal reasons. Unlike nWoD/cWoD, Scion and Trinity are owned outright by Onyx Path. And if their relationship with CCP sours (not that I think it will, but they'd be fools not to keep the possibility in mind), having Scion/Trinity use anything that could be interpreted as CCP property would be... unfortunate. Hence, even though Sardonyx clearly has quite a bit of the Storytell(er/ing) systems in it's DNA, it's sufficiently different that a lawsuit wouldn't (likely) go anywhere.

So, what do people think about the changing attack attributes?

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I heard that CCP owns the Storyteller system, so they would have to license it from them, which kind of defeats the purpose of buying them.

 

[Nervaqus987]

Okay, nothing much new is happening.

The new Onyx Path Brochure is putting Aeon and Scion as coming out in 2016.

There's no major spoilers yet and probably wont be for a while.

However, there have been a couple spoilers released.

First off, Scion wise;

The Manitou, the Algonquin Pantheon, has been confirmed as a Core book Pantheon.

There are going to be four different types of Scion, with three confirmed so far. First is the classic one godly parent, one mortal parent. Second is being created by a god wholesale from inanimate materials(the Enkidu option), which takes a fair bit of effort on the deity's part and an association with mortality. Third is to be transformed in infancy through miraculous means. It also requires you to be the descendent of mortal nobility or have divine lineage somewhere in your family tree.

Finally, there's some talk of changing the Greek's PSP from Arete to some kind of Shapeshifting. Because as we all know, the Olympians loved their shape shifting shenanigans.

Trinity stuff, I can't find as much information on, unfortunately.

That said, one of the secondary settings for Trinity has been teased, called Anima. It's in 2084, set after the Aberrant War, with humanity still on the recovery and about fifteen years before the first Psions. People are seeking comfort through memory tech with the oh so classical line, "nothing is as straightforward as it seems on the surface."

Also, this is apparently the era that explains why people in Aeon proper are leery of invasive hardtech.

 

[Creticus]

It's good that we're going to get another Native American pantheon in the core, not least because this means that we'll never get one of those smooshed-together messes that get mentioned whenever the issue of Native American pantheons comes up. Likewise, different origins for Scions is good news, though I'm a bit miffed that mortals who attain godhood by pursuing spiritual enlightenment under divine tutelage are out. Fortunately, that should be simple to handwave.

I'm not so keen on seeing Arete being switched out for some kind of shape-shifting. The former feels Greek to me, whereas the latter is just too widespread for that to hold true.

 

[Nervaqus987]

though I'm a bit miffed that mortals who attain godhood by pursuing spiritual enlightenment under divine tutelage are out.

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Well, there's still Scion type #4 with that as a possibility.

But yeah, easy to handwave.

I'm not so keen on seeing Arete being switched out for some kind of shape-shifting. The former feels Greek to me, whereas the latter is just too widespread for that to hold true.

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Like I mentioned, there's talk of it, not total confirmation. So it may happen or it may not, but the idea is apparently being explored.

 

[Creticus]

Like I mentioned, there's talk of it, not total confirmation. So it may happen or it may not, but the idea is apparently being explored.

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I know. It's the reason I'm not running around screaming like it's the end of the world, though even if it had been confirmed, that would still be a gross overreaction. Overall, I'm liking how Scion 2nd Edition seems to be turning out, which is really, really strange considering that we're talking about the Scion line.

 

[Dirty Socks]

Wait wait wait, I thought this thread was about these guys...

Spoiler

 

[SinisterPorpoise]

Wait wait wait, I thought this thread was about these guys...

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Put those pictures in a spoiler, also the first pic is broken.

 

[quantumavenger]

Okay, nothing much new is happening.
Third is to be transformed in infancy through miraculous means. It also requires you to be the descendent of mortal nobility or have divine lineage somewhere in your family tree.

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I wonder if this is supposed to be some option for emulating Jesus Christ?

 

[Nervaqus987]

Something for Trinity from Ian;

The Hammersmith explosion imbued Mercer and Donighal with extra powers specifically because they were close to the centre of the explosion and received its full effects. Most people in the world -- or even most people in that room -- did not.

Donighal didn't receive anything unusual, per se, just a lot of it. He's got the power of a nova in an era of stalwarts. By the time the Nova Age catches up, he's obviously stronger yet. His capabilities aren't anything a PC couldn't achieve, he just (mostly) gets there first.

Mercer's abilities are (thus far) unique, predominantly because of the difference in how paramorph abilities function vs. novas powers. Novas are generally a gradual progression of power, while paramorphs have discrete energy plateaus. Most Talents function at the first plateau, where they're generally regarded as lucky or skilled. Max was given a huge influx -- even more than Donighal -- which shoved him all the way up to the next plateau.

I'm planning on detailing exactly how that works. Not in the core, certainly, but later. While Max may be unique for the duration of the existing Continuum, your PCs should potentially be able to join him.

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[Nervaqus987]

And some Scion stuff from Neall;

Neall,1) Besides the Theoi and the Loa/Yoruba-gods (not sure of their collective noun off-hand), are their any other of the 1e pantheons that are getting major conceptual overhauls on their PSPs? (On a related note, please tell me Geasa are still in for the Tuatha)

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Virtually all of them. Geasa are still important for the Tuatha.

2) Related but distinct: What is your general approach or design philosophy for PSPs?

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If there are cultural magics wielded by the gods, and/or if the mythologies have distinct powers their gods frequently use, those go into a Pantheon-specific Purview. Ideally, this is under a unifying theme that relates to the pantheons. This is why the Greeks are superior shapeshifters to even the Knacks of various Trickster Callings - they embody concepts, and thus their shape is often irrelevant. PSPs also tie into other Purviews and Knacks, to produce culturally-specific effects.

That said, PSPs are one of the things we need to kick the tires the hardest and longest on, to make sure the fucking things work. Seiðr and runic magic are both distinct but would, under this paradigm, be under the Æsir PSP; does this work for characters? Can we tie the two together somehow? It's slow going, but I think it'll work.

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Now I know you have stated that the Gods aren't birthed from mortal belief

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Yup, that is correct.

nor fueled by it.

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Did not say that. Gods aren't reliant on worship for power, it's true, the same way a car isn't precisely reliant on high-quality gasoline or a tank of nitrous oxide strapped under the frame. But those certainly make driving easier and give a massive boost, if you're not afraid of taking a little wear on the engine.

There's a degree of symbiosis going on. Gods needs humanity as much as humanity needs the Gods, if for nothing else than to provide meaning for one another. They can exist apart from one another, but they're lesser for it.

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[Nervaqus987]

Fourth type of Scion has been revealed.

Looking at those inspirations... is the fourth type a god who's died and been reincarnated?

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Yep. That's what happens when you make the Devata and Tuatha into core pantheons (with Nemetondevos as a stretch goal).

Gods, demigods, and even heroes can be reincarnated and weave their Legend to take advantage of their prior incarnation's power. It's hard to kill a god (unless they're Fated somehow to completely perish, and even then it's nearly impossible to keep a good life-death-rebirth deity down, so long as they don't get killed by mistletoe or something), but it can be done, and they'll hang out in the Underworld until they resurrect somehow, choose to reincarnate as mortals, or just sort of dissipate into a shade. Their divine mantles don't disappear when they die - the archetypes and power they embody still exist within Fate, so a successor could potentially seize that mantle and adopt it themselves.

Minor gods, perished demigods, or cultural heroes chosen to do the will of divinity are the ones we suggest in the game (a few from every pantheon), or gods from a now-defunct part of the pantheon, but if your Scion game has that Thor took one to the face about twenty years back and now you've got to fight off Magni and Modi to wield Mjolnir once more, more power to you.

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[notanautomaton]

You could probably swing that as a person who enlightened themselves, or something, that people were talking about up thread.

 

[GhanjRho]

So if memory serves, this makes the four Scion types:

The old-fashioned way, aka the half-God.

The constructed (though it apparently involves miraculous intervention)

Investiture of power (though precisely how this works is unstated)

And finally the reincarnation of a dead God.

 

[SinisterPorpoise]

You could probably swing that as a person who enlightened themselves, or something, that people were talking about up thread.

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A lot of the methods of immortality that I've heard of involve dying(and either coming back or becoming something else) as the last step in the process.

 

[IanWatson]

Oh hey guys what's going on in this thread

 

[MJ12 Commando]

Oh hey guys what's going on in this thread

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We're talking smack about you

(No I actually like what I'm seeing so far)

What the current system seems kind of like is basically "what if you did Feng Shui in the Storyteller system" which is not the route I'd have personally taken for Aberrant/Trinity, but I think it's a pretty good concept in the generalities.

 

[IanWatson]

We're talking smack about you

(No I actually like what I'm seeing so far)

What the current system seems kind of like is basically "what if you did Feng Shui in the Storyteller system" which is not the route I'd have personally taken for Aberrant/Trinity, but I think it's a pretty good concept in the generalities.

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Glad to hear it. Keep in mind that Sardonyx/Storypath is the core system both games will share, but each game will present its own tweaked version. So you're looking at the bare bones which Neall and I will each be fleshing out in a slightly different manner.

A poster upthread nailed what we're after: we're not after real-realism, we're more emulating action-adventure "realism," so that changes how we approach some situations and mechanics. The Continuum is ultimately an action-adventure setting with a number of sub-genres: pulp, supers, and psci-fi, to start.

 

[MJ12 Commando]

Glad to hear it. Keep in mind that Sardonyx/Storypath is the core system both games will share, but each game will present its own tweaked version. So you're looking at the bare bones which Neall and I will each be fleshing out in a slightly different manner.

A poster upthread nailed what we're after: we're not after real-realism, we're more emulating action-adventure "realism," so that changes how we approach some situations and mechanics. The Continuum is ultimately an action-adventure setting with a number of sub-genres: pulp, supers, and psci-fi, to start.

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That's exactly what I mean by Feng Shui in the Storyteller system and realism vs. action movie logic. (If you have shotguns deal more damage if the player mimes pumping them and makes a 'CA-CHICK' sound, I'm done.)

I do think that the Aeon trilogy loses something if it's not basically a semi-realistic system where being a squishy hoo-man means you should be very careful and you get to do crazy badass stunts because you've got impossibly hardcore superpowers making you a man-sized tank but it makes sense for, say, Scion and I'm just one of those unpleasable grognards.

 

[IanWatson]

Sound effects are not mechanically supported, no.

Normal, everyday baseline humans will turn into a fine red mist if you hit them hard enough. We are assuming that that's probably not what you're playing. Talents, psions, and novas are made of sterner stuff -- especially PCs.

And being "made of sterner stuff" doesn't mean you'll never die. It just means that if Daredevil is punched by the Hulk, he has a chance to make it out the other side and not be mistaken for El Paso Chunky Salsa. He could still die, or need immediate hospitalization. But maybe, just maybe, he spits out some blood and/or teeth, stumbles to his feet, takes a deep breath, and is ready to keep fighting.

 

[zorb42]

snip

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Completely honestly, What you are trying to do is significant break with the established hard setting rules for Trinity. I am okay with that. It can work. What irritates me are your attempts to downplay this change as unimportant, and inconsequential which is just facetious. Your example is also explicitly wrong Daredevils could always survive as you described already, because Daredevils are the cheaters of the setting and what you described is their iconic power.

 

[IanWatson]

Completely honestly, What you are trying to do is significant break with the established hard setting rules for Trinity. I am okay with that. It can work. What irritates me are your attempts to downplay this change as unimportant, and inconsequential which is just facetious. Your example is also explicitly wrong Daredevils could always survive as you described already, because Daredevils are the cheaters of the setting and what you described is their iconic power.

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Given that the entire system is different, yes, the rules are different. I never argued otherwise. I'm not sure where you're reading "unimportant" or "inconsequential" into anything I said. All I'm doing is describing how something works.

Daredevils could not always survive unless you picked that specific knack. And that's still the case. If you pick that knack, that takes the risk out entirely. The Storypath system as described does not give you an instant win, it just gives you a better chance than it does ordinary humans. You could still die.

And if that's not something you want in your particular games, cool. You can easily ignore it. I've yet to play any system where the GM hasn't mucked with the rules at least a little.

 

[Sam cw]

Given that the entire system is different, yes, the rules are different. I never argued otherwise. I'm not sure where you're reading "unimportant" or "inconsequential" into anything I said. All I'm doing is describing how something works.

Daredevils could not always survive unless you picked that specific knack. And that's still the case. If you pick that knack, that takes the risk out entirely. The Storypath system as described does not give you an instant win, it just gives you a better chance than it does ordinary humans. You could still die.

And if that's not something you want in your particular games, cool. You can easily ignore it. I've yet to play any system where the GM hasn't mucked with the rules at least a little.

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IIRC, the power scales have "realistic" and "action movie" settings at every stage, so a side bar or short section in the ST chapter on changing which setting you're using where and when, and how it alters the feel of the game, seems to me like it would answer most people's misgivings about the change in default tone. If switching "back" is as simple as using a different table, then it's not something to be worried about the way it would be if it was hard-coded into the system.

Edit: I think what MJ is getting at is that you're describing a change without also noting that it's a change.

 

[Finbar]

Ok, I'm a huge fan of Trinity/Aberrant/Adventure.

To see it being re-done, fills me with malevolent glee.