OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Wonder what's coming first, the Essence players guide crowdfund or the release of Pillars of creation? We're going to be getting more Getimian/Liminal/Infernal material soon and that's pretty hype worthy.
General Exalted Thread
- Location
- Darkest Australia
Nothing to see here.
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TenfoldShields
Lounging on a Hoard of Words
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeahhhhh it's- generally I think it's most rewarding to engage the Realm on its own terms. With the things it believes about itself, the history it creates for itself, and the tangible reality of in the setting. The measure of mundanity and grit mixed in with the demigod politics and dragons. It is neither Creation's one source of imperial ambition nor its only reserve of heroes, Creation's most successful empire sure but the past is littered with Could Haves and Might Haves and there's no shortage of current would-be contenders for that title. Like all nations it exists because of force of arms to give concrete meaning to lines claimed on a map.
It's mostly just people honestly? It's something I like quite a lot about it. It's mostly just people doing normal people things amidst the fantastical.
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- Location
- Nova Scotia
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It's also a little bit wild just as a starting sentiment to be like, "if the vast majority of the Exalted Host vanished tomorrow, it actually wouldn't matter, the rest of them have got this."
I agree! My position is better, not simpler. I'd made that trade in a heartbeat. I specified it the way I did because I don't think, like, cleansing the Blessed Isle of life would make things better, on various levels from the metaphysical to the moral killing the whole Realm at once would be corrosive, but I intensely dislike the framing of the Realm as these brave heroic defenders of the world who are also doing Imperialism. If they weren't killing a bunch of the other major supernatural powers constantly and weakening every culture they encounter, things'd be way better, especially on the "capable of fighting faeries" front.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
If it helps clarify things, 3e hews closer to Kaiyas perspective. That first and foremost, no matter what it does for people, the realm is an empire and that means exploitation. However, it's cynical about the Lunar guerillas(They've got threshold dominions and have been fighting the realm for some time) and whether or not they'd be any better if they somehow took over IIRC.
It also tones down the thousand dooms of 2e, a lot of deathlords are fine slowboating the end of all things, the reclamation isn't possible and Infernals are more agents of chaos/shaken soda cans the yozis are sending at creation. Sidereals do the destiny thing because creation being in alignment with planned Destinies bolsters it against the Wyld. 3e does however, put more focus on the impending Realm civil war.
mothematics
How wide is the concept of "you"?
- Location
- the bottom of a coffee cup
- Pronouns
- She/Her
This doesn't really have much to do with the 3e presentation of the Realm.
I suspect that a reason might be that we don't have that much canon material dealing with the forces of the Realm working to protect the Satrapies and Creation in general from the various forces (the Deathlords and lesser Dead, Fair Folk, Demons, malicious gods, fanatical Exalted, ETC) that wish to torment or enslave them. This should be a large component of Realm and Dragonblooded activity but it is overshadowed by the conflicts with the Solars (I think it was only 5 or so active prior to the breaking of the Jade Prison) and the Lunar exalted (a max of 300 spread across Creation)
The setting paradigm would have the most common target of the Wild Hunt be malicious supernatural beings preying on Mortals in violation of the Immaculate Order but it seems like pretty much all the canon coverage deals with them hunting down the extremely rare (on a Creation scale) Solars and Lunars.
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- Location
- Darkest Australia
Nothing to see here.
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I mean, as far as I can tell they aren't even the only empire on the map. The Realm is evil because it's an empire, but also because Creation doesn't currently have the conditions to create a world where not being an empire is a stable state. The First Age might be it, but 3e has actually occluded that further, and anyway it fell apart eventually. So long as being an empire beats not being an empire, and so long as the Exalted makes being an empire easy, as pointed out, you will just keep getting new empires doing new but different evils.
(It will probably be easier to take the Realm and turn it's mechanisms to solving the problem of empires, than remove the Realm and expect whatever new polities that fill the void to afford the spare capacity to not be evil. Mercy is the prerogative of the strong, and it's not a coincidence that the loss of the Scarlet Empress has led to an uptick in empire-related evils.)
- Location
- Darkest Australia
Nothing to see here.
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- Pronouns
- she/her
I'd say the main thing Ex3's done is toned down the extent to which certain factions exist purely to ruin everyone else's day and make the Realm look heroic by comparison. Most notably wyld barbarians and the forces of certain Lunars* which kind of ended up as off-brand orc hordes that just preyed upon other humans.
*Lunars can now create beastfolk by having mortals perform trials in a specially prepared demesne, the idea that beastmen were their direct decendents that they were breeding to be their soldiers created some really peverse incentives.
*Lunars can now create beastfolk by having mortals perform trials in a specially prepared demesne, the idea that beastmen were their direct decendents that they were breeding to be their soldiers created some really peverse incentives.
- Location
- Nova Scotia
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Honestly, I flatly disagree. "Better" is arguably true, but I think the primary thing this kind of change accomplishes is kind obviously that it makes the setting simpler. It removes the hard questions about the costs of fighting or even of trying to redeem the Realm. It removes the real meat of the Sidereal factional conflict by, essentially, taking away what they were fighting over. It produces a version of the setting that is smaller, less complex, and presumably easier to work with for the very specific kinds of stories you're describing. I would also personally regard it as significantly less compelling, but like, it's not like I have to play with this scenario.
I"m not sure why it wouldn't surprise you, because it's not meaningfully true in any sense, other than arguably demons and fae not being presented as pressing existential threats to Creation as a whole. I think that 3e at worst soft pedals some particular elements of the Realm in places, but overall I don't think it's actually betraying the principles you're describing, or feel that it has a positive view or depiction of imperialism or white washed view of revolution.
Like, these are the opening quotes for a couple of the Realm-centric books:
Article: "Every single empire in its official discourse has said that it is not like all the others, that its circumstances are special, that it has a mission to enlighten, civilize, bring order and democracy, and that it uses force only as a last resort. And, sadder still, there always is a chorus of willing intellectuals to say calming words about benign or altruistic empires, as if one shouldn't trust the evidence of one's eyes watching the destruction and the misery and death brought by the latest mission civilizatrice." — Edward Said, Orientalism
Article: "You must learn, child, that what would be wrong for you or for any of the common people is not wrong in a great Queen such as I. The weight of the world is on our shoulders. We must be freed from all rules. Ours is a high and lonely destiny." — C.S. Lewis, The Magician's Nephew
I don't think that putting two powerful anti imperialist quotes in the books is enough to make the line immune from criticism, but frankly, 1e and particularly 2e had their fair share of hamhanded racism and imperialism apologia, and are in a lot of ways significantly worse in their depictions of this kind of shit. Accidental or deliberate, that content was written decades ago and it shows.
- Location
- Darkest Australia
I may not be much interested in 3e but it does win points in my book by quoting Best (Worst) Girl from Best Narnia Book. Jadis <3
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- Location
- Nova Scotia
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- She/Her
Holden and Morke left so early in the line that it's basically only the corebook and a collection of dubious Solar charms that was wholly under them. Arms of the Chosen was had a lot of work done in it before the new developers took over, but the new developers finished. What Fire Has Wrought, the Dragon-Blooded book was, I understand, partially finished as well, but I don't think that the way the 3e version of the Realm is ultimately depicted has a lot to do with those the original two developers post the little that's in the core. Ultimately where it succeeds and fails in its depiction isn't going to come down to those two.
I don't think you have anything to apologise for, I wasn't trying to accuse you of being uncritically in favour of everything from 1e or 2e. 1e in particular has a lot of fascinating work in it even if it's a bit of a minefield.
- Location
- Darkest Australia
For all its issues and ra*e sidebars and whatnot, it was a major new RPG line launched with a black woman as its centrepiece cover character in 2001, and that was a wonderful thing. And it still has the coolest Hell ever (with, probably, In Nomine as close second, speaking of fascinating but flawed RPG settings from 25 years ago).
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- Pronouns
- she/her
As for the Realm itself I'd say Ex3 is more even in it's critique.
1st edition tended to supply obvious monsters perpetuating Game of Thrones style shocking violence to rally against without necessarily showing how they arose from broader negative patterns while 3rd edition tends to go more after the systems of empire itself itself while making it very possible to actually like the people presiding over them on a personal level.
1st edition tended to supply obvious monsters perpetuating Game of Thrones style shocking violence to rally against without necessarily showing how they arose from broader negative patterns while 3rd edition tends to go more after the systems of empire itself itself while making it very possible to actually like the people presiding over them on a personal level.
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HalfTangible
Only half sane (it's less cringe)
- Location
- Valkyrie, Primus
This sentence feels really weird considering how long the timeframe was between "3e kickstarter finishes" and "Holden and Morke leave"
You're not incorrect, mind you, in relative terms you're absolutely right, just... feels weird to read it that way
Like those memes of what anime actually looked like 20 years ago vs what you *think* they looked like 20 years ago
- Location
- Nova Scotia
- Pronouns
- She/Her
There are, at time of writing, fifteen published books for Exalted Third Edition, plus two splat books which have been successfully crowdfunded and for which we have the manuscripts already. Infernals is in active development, and there are several additional titles which are pretty late in the development process, so we can expect this number to increase in the relatively near future. The Third Edition Kickstarter ended in 2013. These books came out between 2016 and 2025.
To my knowledge, and I am willing to accept correction on the particulars, only three of these books were published under the previous developers: the Corebook (2016), Miracles of the Solar Exalted (2016), and Tomb of Dreams (2017, which I forgot about in my previous post). Arms of the Chosen (2017) was substantially worked on while they were still working on Exalted, and What Fire Has Wrought (2019) had something done on it before the switch, but I've never gotten the impression that it was as much as Arms. Certainly, the vision for Dragon-Blooded, the Realm, and in a lot of ways the larger setting is already identifiably different from what the Corebook implied in several places, such that my reaction to someone referencing their influence on it made me briefly outright confused earlier in this conversation.
So, that is 3/17 books that were released under those two particular disgraced former developers. If we're very generous, we can amend that to say that 5/17 titles that had anything at all to do with them. That is less than a third of the line, and shrinking. The vast majority of Exalted third edition content, including literally everything that actually touches on the setting in any more depth than the Corebook, was published under the current developers. We know that the current material has diverged wildly from what the original developers intended, because one of them will apparently not shut the fuck up about it in his sad little corner of Discord.
So... yes, when I say that they left very early in the line, I am quite comfortable making that claim, and do not think that it is even remotely weird to read it that way.
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HalfTangible
Only half sane (it's less cringe)
- Location
- Valkyrie, Primus
I specifically said you're "absolutely right" in this same comment
You quoted it
- Location
- Nova Scotia
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Correct, I remember that happening too. I then offered additional context in a post, which you then quoted, after I had quickly looked up the exact number of released 3e titles out of curiosity. It's more than I thought there were, honestly, even though I've like, got all of them? It's also funny to think that the majority (11) of these titles have come out since I got into Exalted in 2020.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
It is, in retrospect, remarkable how impactful Holden & Hatewheel were for how ephemeral their legacy is.
They did a great deal to keep the line alive in the latter half of 2e, in the face of profound apathy from White Wolf, and John Chambers in particular. Ink Monkeys drummed up considerable enthusiasm, and much as we might denigrate them as flame warriors from the bad old days of forum arguments, the flipside of that is they were passionate about the game and engaged with the fanbase about it. Quite often that was engagement in combat, but, well, twitter has long demonstrated how much energy that kind of outrage cycle can generate.
And for a meaningful span of time, that was kind of all there was to sustain the line. Arms of the Chosen was published November of '17, and H&H were ousted late in that books development cycle, so Vance, Minton, etc's crew have been at the helm for 7, going on 8 years now, but before that... Well, before that, Ink Monkeys was a defining influence on the game, after which they were the line devs, then there was the kickstarter for 3e, then there was the long dev cycle of the 3e corebook, and taken together these things make up a period of about 7 years as well.
Yes, in retrospect (and to a degree even at the time) we can see how much of this period was characterised by mismanagement and all manner of questionable decisions. But what matters is, that was the period. For 7 years, Exalted was the all-singing, all-dancing Holden & Hatewheel show, with people like Vance and Plague of Hats as a rotating assortment of backup dancers and chorus girls.
With so much of that conversation happening on the White Wolf forums, their loss makes it almost impossible for anybody who wasn't there to understand what that period was like. People did so much picking and choosing and homebrewing that Exalted 2e as it was played and discussed had little to do with the Exalted 2e that was published, due to a published canon that saw so few new books released, and the books that were released including stinkers like Scroll of the Monk or MoEP: Infernals ch.1-2, while the biggest names in the community were engaging every day.
So much of the sum of H&H's tenure consisted of blogposts and errata and forum arguments, things inextricably connected to them, personally, individually, not just as author credits at the start of a book but as usernames and avatars repeatedly interjected into the conversation. The vast majority of it is vanished now, lingering only in the memories of those who were there for it - but is it any wonder such a strong parasocial relationship left an enduring legacy?
They did a great deal to keep the line alive in the latter half of 2e, in the face of profound apathy from White Wolf, and John Chambers in particular. Ink Monkeys drummed up considerable enthusiasm, and much as we might denigrate them as flame warriors from the bad old days of forum arguments, the flipside of that is they were passionate about the game and engaged with the fanbase about it. Quite often that was engagement in combat, but, well, twitter has long demonstrated how much energy that kind of outrage cycle can generate.
And for a meaningful span of time, that was kind of all there was to sustain the line. Arms of the Chosen was published November of '17, and H&H were ousted late in that books development cycle, so Vance, Minton, etc's crew have been at the helm for 7, going on 8 years now, but before that... Well, before that, Ink Monkeys was a defining influence on the game, after which they were the line devs, then there was the kickstarter for 3e, then there was the long dev cycle of the 3e corebook, and taken together these things make up a period of about 7 years as well.
Yes, in retrospect (and to a degree even at the time) we can see how much of this period was characterised by mismanagement and all manner of questionable decisions. But what matters is, that was the period. For 7 years, Exalted was the all-singing, all-dancing Holden & Hatewheel show, with people like Vance and Plague of Hats as a rotating assortment of backup dancers and chorus girls.
With so much of that conversation happening on the White Wolf forums, their loss makes it almost impossible for anybody who wasn't there to understand what that period was like. People did so much picking and choosing and homebrewing that Exalted 2e as it was played and discussed had little to do with the Exalted 2e that was published, due to a published canon that saw so few new books released, and the books that were released including stinkers like Scroll of the Monk or MoEP: Infernals ch.1-2, while the biggest names in the community were engaging every day.
So much of the sum of H&H's tenure consisted of blogposts and errata and forum arguments, things inextricably connected to them, personally, individually, not just as author credits at the start of a book but as usernames and avatars repeatedly interjected into the conversation. The vast majority of it is vanished now, lingering only in the memories of those who were there for it - but is it any wonder such a strong parasocial relationship left an enduring legacy?
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- Location
- Ottawa
They left early books-wise, but time-wise they were there for a fair while. Kickstarter in 2013, departure in 2017. The fact that they put out roughly a sixth of the books in roughly a third of the edition's time to date is, well, probably an important part of why they got booted.
And they had a few years of running 2e, too. Which were more productive.
Pretty big caveat there. "Because I live there" is more than enough reason to save the world, and most Immaculates are sincere. The gameline absolutely intends to support straightforwardly heroic games starring Realm DBs. And not just heroic in the classical sense, you can be a good guy saving the world from the Deathlords or some other straight-up evil force.
That's why the Realm book has a little sidebar that basically says "yes, your PCs can be abolitionists".
And in general, I think it's better not to use your moral judgments of someone to guide your further judgments of their actions. It's too easy to do something like:
1. Chejop Kejak's many atrocities outweigh his tireless efforts to protect and preserve the world.
2. Therefore Chejop is bad.
3. Since protecting and preserving the world would be good, and Chejop is bad, his efforts to do so must be not merely flawed but outright fraudulent.
or
1. Chejop Kejak's tireless efforts to protect and preserve the world outweigh his many atrocities.
2. Therefore Chejop is good.
3. Since Chejop is good, his atrocities must not have been that bad after all.
Even though we're all aware that people can be a mix of good and bad, it's a hard trap to avoid. It's better to suspend judgment until the last step, so to speak.
So yes, the Realm is evil, but I think we should avoid any thought which could be phrased as "the Realm is evil, therefore..."
FWIW, they made a sudden and silent about-face on some of their more controversial stances before 3e actually got started. It's kind of hard to believe that the Daystar and the 3e core came from the same folks.
Given that they haven't even tried selling some of the "old" books yet, I don't think that was the reason. I think the heart of it is just that they had new ideas and wanted to implement them. Some of them (Hearteaters) would be better off without the E-word but unfortunately the fandom tends to ignore any splat without the magic label on it. Sales aside, it's terribly depressing to make something and have it fall into a void.
And they had a few years of running 2e, too. Which were more productive.
Pretty big caveat there. "Because I live there" is more than enough reason to save the world, and most Immaculates are sincere. The gameline absolutely intends to support straightforwardly heroic games starring Realm DBs. And not just heroic in the classical sense, you can be a good guy saving the world from the Deathlords or some other straight-up evil force.
That's why the Realm book has a little sidebar that basically says "yes, your PCs can be abolitionists".
And in general, I think it's better not to use your moral judgments of someone to guide your further judgments of their actions. It's too easy to do something like:
1. Chejop Kejak's many atrocities outweigh his tireless efforts to protect and preserve the world.
2. Therefore Chejop is bad.
3. Since protecting and preserving the world would be good, and Chejop is bad, his efforts to do so must be not merely flawed but outright fraudulent.
or
1. Chejop Kejak's tireless efforts to protect and preserve the world outweigh his many atrocities.
2. Therefore Chejop is good.
3. Since Chejop is good, his atrocities must not have been that bad after all.
Even though we're all aware that people can be a mix of good and bad, it's a hard trap to avoid. It's better to suspend judgment until the last step, so to speak.
So yes, the Realm is evil, but I think we should avoid any thought which could be phrased as "the Realm is evil, therefore..."
FWIW, they made a sudden and silent about-face on some of their more controversial stances before 3e actually got started. It's kind of hard to believe that the Daystar and the 3e core came from the same folks.
Given that they haven't even tried selling some of the "old" books yet, I don't think that was the reason. I think the heart of it is just that they had new ideas and wanted to implement them. Some of them (Hearteaters) would be better off without the E-word but unfortunately the fandom tends to ignore any splat without the magic label on it. Sales aside, it's terribly depressing to make something and have it fall into a void.
UrsaTempest
Don't Panic!
I was a little iffy with the new Exalted, but after reading several new books, yeah, the world really does feel bigger I don't feel they enroach much of niche of old Exalted types.