... that reminds me, I really need to learn summoning so that I can have Keris summon Blood Ape Giles.
 
Yes, Blood Ape Giles is essentially a fairly old (by the standards of the City) blood ape who realised long ago that he was much safer in the libraries of Orabilis than he was out on the streets, and thus started hanging around in them and occasionally bullying nanake. He had to have some reason for being there, of course, so he started reading and learning, and as a result has gained quite an education and something approaching intelligence and sophistication. Or at least a wily cunning, wideish knowledge base and healthy sense of caution that can pass for them in a dim light. He wears spectacles and a tweed jacket and has a collection of books and also occasionally reminds people that he is a fucking blood ape when his Ripper side shows and he tears someone's head off.

He is... sigh... also probably higher-Cognition than Keris is. And totally valid coadjutor material, for those interested.
 
TBF the steam engine and actual tracks are more a thing and the people most like to benefit from them (The Guild) couln't hope to implement them on the scale theyed want to use, at best you'd have urban transit rails, which is too advanced for a society stil laddicted to slave labor and so on.
I think you're placing too much emphasis on the appearance of things, rather than the function. The cable cars I mentioned on the last page are a combination of an urban transit system and a goods transport system. There's little difference between that and an urban transit rail beyond the lack of literal rails.
(Also, slavery does not inherently limit technological advancement. Don't act like it does.)
 
Anyway for those of you asking why Nexus doesn't have a train system?

It does.

Scavenger Sons, page 102:

"To aid travel between areas of the city, the residents of Nexus adapted the ancient ratchet-and-pulley transit system that once existed in Hollow. Beneath the streets of the highest hills, wage-earners paid by the Guild and the Council turn enormous axles, which rotate gears that connect to pulleys on the surface. The pulleys are linked by heavy cable, to which carts of all sizes have been attached. The largest of the pulley-cars in the system, which access both the Big and Little markets via Wander Street, can carry as much as a half-ton each and run from the Nexus district through Sentinels Hill to Firewander."
 
Anyway, Sail in Exalted is an often underappreciated ability, though I can't blame anyone for not quite figuring out how to use it- much like Ride. Sail is extremely important though, as it is one of the cores of mass transportation of goods and services across Creation.
Solar Sail is about being the best at sailing, which means you need to work at including sailing in the game.

Sidereal sail is about getting from Point A to Point B, automatically benefits the entire group, and is just really neat. If you're playing a Sidereal in a mixed game, take Sail.
Then shouldn't there be a little floating village in the middle, mostly as a stopover for travelers with a little fishing on the side?
What would be a good name for this town?
 
I find the idea of an ancient first age transportation system that used rails of iron to simultaneously create a creation wide transportation system and a permanent barrier against the Wyld to be a very intriguing idea. This would be a thematic extension of the way that the Order Conferring Trade Pattern was used to repel the Wyld and symbolically unify creation.

I would love to develop a creation that has this remains of this system in the background. It seems like it could have some fascinating implications in terms of linking together regions otherwise separated by large chunks of empty terrain, acting as a rationale for the existence of the Guild and serving as a splendid point of conflict between the various factions. The way that even the wreckage of this transportation network has a tremendous influence on contemporary creation seems like a good way of showcasing how the glories of the First Age are still relevant to the daily lives of the average person.
 
Question! Is there a smaller than average Blood-Ape, who nonetheless maintains a sizable empire due to his political acumen, military leadership and the precise aim of his thrown bowler cap with a brim of sharpened malfean lead?

Well, you see, there's actually a fairly strict genre divide / progression in my Malfeas.

For example, Ligier's layer (he lays claim to the entire innermost layer) is basically a Potemkin village / megacorp elite cyberpunk area, which basically exists to show off how incredibly awesome he is. That means that the entire layer's been rebuilt under his guidance with grand sweeping boulevards, towering architecture, and giant statues of him everywhere. We're talking full on, Handsome Jack level shiny egotism. He certainly has an entire stable of horses made of diamond. And there are spy demons who watch the area for people who are insufficiently appreciative or who litter, and vast numbers of demon breeds here are entirely custom breeds he or his Second Circles have made specifically to populate this place, and there are Ligier-designed automata everywhere - and even more hidden down in his vast war-machine arsenals. He treats Celestial Exalts who visit as high-ranking members of a rival power who get shown around his Look How Awesome I Am places and receive magnanimous treatment as long as they are suitably respectful.

Since he's been working on this place for five thousand years, it makes the Imperial City look like a hovel and Nexus look like blood ape vomit.

Hence, no bowler hats there. Completely the wrong genre. No, in Ligier's layer each demon breed wears garments designed to best fit the aesthetics of the layer, and failure to abide by the Code Aesthetic results in mandatory confinement in the Working Spaces in the underlayers until death.
 
...you know, I've said it before and I'll say it again- while I don't agree with you on everything (and agree with you on pretty much nothing involving 3e) and I prefer a pretty different thematic interpretation of Exalted than you, you come up with some pretty bloody awesome ideas and character interpretations, ES.
 
I think you're placing too much emphasis on the appearance of things, rather than the function. The cable cars I mentioned on the last page are a combination of an urban transit system and a goods transport system. There's little difference between that and an urban transit rail beyond the lack of literal rails.
(Also, slavery does not inherently limit technological advancement. Don't act like it does.)
It directs it though. IF you have abundant people labor, labor saving or people enhancing devices are less a priority.

The Cable Cars make sense (though how the hell are they runn, Conan the movie-esque wheels turns?) but seem a disaster waiting to happen as to railcars which can be sheltered and so on. Also I never caught onto those. I need to remember it is a postapocalyptic landscape. Just people emphasize the jet fighters and submarines (seriously! that have personal minisubs!!!) as to stuff like this.

Certainly Yeddim and other drawn trains should exist, they are just so good for hauling resources to better locations. Or because these are Solars and DBs we are dealing with here and culturally the Lunars have an issue with elaborate infrastructure and more dependent on the terrestrial spirits who don't take kindly to major landscaping projects and so on, chances are folks will move the skilled labor and so on where they need it to than the resources to process unless there is another concern, like manses, or strategic positioning.
Circling back to the fact that the people likely to accomplish it skip it, the people more to benefit would be harder pressed to implement it compared to the people who'd oppose it.


That last ties into my issue with the gods versus Sidereals and everywhere else. Demons are intentionally made to be player character useful, super armor, super healers, super sexual plus monster or baby making and such. Gods are intentionally made to be more.. well difficult to deal with but not beneficial or easily turned. The more useful the god or elemental the all but certainly most antagonistic and obstinate or broken. Until Sidereals....

Ahem. Okay. Personally I'm okay with excluding guns and rifles, at least to the level they can be, but what are your feelings on canons and so forth and not the over magical but less effective stuff either. Like fires lead to tear stone stuff?

EDIT: Aand that passage from Scavenger Sons... good catch.. good catch. Aaron and that answers my questions about it. Waged labor to prevent or at least address the slave issues, and it IS underground in parts.

I do have to wonder why no one has though to adapt it elsewere... then I remember Scavenger Lords tend to be nomadic and my point about the Guild just not having the raw authority, power, and control to when their main trade is flesh and goods.
 
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Ahem. Okay. Personally I'm okay with excluding guns and rifles, at least to the level they can be, but what are your feelings on canons and so forth and not the over magical but less effective stuff either. Like fires lead to tear stone stuff?
There is indeed an element in Creation that fills the role of cannon-esque artillery to tear apart stone and shatter the walls of castles.

They're called "Emerald Circle Sorcerers".
 
Anyway for those of you asking why Nexus doesn't have a train system?

It does.

Scavenger Sons, page 102:

"To aid travel between areas of the city, the residents of Nexus adapted the ancient ratchet-and-pulley transit system that once existed in Hollow. Beneath the streets of the highest hills, wage-earners paid by the Guild and the Council turn enormous axles, which rotate gears that connect to pulleys on the surface. The pulleys are linked by heavy cable, to which carts of all sizes have been attached. The largest of the pulley-cars in the system, which access both the Big and Little markets via Wander Street, can carry as much as a half-ton each and run from the Nexus district through Sentinels Hill to Firewander."

huh, why do they use people rather than a beast of burden?
 
The system bit, they need folks who are skilled at working it. ITs specialized too, hence the wage thing. So its labor, but skilled labor but one only good for that. Not unusually in industrial set ups.
really? it sounds to me like a horse mill pulling a cable. I mean yeah there'll need to be technicians but the pulling part is hardly a mental challenge.
 
So I was talking with a friend about my 'Exalted Zero' concept, and his response was pretty good, so I thought I'd lay out what ideas I've had so far.

As I said, the idea of this '0th edition' would be to eliminate extraneous material and hone in on what could make it a great game with unerring, laser-like focus ... as defined by me. I'm not really aiming to create a commercial product, so I'm not really interested so much in the toybox aspect that most successful RPGs rely on. To that end I'm aiming at establishing the core themes of Exalted as I understand them, in an aesthetically unified way. The aim is not so much to create a 'best of' Exalted - as we can often see, everyone has their own idea about what is best in Exalted - but rather an alternative that encapsulates some of Exalted's underlying ideas.

I admit that, even though I think my framework is interesting, it is quite removed from Exalted's (and I use this word non-judgmentally) cruft. I'll leave it to you to judge whether that is beneficial or it renders it in name only.

So in picking out the very core themes of an 'ideal' Exalted, I settled on:

1. Player characters are explicitly powerful, rather than implicitly.
2. Rather than objective morality, the setting should err on the side of consequentialism.
3. The world is animist and thus managed by active spiritual forces.

I find the 'mythic flat earth' aspect of Exalted appealing, and while I don't like the Fae, I do like the 'edge of the world' aspect. I kept this in mind while considering the section in 2E core where the writers lay out appropriate sources of inspiration. It goes without saying that Tanith Lee's 'Tales from the Flat Earth' is the progenitor of the Creation setting. Apart from the fact that they tell you as much, the Flat Earth is an island in the sea of chaos with heaven above, hell below and the land of the dead within. It's basically lifted.

After Lee's seminal series, I will confidently say that the strongest aesthetic element in Exalted is a combination of Wuxia and Chinese mythology. Certainly the modern day Creation that you play in, feels that way. While lensed through works like Conan the Barbarian and Elric of Melnibone, the Realm is clearly patterned to feel like imperial China, the Celestial and Terrestrial Bureaucracies are modeled on Chinese mythology, there's the emphasis on martial arts, the Chinese dragons, the actual Mandate of Heaven and so on.

This provides a really strong aesthetic chain that blends well with the mythic flat earth aspect. Some aspects of Chinese belief - tianxia, tianming - and some aspects of Chinese storytelling - jianghu - naturally supports Exalted's whole 'thing.' As such, I'm relying a lot on that, as it serves as a guiding light to create a strong, unified aesthetic. The trick is to incorporate these aspects without going awkwardly Orientalist.

So my vision of Creation is that of a flat plane of indeterminate size. I wouldn't think of it as being infinite, but more in the sense that no matter how far you travel, there's always more Creation to find. Rather than having geography, All Creation has definitions, and those definitions change as you move further from its centre. Within a certain radius from the centre, Creation is 'under heaven,' which is to say under the administration and management of the Celestial Bureaucracy. This tireless heavenly body acts to keep every aspect of Creation ticking over. When the heavenly paperwork is being filed correctly then Creation acts more or less as our world would: rivers flow, gravity points down, compasses work, grass grows up. When it isn't, those things don't necessarily work as expected.

The areas that are under heaven are subdivided into civilisation and ... I don't have a good name for this yet, but the rivers and lakes and forests. Again, these are intended to be definitional. Civilisation means something different here: in this case it's the patterning of creation to fall into a rigidly established order. Physically it appears as a kind of extended, ordered and peaceful cityscape. Have you seen Zhang Yimou's film Hero? Its vision of the Qin capital was vast, with towering walls and courtyards big enough to lose an army in ... and countless scholar officials and armed soldiers at hand to instantly fill them with serried ranks. Nihei Tsutomu by way of the pagoda. That image of the lonely emperor in an empty throne room large enough for hundreds is a very powerful one.

Civilisation is not physically built but rather comes into existence as the idea of civilisation is reinforced and takes hold. As that idea becomes stronger then civilisation naturally expands, and takes over portions of the rivers and lakes and forests.

This is the natural world. More villages and small towns than anything like cities. Here the touch and control of the ruling empire is lighter, felt only in the form of roving tax collectors, and the occasional prefect or magistrate. The hold of civilisation isn't quite as strong, and so it's more exciting out here, more lawless. Bandits, rebels, wandering martial artists, schools with famous masters, deadly wild animals. It's safe for the most part, but it can be dangerous for the ordinary person. If Exalted Zero existed as a functional game, most adventures would take place here.

Beyond the administration of heaven is the steppe. This is analogous to the Wyld, but isn't that kind of formless chaos. It's still a livable human environment, but it's rough, harsher, maybe a little bit more primordial, where the mountains still seem fresh and jagged. The temperature ranges from below freezing to stinking hot. The people who live there are nomadic. The freeness of the steppe is in direct opposition to the establishment of civilisation, so there's raiding one way and retaliatory expeditions the other.

Rather than think of these three parts of Creation existing on a spectrum of order to chaos, I'd prefer to think of them as being on two axes of potentiality and actuality. Civilisation has the least potentiality, and the most actuality. The steppe as the most potentiality, and the least actuality. The rivers and lakes and forests are somewhere in-between, and it would differ based on your distance from the centre. That's just fluffy nonsense, admittedly.

That's the Creation of my oth edition vision. What about the Exalted? Inherently I wanted to move away from the five splats of five aspect and try to do something that was a little more unified yet retained a level of flexibility in chargen. As I'm not a systems designer the latter part is more an ideal rather than something that can be easily achieved, so please bare with me if it seems like something that couldn't be implemented without a great deal of trouble.

So like, one of my favourite quotes is 'the abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power.' One of the things which keeps coming up is that people like it when being an Exalted is whatever you make of being Exalted. This is the consequentialist element I described above. Be the change you want to see in the world, those who have the ability to take action have the responsibility to take action, etc. With that in mind, I feet that having Exaltations come with built in affiliations kind of undermines this, a little. Obviously those affiliations don't tend to get in the way if you don't want them too, but there's a sense to me that you sort of get built in to existing organisations (this is just White wolf's style, really. You see it in the WoD). Solars don't get it as bad as other splats - Siderals are literally salaried bureaucrats, Alchemicals are government agents, Dragon-bloods are typically scions of the Realm - but it's still there.

I want to move away from that a little. I'd like to give options for people to define their character, but otherwise have the Exaltation of their character not come with a membership card to Infernals Ltd by default.

So at the basic level, there are Exalted. They're humans that contain a divine spark that give them awesome powers that can be used for good or ill. An Exalt is typically aspected, either to the Sun or the Moon, making you a Solar Exalt or a Lunar Exalt.

This is something of a serious point of divergence, but rather than personify the Sun and Moon as in the actual game (as Sol and Luna) I would just leave them as is. They are great lights in sky, one in the day, one in the night. As Creation is animist by nature, the Sun and Moon of course have great and mighty spirits, but they do not typically appear as anything. They just are, and they exist in a kind of symbiotic duality, representing different thigns while containing a little of each other.

The Sun governs vitality, physicality and growth. Solar Exalted embody this and so are physically powerful and can tend to the physical world.

The Moon governs imagination, form and dreams. Lunar Exalted embody this and so have mastery of illusion and can tend to the mind.

If an Exalt were to be aspected to both the Sun and Moon they would be very powerful indeed. As I am foremost of my empress' servants, I can say that the Scarlet Empress is the kind of person who could become an ... Ultimate Exalt ... whatever you'd call it.

Obviously balancing the sun versus the Moon would be pretty difficult. At it's core there must be a sense of the wuxia origins, so everyone needs to be able to get down into a martial arts battle at the right moment. Given the inherent difficult, the solution is to add more options and make it harder. In this case I'd like to draw from my favourite splat, the Dragon-blooded. Picking an element felt like the most meaningful splat choice I'd ever made, and I think you could do the same here. I had initially wanted to use the bagua for this, but that would be an example getting too Orientalist, and also no one would pick the element of 'marsh.'

In any case, you'd have a selection of elements with different properties. Fire, water, lightning, wind, wood, earth, etc. The ideal would be that, naturally, a Solar Exalt with the element of fire would be different from a Lunar Exalt with the element of fire, with some common ground between them. I'd like it so people would easily construct several meaningfully different kind of Exalts from the same basic rules, allowing affiliation to arise out of the story the player chooses, rather than the splatbook assigns.

So that's what I've developed so far. Obviously there's a lot of gaps, but this is just scene setting, the conceptual stuff.
 
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That's cool stuff, but I think you may be right in that it's divergent to the point that calling it Exalted anymore might be misleading. I haven't been in the fandom as long as most of the people in this thread i think, but my impression has always been that Exalted is tied pretty inextricably to its setting. Like, you can play Dungeons & Dragons in the Forgotten Realms, or in Eberron, or wherever, and it's still D&D, but does that hold for Exalted?
 
Isn't there an entire book of variant settings?
Yep;

It has a modern take on the standard Creation, a Sci-fi version set in outter space where the Exalted are the result of hyper advanced technology. Another where the Exalted lost the Primordial War and are now being pursued by the Victorius Titans as they flew in Autochton and a Kung-Fu shard that's based on the Street Fighter System that was developed by WW.
 
That's cool stuff, but I think you may be right in that it's divergent to the point that calling it Exalted anymore might be misleading. I haven't been in the fandom as long as most of the people in this thread i think, but my impression has always been that Exalted is tied pretty inextricably to its setting. Like, you can play Dungeons & Dragons in the Forgotten Realms, or in Eberron, or wherever, and it's still D&D, but does that hold for Exalted?

Given that the setting of Exalted has changed once every edition, I'd say yes.

I mean, 1E was a direct and cynical subversion of standard D&D and Tolkienesque fantasy tropes that reflected its creator's cynicism about authority and the regressiveness of fantasy. 2E was basically post-post-apocalyptic (the apocalypse had an apocalypse) posthuman sci-fi all but explicitly, and 3E is shaping up to be a direct celebration of non-European mythology. Sure, the trappings stay the same but the basic premises change so much I don't think it's the same setting even if they share names.
 
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