Speaking of incoherent nonsense...

No, non, negative, flag on the play, it's one thing to say "In the interest of simplification we will use exact same thing to represent unarmed and armed combat in this tabletop RPG" but this is a bridge too far.

Floyd Mayweather is a masterful boxer, but do you really think he can hang with an Olympic Gold Medalist in fencing if you put a foil in his hand? For that matter, strap some gloves on that fencer and put him in the ring with Floyd, he's going to get taken to school.
And when Knives McGee can be divested of his disturbing number of daggers, dirks, stiletto's (this list goes on for a while), handed a halberd and thrown into the ring with Fred "It's Hammer Time" Pounder, professional luchador (rudos, naturally) and meat tenderiser, for no loss of skill I will concede that you have a meaningful point. But Exalted, and for the most part the Storyteller system, is not that granular a game.
 
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And when Knives McGee can be divested of his disturbing number of daggers, dirks, stiletto's (this list goes on for a while), handed a halberd and fight a guy with a sledgehammer with no loss of skill, I will concede that you have a point. Exalted, and for the most part the Storyteller system, is not that granular a game.

Touche.

I'm not so concerned about Exalted mechanics, it's the "real life: empty handed fighting proficiency = armed proficiency" part that set my teeth on edge.
 
Touche.

I'm not so concerned about Exalted mechanics, it's the "real life: empty handed fighting proficiency = armed proficiency" part that set my teeth on edge.
Honestly, it follows fairly well. A lot of learning to fight in my experience is attitude and body motion; things like footwork, positioning, economy of motion, and the psychological readiness to do violence to another human being without hesitance. Yeah, there's certainly a degree of specialisation for specific tools, but Pale Wolf's essential point, that armed and unarmed combat are not nearly so neatly divided as people seem to think, is essentially correct.
 
That, and nobody here seems to be seriously considering doing away with the Specialties/Styles niche, so pretty much all those distinguishing examples are covered by "Knives McGee/Mr. Fencer/Sir Boxington have their fighting style at +3 and are very sad when they can't stunt that they're using that style".

Because seriously, Specialties are cheap compared to the upper mortally-accessible skill levels, let alone post-Essence 5 levels.
 
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Honestly, it follows fairly well. A lot of learning to fight in my experience is attitude and body motion; things like footwork, positioning, economy of motion, and the psychological readiness to do violence to another human being without hesitance. Yeah, there's certainly a degree of specialisation for specific tools, but Pale Wolf's essential point, that armed and unarmed combat are not nearly so neatly divided as people seem to think, is essentially correct.

I think I'm misunderstanding your point.

What I'm reading is "Someone who has trained exclusively in...let's say Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for five years can walk into a HEMA club and be just as proficient at that as he is in his empty hand styles on night one". Talking real life, here.

That'd be me screwing up my reading comprehension, yes?
 
I think I'm misunderstanding your point.

What I'm reading is "Someone who has trained exclusively in...let's say Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for five years can walk into a HEMA club and be just as proficient at that as he is in his empty hand styles on night one". Talking real life, here.

That'd be me screwing up my reading comprehension, yes?
Yes, it would be you screwing up your comprehension for both @Imrix's post and @Pale Wolf's
 
So, make Solar Craft into McGuyver: the Charmtree?

Material Gathering Method
Cost: 2m+ Type: Supplemental Duration: Indefinite
Keywords: None
Mins: Craft 3, Essence 2 Prereqs: Any Craft Excellency

To the Lawbringer, all Creation is his workshop, stocked with whatever he may need by his authority as rightful ruler of all he surveys. This Charm supplements a Perception + Investigation, Survival or Larceny roll to scrounge for materials suitable to serve as fodder for a single craft project. By default this is a Difficulty 1 roll but the storyteller may impose a External Penalty on the roll based on how sparse material is in the region to a maximum of -5 for utterly desolate (for example, attempting to scrounge up metal for a sword while adrift in the acid seas of Kimbery or locating suitable herbs for a healing poultice on the edge of the Well of Oblivion). If the Solar has been imprisoned or some other force is otherwise attempting to prevent the Solar from acquiring materials they may impose an additional external penalty on the roll equal to their (Perception or Wits + Larceny or Investigation)/2 .

On a success the Solar acquires resources suitable for a mundane crafting project with a Resources value no higher than his extra successes on the roll (maximum 5), this costs 2m per dot of Resources. These materials are scrounged from local materials and have been expertly repurposed by the Solar to fit his needs (melting down the sands of Cecelyne to produce a glass as hard as steel to forge a sword, using concentrated Oblivion to burn out the impurities in a drop of blood to produce a healing draught and so on). The material retain their repurposed nature only so long as the Solar maintains his investment in them, after he has no need of the unnatural wonder his gaze turns aside and any object constructed from them falls apart or otherwise becomes useless.
 
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What I'm reading is "Someone who has trained exclusively in...let's say Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for five years can walk into a HEMA club and be just as proficient at that as he is in his empty hand styles on night one". Talking real life, here.

That'd be me screwing up my reading comprehension, yes?
Yes, although not hugely. Instead of 'just as proficient', say instead, 'not less proficient enough to be worth writing mechanics for', at least not when we've already got Specialties/Styles.
 
Yes, although not hugely. Instead of 'just as proficient', say instead, 'not less proficient enough to be worth writing mechanics for', at least not when we've already got Specialties/Styles.

The thought occurs that this discussion is probably better continued in the General Martial Arts thread instead of clogging up the Exalted thread with it.
 
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There's a general martial arts thread?

Anyway his point felt more like "... on week one, or maybe week three". It's going to feel familiar and not all that different, but of course if you directly apply things you're not going to get very far.
 
Speaking of incoherent nonsense...

No, non, negative, flag on the play, it's one thing to say "In the interest of simplification we will use exact same thing to represent unarmed and armed combat in this tabletop RPG" but this is a bridge too far.

Floyd Mayweather is a masterful boxer, but do you really think he can hang with an Olympic Gold Medalist in fencing if you put a foil in his hand? For that matter, strap some gloves on that fencer and put him in the ring with Floyd, he's going to get taken to school.
Yes, this clearly makes no sense.

We should stick with the current, entirely sensible model of Abilities, where Winston Churchill could breakdance with the best of them, conduct Mozart by kazoo, and would make an amazing rapper if he ever got fo-reezy, courtesy of Performance 5.

Or where Usain Bolt has a decent shot at any Olympic sport you care to name, from gymnastics to swimming to weightlifting - and can come back for a victory lap in the Winter Olympics, thanks to his Athletics 5.

Or where you need to be careful when you lock yourself out of your car, because any locksmith's Larceny rating means they'll be well-versed in drug-running, street lingo, pick-pocketing, and disguise.

It's a good thing we avoided making things ridiculous through abstraction.
 
Yes, this clearly makes no sense.

We should stick with the current, entirely sensible model of Abilities, where Winston Churchill could breakdance with the best of them, conduct Mozart by kazoo, and would make an amazing rapper if he ever got fo-reezy, courtesy of Performance 5.

Or where Usain Bolt has a decent shot at any Olympic sport you care to name, from gymnastics to swimming to weightlifting - and can come back for a victory lap in the Winter Olympics, thanks to his Athletics 5.

Or where you need to be careful when you lock yourself out of your car, because any locksmith's Larceny rating means they'll be well-versed in drug-running, street lingo, pick-pocketing, and disguise.

It's a good thing we avoided making things ridiculous through abstraction.

Aren't you one of the people always talking about how Churchill would not, in fact, have Performance 5, and that he should have a three dot specialty to get him up to those levels? Churchill being able to put up a competent waltz isn't nearly as much a problem.
 
Aren't you one of the people always talking about how Churchill would not, in fact, have Performance 5, and that he should have a three dot specialty to get him up to those levels? Churchill being able to put up a competent waltz isn't nearly as much a problem.
Then it's not a problem for Floyd Mayweather to have a three-dot specialty in boxing to get him up to those levels, and display basic competence at fencing because of his various transferable combat skills. Which, frankly, makes much more sense, because those are far more transferable.

It cuts both ways, if you'll pardon the pun.
 
I think this is just one of those points where the players and the GM need to acknowledge the limits of a P&P system and just agree to keep things sensible in their group.

The only real alternative is to have a bajillion abilities and specialties to account for everything.
 
Then it's not a problem for Floyd Mayweather to have a three-dot specialty in boxing to get him up to those levels, and display basic competence at fencing because of his various transferable combat skills. Which, frankly, makes much more sense, because those are far more transferable.

It cuts both ways, if you'll pardon the pun.

Sure, I wasn't really opposed to the idea. I was just surprised to see that line of argument coming from you is all.

One of the changes from Ex2 to Ex3 that I'm less a fan of is going to one-dot specialties. The only thing I can think of for why they would do it is if it was the case that specialties were mostly binary anyway; you either had one at 3 dots, or you didn't have one at all. Even that's not entirely satisfying since you could make specialties give the full three dots and just make it to where you pay a larger price for them.
 
Or where Usain Bolt has a decent shot at any Olympic sport you care to name, from gymnastics to swimming to weightlifting - and can come back for a victory lap in the Winter Olympics, thanks to his Athletics 5.

Actually I bet Usain Bolt would excel in an incredibly wide variety of sports. Dude is 6' 5" and can run really freaking fast.
 
I think this is just one of those points where the players and the GM need to acknowledge the limits of a P&P system and just agree to keep things sensible in their group.

The only real alternative is to have a bajillion abilities and specialties to account for everything.

Exalted has, generally, erred on the side of "broader" in the scope of its skills. As Revlid pointed out above, Performance covers everything from the skill of oratory to singing to breakdancing to rapping to imperial court poetry jams, all at once. Athletics covers everything from swimming to powerlifting to sprinting to kayaking to skiing, all at once. Melee covers all the weapons in the world.

It is the too-narrow ones which stand out, like Brawl and Dodge. Brawl can be swallowed by Melee, and Melee would gain one more weapon added to the list of all the weapons in the world. Dodge can be swallowed by Athletics, and Athletics adds "dodgeball" to the list of all the noncombative sports in the world.
 
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Actually I bet Usain Bolt would excel in an incredibly wide variety of sports. Dude is 6' 5" and can run really freaking fast.
That's just having high physical stats, and probably reasonably high athletics. Which would be just like a master swordsman is probably at least mediocre at a mace, because he has Dex 5 Melee 2(swords 3). Seven dice is a lot for mortals to be throwing at a problem, after all.
 
Not without training.

A heckuva lot less training than a normal person.

Sure, I wasn't really opposed to the idea. I was just surprised to see that line of argument coming from you is all.

One of the changes from Ex2 to Ex3 that I'm less a fan of is going to one-dot specialties. The only thing I can think of for why they would do it is if it was the case that specialties were mostly binary anyway; you either had one at 3 dots, or you didn't have one at all. Even that's not entirely satisfying since you could make specialties give the full three dots and just make it to where you pay a larger price for them.

The game, especially as I've always seen it played, really wants you to have a maxxed-out dicepool for whatever you consider your core abilities. In order to be competitive in combat, this really has to include your combat abilities (after all, each static die in an ability is worth at least one mote per round). So everyone is squished into Combat Ability 5 (my weapon type +3).

And then it gets awkward because we're trying to pretend these are real statements about characters and not just obligatory dice, so the guy defending with Dodge needs to (or at least, is heavily incentivized to) come up with something generically fluffy that will apply most of the time. Or with any other core ability: the "find the broadest acceptable specialty!" minigame, made even more crucial by the fact that you can't just buy multiple +3 specialties.

(Another awkwardness: if I'm a Righteous Devil user, can I take a "firewands" specialty? If not, then isn't it kind of unfair that the other guy was able to just do Melee (Swords)?)

None of this is actually interesting. Styles are a perfectly good replacement; reducing Specialties to +1 so we can mostly eliminate them without too much complaining is an OK answer too. Another OK answer would have been just deleting them and accepting that the system no longer mechanically distinguishes these things.

edit: another small benefit of this is just generally reducing the size of dicepools a little bit, which is nice
 
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