No, not really. Of course it doesn't consider it a problem, since the game has always had as a goal to have vast stretches of 'drop your own cool piece of setting there' on the map, but you can disagree with that notion and all.
The world got bigger, and they haven't released any new source books so far, so...if anything it got worse?
And that is a shame. Fleshed-out fantasy worlds such as Paizos Golarion are a great thing to have as a GM and as a player.
You can get around it by either sticking to one of the fleshed-out locations - or just outright making up your own stuff.
And that can be good, but it's definitely extra work.
Yeah, but you aren't doing it without caveats. You're openly and explicitly writing from a perspective that includes "it's flawed, but the flaws are things I largely don't run into and/or my personal talents deal with easily." which is fair enough.
I think it's interesting to note that the only two people in this thread defending 3e without caveats are the guy who was a closed beta tester who had direct access to dev advice any time problems came up, and one of the guys who plays with him.
Amusingly, I got relatively little 'dev advice' as a playtester. Spoon-feeding people corrections when they made any but the most grievous mistakes would have kind of spoiled the point, so a lot of what I got was cryptic mumblings of interests and 'we'll look into that.'
Now there is an Exalted IRC, I'm on it and the devs are on it and it has a lot of Ex3 conversation, so yeah, I freely admit that my understanding of Ex3 is framed by talking with the writers a lot (or reading as they talk to others). That's a thing.
No, not really. Of course it doesn't consider it a problem, since the game has always had as a goal to have vast stretches of 'drop your own cool piece of setting there' on the map, but you can disagree with that notion and all.
Eh, there being a lot of space that's not heavily elaborated upon isnt necessarily bad, it's when the actual in depth locations are all seperated by vague lands, essentially that players and gm's have to homebrew if they want to travel between the defined lands.
so, exactly what i said then lol
Yeah, but you aren't doing it without caveats. You're openly and explicitly writing from a perspective that includes "it's flawed, but the flaws are things I largely don't run into and/or my personal talents deal with easily." which is fair enough.
3e isn't perfect. I also do not consider many of the things people call flaws to be, you know. Flaws. My issues are more like...most of Linguistics feels like it will literally never be relevant in any game. The fuck-ups with the art. A reference to Lunars as slaves to the Solars in the First Age (to be fair it's only mentioned once that I can find, and not in the Lunars section, I suspect its an editing relic that got dropped like a hot coal). Errors in formatting resulting in important stats in the antagonists section being missing, that one pisses me off, but they had like 3 guys doing the writing and editing so whatever, mistakes happen.
I hate how Ox-Dragons look in the art, god I fucking hate how Ox-Dragons look. They are Triceratops, not fire-breathing fantasy dinosaurs. I hate how Octavian looks. Some of the artifact pictures don't match their descriptions that well. War and Stealth don't have any Essence 5 Charms (this is a minor, minor annoyance, but still). Dodge has way too freaking many "Dodge 4-5" as prereqs. And they cut the freaking demon summoning risks example for a giant index of literally every charm in the back of the book come on.
Those are my grievances. I love Craft. Love DMP. Love character Creation. Love MA. Love all the potential combinations and number of Charms. Dice tricks are super fun in play. Vanilla 3e is fun to play and fun to run. It's my favorite game ever. I highly recommend it.
Okay. Why are you wasting time on this red herring? The topic started with MJ12 Commando talking about a perspective of "we can't trust players to not be complete fuckups", which is clearly about mistakes, so why are you talking about intentional system abuse?
Given that the context was an expansion on CBT context, I think 'mistakes' is not quite the descriptor. But maybe I'm overanalyzing the heritage of MJ12's post. In which case, I'm sorry.
More like those two guys are one of the few people who feel like that who tend to post on SV. For some reason SV is seen as being somewhat hostile to people who are really enthusiastic about 3e, so a lot of fans sorta steer clear of this thread. Speaking as someone who has literally been asked why I would bother to post here by people who don't frequent SV.
Given that the context was an expansion on CBT context, I think 'mistakes' is not quite the descriptor. But maybe I'm overanalyzing the heritage of MJ12's post. In which case, I'm sorry.
It's not like the 2e books get significantly more love than 3e here either. Nor does the WoD, judging by the other thread.
It can get grating to have people going on about how obviously flawed Craft is and how it needs fixing for general publish, or how MAs are clearly a bad way to handle game design being spoken as though it were objective fact. Also, 2e is far more actually broken. Seriously, that game is like glass made out of paper maiche.
Page 570. A.k.a. three fucking pages away from its actual write-up. I doubt you even realized it was supposed to be an Ox-Dragon. It's the thing with the giant horn and the orange glowing mouth.
In all seriousness, I think we should all just get on with it and let everybody talk, discuss and play whatever edition of Wayward Demigod Superweapon that they feel like playing.
In all seriousness, I think we should all just get on with it and let everybody talk, discuss and play whatever edition of Wayward Demigod Superweapon that they feel like playing.
I'm actually still in a 2.5 game. Attempts were made for a 3e conversion but it would have required homebrewing Lunars, Sidereals, Dragonblooded, Alchemicals, and Infernals as well as Third Circle Demons and mighty spirits. Also there were troubles converting one of the characters in a way the player liked. So we stuck with 2.5. At 858xp. Filled with homebrewed SMAs and mad scientist dinosaurs and cars that were once dragons. It's insane in all the best ways.
Page 570. A.k.a. three fucking pages away from its actual write-up. I doubt you even realized it was supposed to be an Ox-Dragon. It's the thing with the giant horn and the orange glowing mouth.
It's not even an Ox-Dragon! It's a bizarre fantasy dinosaur! The hack they hired didn't even read the damned blurb! He just drew a Horned Fantasy Dinosaur!
(Triceratops are like my favorite dinosaur and I resent that the artist didn't just draw a triceratops. They're way cooler than any stupid fantasy dino-monster you could possibly come up with)
Insofar as that's a problem, it's not one that it's really possible to fix without detailing every pixel of Creation's map, which is both insane and brings its own, much bigger problems with it.
What I suspect you're identifying here is actually 2e's tendency to ignore the "vaguely-defined stuff" in favour of having city-states separated by thousands of miles of desert engage in intercinine politics and saber-rattling and trade wars and so on, which made the setting seem small and the space between its pitstops seem empty. I put this down to an unwillingness to move beyond ideas established by 1e, and a lack of understanding of scale and geography.
Personally speaking, I find the same applies to setting actors. The more times a piece of setting material namedrops Chejop Kejak, the less likely I am to be interested.
The way to solve that problem is to return to brief overviews of regions with a central, more closely-described focal point, largely self-contained. This was a trend (re)started in Masters of Jade and carried through to 3e - so the answer to your original question is most likely yes.
Eh, the question becomes what level of trait is good enough to routinely perform what task, which is apparently a spectrum separate from the difficulty spectrum for more non-routine tasks. Like, is Jet-Propelled Birds 1 specialty (plus most attributes at 2) enough to actually land an airplane routinely albeit with a bit of excess carefulness due to lack of experience? How about doing some more fancy yet tasks that still fall under 'routine'? Ideally, that can be tackled by reviewing/reworking the automatic success rule.
Well, a professional will have about five to six dice in what they do, right? So if the character has that, they can do anything a professional could regularly do. In this continuing example, land a plane. So, yeah. Whatever your skill is and attributes at 2 and the specialty is 5 dice, so you can land the plane under normal circumstances.
If its a fancy task that falls under routine (Jet fighter pilot doings ridiculous mauvers, for this example. Jet fighters are best of best, so they will have more dice, but that doesn't matter) then it falls under routine. If its really fancy (airliner pilot wanting to show off by getting the 747 to do a loop the loop) just have then roll as usual.
I think it's interesting to note that the only two people in this thread defending 3e without caveats are the guy who was a closed beta tester who had direct access to dev advice any time problems came up, and one of the guys who plays with him.
Insofar as that's a problem, it's not one that it's really possible to fix without detailing every pixel of Creation's map, which is both insane and brings its own, much bigger problems with it.
What I suspect you're identifying here is actually 2e's tendency to ignore the "vaguely-defined stuff" in favour of having city-states separated by thousands of miles of desert engage in intercinine politics and saber-rattling and trade wars and so on, which made the setting seem small and the space between its pitstops seem empty. I put this down to an unwillingness to move beyond ideas established by 1e, and a lack of understanding of scale and geography.
Personally speaking, I find the same applies to setting actors. The more times a piece of setting material namedrops Chejop Kejak, the less likely I am to be interested.
The way to solve that problem is to return to brief overviews of regions with a central, more closely-described focal point, largely self-contained. This was a trend (re)started in Masters of Jade and carried through to 3e - so the answer to your original question is most likely yes.
My guess is that this, in turn, was caused by wanting to avoid the opposite problem: existence of Cool Locales 'in a vacuum'. Imagine that the Trade Federation and the Galactic Republic were situated in different galaxies, with neither the resources nor reason to be at each other's throats, and without any similar-calibre opposing forces in their respective regions. That wouldn't allow for epic clashes on a galactic scale!
Similarly, if, say, the Realm and Lookshy, or the Guild and the Haslanti, or Gem and Paragon each existed in their respective small ponds, any existing political conflicts would never be able to achieve such a grand scale as they did in Exalted. Any given small pond would either look like a politically monopolar world, or would need to be supported with dozens of well-detailed major players in order not to feel empty.
If one wants to make a world of epic scale like Creation and support grand worldspanning conflicts, one is forced to, at a minimum, postulate that the major players of the setting are capable of force projection across Creation. It also requires filling it with more stuff in order to not feel empty. My original problem with Scavenger Sons is that it tries to fit a world much larger than ours into a book smaller than, say, Fifth Wave (a Transhuman Space book detailing our world in a fictional future; and I consider FW to be a densely-packed setting book). But while Terrestrial Directions in total expanded upon Scavenger Sons, they largely did so by adding lots and lots of texts to pre-defined city-states, but still retaining much of the vagueness and still left huge empty fields.
I don't think it's possible to produce a world that is both large enough to match Creation's grandness while keeping it detailed enough to avoid all of the aforementioned syndroms unless one is willing to put significantly more time, money and people into it.
My guess is that this, in turn, was caused by wanting to avoid the opposite problem: existence of Cool Locales 'in a vacuum'. Imagine that the Trade Federation and the Galactic Republic were situated in different galaxies, with neither the resources nor reason to be at each other's throats, and without any similar-calibre opposing forces in their respective regions. That wouldn't allow for epic clashes on a galactic scale!
The difference there is that the Realm exists as a foundation of Exalted's setting, while Whitewall and Chiaroscuro exist as places within that same setting. When we discuss Whitewall, it is important and necessary to make clear its relationship with the Scarlet Empire for the same reason it is important and necessary to make clear its relationship with gravity. And in both cases, "none" is an answer that is surprising but not totallly impossible.
By contrast, Chiaroscuro and Whitewall having any sort of relationship is nonsense, and you shouldn't treat them as neighbours just because so few other cities stand out on the map - doing so makes the setting seem empty and hollow.
This is also true on a local level. A fat chunk of the coastal East is occupied by the powerful and wide-ranging Confederation of Rivers - this is an established axiom of that area of the setting, a rule of the sandbox within which you play. It would be bizarre and out of place not to at least consider their influence on whatever you're writing into that area. That doesn't mean Lookshy should be namedropped in discussions of the Bull of the North.
The ab-Zaleh reef lies west of the Wailing Fen. The coral there grows a peculiarly bright yellow colour, and golden fish swim around it. A rare breed of dolphin play in the waters around it, a saltwater kin of the pink river-dolphins of An Teng. The reef teems with life, not least because it experiences near constant sunlight. There are several wrecked wooden ships of varying ages wrecked on the reef, surrounded by the sun-bleached corpses of their crew.
Long ago, in some forgotten war a sky-vessel of shining gold was gutted by weapons of unimaginable potency. Trailing fire, it fell from the heavens. The warm blue-green waters of the South West were the grave for the god-mind of this ship and its six hundred crewmen - and so it passed from the minds of men and into myth.
Sea life colonised the wreckage. Fish swam through submerged control centres and sharks hunted in the torpedo rooms. Coral subsumed everything. But within the engine room, the false sun of the vessel's reactor fed seaweed that grew down in the depths. The seaweed was changed by the oozing liquid sunlight and the creatures that fed on the seaweed were changed too.
Sunlight calls to sunlight. The tiny creatures of the coral felt the sun around them and the sun above them and the sun within them and they built their towers high, Eventually the reef broke the surface and spread out as a strange, twisted flower-shape of coral.
The sun-essence of the damaged reactor has sunk into the local dragon-lines and warped them, bringing them to spiral around it. The demesne's essence flows are dominated by the local water-lines, but the reactor bleeds sunlight into the world and the flower-coral gathers sunlight and channels it into the local flows. The disruption has never worsened enough that water elementals have been generated, but the currents in the area are irregular and undependable, causing vessels to avoid this area. Ones who come to close to the reef find that the spiralling currents trap them there and dash them on the coral.
Essence can be gathered from this demesne from fish who have swum into the reactor room, which is the nexus of this zone. Alternatively, if someone were to swim down into the depths they could scrape up the thick, viscous essence that oozes from the reactor before it disperses - though the entire reactor-room is fiercely irradiated and anyone who enters it would suffer painful essence burns and mutation unless they were well-shielded.
Were the secret of the al-Zaleh reef to be to discovered, no doubt some would be tempted to recover the gutted hull of the First Age sky-cruiser which lies at its heart. The vessel has suffered catastrophic damage and the delicate internal systems have sucumbed to ruin, but the hull could be salvaged and repurposed - or broken down for vast amounts of orichalcum and jade. This would catastrophically destablise the demesne, which would detonate explosively. It might well be wiser to leave the hull in place - because, certainly, it would make a solid foundation for a manse. The knowledge that long ago there was a battle here may be just as valuable, because there is sparely scattered wreckage sunk into the silt and mud of the warm waters for a hundred kilometres around.
So, I'm seeing a lot of "problems aren't hard to fix, as long as you know about them", which is useful to know insofar as, being someone with no prior contact with any of Exalted's actual crunch, it tells me that I'm probably fucked, because I'm gonna be a GM that is going to have to put out a lot of fires, but first I need to find them.
The knowledge that 3e's answer to "problem?" seems to be "have the GM fudge it!" is also not exactly a reassuring statement, you know?
Honestly the only two problems that need fixing is Craft and Character Creation.
Everything else? You can houserule it to somewhat improve things, but it's not necessary by any means.
Here's what I wrote for character creation a while back:
BP, go die in a fire! Please use the following system to make your characters:
You get XP for categories. You spend those XP to build your character. Bit of work at the start, but honestly probably much better than the BP-mess. None of those count as XP for advancing to higher Essence, obviously.
160 XP on attributes. At least 30 must be spent on Physical, Mental and Social attributes each.
80 XP on abilities. No ability may be raised above 3 dots using these, you use free XP for that.
You still get four free specialties.
140 XP on Charms.
70 free XP. These can be used for anything.
You get 10 points to spend on story or innate merits. Purchased Merits are bought with XP.
Up to 10 unspent XP can be taken into the game as Solar XP if they are not spent at character creation.
You can fudge those numbers if you think anything is too high.
Alternatively, you just let character creation as-is, but hand out BP during the game instead of XP. This requires you to set BP-cost for some charm-effects that cost XP, but that's a minor issue.
Or you just hand out XP, but make flat costs for all attributes and abilities.
The reason this is necessary is called the BP/XP split. Namely, depending on how you build your character during character creation, you can have a huge advantage in terms of XP later on. Getting Strenght 1, Dexterity 5, Stamina 1 for example - getting to 3/5/3 from there is way cheaper than getting to 3/5/3 from 3/3/1.
This can, frankly, make players unhappy once they notice and create shitty balance.
For craft - you can leave it as-is unless you have a crafter in the group.
My suggestion however: Nuke the whole craft-system from orbit. Treat Craft-specialties that work like Lore-specialties, and handle all mundane projects as normal extended rolls, not that slot-system the game has. Then use the sorcerous working system for artifact creation.
I should probably write that up sometime as well. For now, it's enought to ask your players to simply not make a craft-focussed character, and you should be good.
Everything else?
Works just fine, and houserules only alter things to taste instead of fixing broken things.
I do hope that helps!
I thought they mostly fixed the bp/xp split in 3e. I don't know where the post is, but basically the difference between the most XP Efficient/deficient build was basically 20xp.
I thought they mostly fixed the bp/xp split in 3e. I don't know where the post is, but basically the difference between the most XP Efficient/deficient build was basically 20xp.
That's very much not true. As a very simple example: if you do your tertiary attributes as 5/1/1, that's 40 XP worth of dots; if you do 3/2/2, that's 20 XP worth of dots. There's a difference of 20 XP just in choosing one Attribute category.
Then consider the other Attributes, Abilities, and Willpower, plus BP conversion rates that range from about 2:1 to about 5:1. It's very possible to break triple digit differences.
Which someone can not care about as they like, but it's there.
For a simple example of broken fundamental stuff, the lack of any kind of general rules for resolving counterattacks means Crane Style as written just doesn't work.