That's true! And utterly and completely irrelevant. The naive approach - literally porting the exact formulas directly from computer game to tabletop - is idiotic beyond belief.

I thought it was sufficiently obvious. I stand corrected.

It really isn't that obvious, because, given that I have brought up pokemon the tabletop rpg, people seriously have attempted to do something you term idiotic beyond belief and there are people actively playing it :sad:

What's important here are the models - the representations and interactions. Decision points, distributions of outocmes, contributing factors. Those examples demonstrate that, yes, we can have interesting, compelling, and believable interactions between political entities represented in game mechanics of some sort. It's not an implausible goal.

It's not an implausible goal, no. But, for my own wants for a game, it would need to strike a very difficult balance between abstraction and detail.
 
I've never seen an RPG do sailing and navigation properly, therefore boats are impossible mechanical ideals, fit only to serve as long-term teleportation from one coastal place to another.

This is a reasonable argument.
 
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Violation of Rule 3 - This is not civil. "It's about you." Is Practically Literal Ad Hominem
I don't care because his argument doesn't address the issue that abstracting the action to that degree saps the drama from the situation

Why would you just cherrypick that one line and pretend that was my entire argument?

Because that's what your argument, all your arguments for the past dozen pages, have boiled down to. You're sick of people slagging off 3e because its your waifu and you want people to shut up about stuff like it lacking a Bureaucracy sub-system and you are trying to assert that a story about high level bureaucracy is impossible to make compelling from a mechanical standpoint. Your argument boils down to 'compelling from a mechanical standpoint' being the same as 'boring' (to you). You literally opened this entire thread of conversation by asking everyone who didn't agree with you to leave the thread forever.

You don't care about the logistical scale of the game. That's fine. You can just... stop caring. Why are you bothering to argue with us about this for a system you neither intend to use nor think is possible to use in an interesting fashion?

Because this isn't about the subsystem. It's about you.
 
Because that's what your argument, all your arguments for the past dozen pages, have boiled down to. You're sick of people slagging off 3e because its your waifu and you want people to shut up about stuff like it lacking a Bureaucracy sub-system and you are trying to assert that a story about high level bureaucracy is impossible to make compelling from a mechanical standpoint. Your argument boils down to 'compelling from a mechanical standpoint' being the same as 'boring' (to you). You literally opened this entire thread of conversation by asking everyone who didn't agree with you to leave the thread forever.

You don't care about the logistical scale of the game. That's fine. You can just... stop caring. Why are you bothering to argue with us about this for a system you neither intend to use nor think is possible to use in an interesting fashion?

Because this isn't about the subsystem. It's about you.

Wow.

Are you really hoping that personal attacks will get me to stop arguing or what?
 
It really isn't that obvious, because, given that I have brought up pokemon the tabletop rpg, people seriously have attempted to do something you term idiotic beyond belief and there are people actively playing it :sad:
*shrug*

I now know what you think of my design skills, I guess.
It's not an implausible goal, no. But, for my own wants for a game, it would need to strike a very difficult balance between abstraction and detail.
Okay.

I can at least appreciate a demand for a certain level of quality, even if I myself would prefer an imperfect-yet-adequate system to no system.

Especially if I'm paying the developer in question for a game that's about that very subject.
 
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You know, I'm really done. I get that this isn't a hugbox and being heated and belligerent is just the way to go, but when you have no actual argument and just toss out ad-hominems to poison any argument to the contrary, I'm not sure what the fucking point is in carrying on.

I remember once again, the wisdom of Dave Brookshaw:


 
Wow.

Are you really hoping that personal attacks will get me to stop arguing or what?

Again, your argument is that you wouldn't like the system. Which is fine. You're allowed to not like a system. The assertion that nobody would like the system is perhaps a bit... egocentric? But you've basically been trying to get people to stop talking about a thing they like about Exalted for a lot of pages now by accusing them of BadWrongFun so I don't see where we can go from here?

You assert that such a system is impossible to be fun. Others say they would rather enjoy it. Okay? There is a lot of yelling over nothing there.
 
The assertion that nobody would like the system is perhaps a bit... egocentric?

When did I say that? Was it the part where I mentioned that nobody was allowed to criticize 3E because I just can't handle that shit?!

Come the fuck on, Aaron. Should I start accusing you of pretending to hate a perfect system because you have a personal grudge against Morke or something? That adds a lot to the conversation, doesn't it?
 
You know, I'm really done. I get that this isn't a hugbox and being heated and belligerent is just the way to go, but when you have no actual argument and just toss out ad-hominems to poison any argument to the contrary, I'm not sure what the fucking point is in carrying on.
Are you actually blind? People have been providing actual arguments for the last like ten pages, which you've apparently been ignoring. And you've been the main person causing the heatedness, like with this post.
Sweetie, you kept on arguing that nobody wants a system where you solve a complicated problem by a fiat dice roll very vehemently just a couple of posts ago so I'm not sure what the fuck you want besides winning an argument.
 
I've never seen an RPG do sailing and navigation properly, therefore boats are impossible mechanical ideals, fit only to serve as long-term teleportation from one coastal place to another.

This is a reasonable argument.

I just wanted to add, as a quick aside, that this is horse-shit because there are games that have handled sailing properly.

Meanwhile, in my opinion, Reign or Godbound, which have been used as examples of what Exalted should have done for kingdom and domain rules, don't handle things adequately, again, in my entirely subjective opinion.

I can't believe I need to emphasize that my opinions are my opinions but there we go. There we go.
 
This may surprise you, but a GM deciding who the bad guy decides to wack with the club is way, way more intuitive than considering how a nation will respond to having their ports blockaded.

Is it? Is target discrimination so easy, or is it easy because you don't want to focus on the problem, therefore it's easy? It's 'intuitive' in the sense that nobody really cares, which is valid. Nobody wants to memorize a threat priority listing and use that. But similarly, 'how will a nation respond to being blockaded' is entirely intuitive if you deal with it on the same level. "They do something to mitigate that blockade or to hurt the organization doing the blockade until they relent." And what they do can now be determined by the relative strengths of that nation, and...

Whereas if you don't even have a system, you aren't even sure of what the relative strengths of the nation are in a way that's mechanically rigorous enough to be useful. Because we're assuming that you don't have any political knowledge. What does it mean that a nation has rich natural resources or an elite army? What does it mean that their citizens support the White Man's Burden and how does that affect their actions? I dunno, because if I did, I wouldn't be the person you're concerned about. Which is the funniest part, really. If their argument was "the majority of our players won't know enough to play high stakes politics outside of repeating Game of Thrones plot points" sure, that's fine. Make that largely window dressing and focus on like, saving the world through high adventure and kung fu. But apparently we have it both ways. When asked why there isn't a system people are too stupid to deal with a system, but then when asked what you're supposed to do to play a god-king they go "you'll figure it out, you're a smart guy."

Oh yeah, that's totally the point I'm trying to make!

The thing is, in the no-doubt heavily abstracted system that Exalted's setting will demand, you're still starting in a vacuum. Masters of Jade had a well received rulership system, but it was still all stuff like "grow asset" or "attack asset" or damage enemy projects, and because it is so abstracted places the same large burden on a GM.

"What are the effects of the leadership taking an action" is actually at least as complex in society than "what action will I take," so your argument is effectively that if you don't care about something, it's not a large burden. This is somewhat tautological-you dismiss that something is complex simply because most systems boil down the complexity into something much, much simpler as they ought to do.

And if a PC decides to act outside the scope of these discrete actions, it's likely to get a GM to shoot it down because it's just not covered in the rules.

It is helpful, but really only in modeling inter-organizational conflict. This goes out the window, when again, the PCs act on an in character level outside the system's scope.

They give you approximate numerical stat values to a nation's tangible and intangible resources. Not something especially useful, in my opinion, except to get players more invested in acquisition or further expansion of these resources.

So what you're saying is that an Exalted rulership system might not look like REIGN's company system because the PCs have a higher power-level, and thus wouldn't basically be "just grounding the PCs in the game world plus a random plot generator" but would require somewhat more depth? This is probably why people want a Exalted system and consider adapting REIGN to it a second choice.

Or you could just have PC actions being sufficient to drastically change the balance of power between organizations so Realm Legion versus Random Town is a trivial victory for the Legion until the PCs get involved and suddenly the equations get much more difficult. Alternatively, the system is about delegation, and what happens as a result of your delegation, and thus is not a replacement for PC action, because it's explicitly a system for "I don't want to deal with this plot point, send my legions of Tiger Warriors/Harmonious Academics to make it fuck off for me." And why is that not a valid role for a system? It certainly won't do some things, but it will do others-it might not simulate political intrigue, but it will simulate the advantages of having an organization backing you, which will encourage people to have their own empires so they can focus on some things and not others.

REIGN's system is designed to fulfill several roles. The first is, surprisingly, telling you what factions are doing because core to every single Company is their motivation. You can't have a Company without one, in fact. So it might not be perfect, but at least it tells you to write down the Empire of N'vwls'hr's motivation. It gives you a set of traits representing a faction's economic, military, political, and natural resources, which give you ideas as to what a faction might do to achieve that motivation. It gives you a bunch of personal-scale actions you can take to temporarily raise these traits-but permanent raises require either spending XP, merging with another faction, or taking it from another faction, thus creating an in-game incentive for Companies to attack each other, whether literally or figuratively, to get more resources. Because large factions are made up of smaller Companies and these Companies don't generally share the same motivation, it also encourages internal strife.

It's not designed to be an AI tree that tells you what a faction will do in response, although it gives you plenty of resources to figure that out in the form of explaining actions and their consequences. It's designed to be a plot generator as well as a system that ensures continuity when some random motherfucker rolls 4x10s and decapitates your character in an unlucky hit. Probably because the assumption REIGN makes is that the players who are playing a game about leadership will have some basic ideas about what the leaders and people will be doing, much like Exalted makes the assumption that the players will have an idea of what being a god-king entails.

In fact, @Quantumboost's comparison to Civilization is actually pretty great, because what you seem to want isn't a system. It's an AI script-and those aren't impossible either. That's something that can actually be written in flowchart form and game designers have. It just doesn't exist in REIGN or Godbound because, well, they expect you'll be playing on that level and GMing on that level, rather than wanting AI bots to fight against.
 
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Are you actually blind? People have been providing actual arguments for the last like ten pages, which you've apparently been ignoring. And you've been the main person causing the heatedness, like with this post.

I've been making arguments of my own, I've been responding to what people have been saying, and I've been about as visceral and sarcastic as the responses I've gotten. And I'm grateful for MJ12 Commando's post right now, as at the very least it engages with what I'm saying instead of just trying to poison any counter-argument preemptively. Thank you MJ12Commando
 
@Deations: Disagreeing with you is not an ad hominem attack. Attempting to rephrase your own expressed position in a manner consistent with a good-faith attempt at understanding your position, even if incorrect due to communication errors, is not an ad hominem attack.

Likewise, sometimes I just use expletives for emphasis. I presume it's the same for others here.

I don't hate you. I find you incredibly perplexing, due to difficulty grasping your reasoning or motives. I have some suspicion that you hate me, and a bit of disappointment at the miscommunications that have been happening. But I don't hate you.

Sure! Disagreeing with me is fine and dandy! :p But...

Because that's what your argument, all your arguments for the past dozen pages, have boiled down to. You're sick of people slagging off 3e because its your waifu and you want people to shut up about stuff like it lacking a Bureaucracy sub-system and you are trying to assert that a story about high level bureaucracy is impossible to make compelling from a mechanical standpoint. Your argument boils down to 'compelling from a mechanical standpoint' being the same as 'boring' (to you). You literally opened this entire thread of conversation by asking everyone who didn't agree with you to leave the thread forever.

You don't care about the logistical scale of the game. That's fine. You can just... stop caring. Why are you bothering to argue with us about this for a system you neither intend to use nor think is possible to use in an interesting fashion?

Because this isn't about the subsystem. It's about you.

I still don't know how, in any way, shape, or form Aaron's post addresses anything I've been saying for the last few pages.
 
I've been making arguments of my own, I've been responding to what people have been saying, and I've been about as visceral and sarcastic as the responses I've gotten. And I'm grateful for MJ12 Commando's post right now, as at the very least it engages with what I'm saying instead of just trying to poison any counter-argument preemptively. Thank you MJ12Commando
But people have been responding to what you're actually saying. It's just that what you're saying is idiotic.
 
So, keeping things constructive: let's say we were going to make a basic Bureaucracy system for Exalted. What are some actions we would want to be able to take using the Bureaucracy skill? How could we categorize those actions so as to organize these actions into groups or sub-categories? I feel like Bureaucracy will encompass a lot of sub-categories because it's a very broad concept and could entail a great deal of possible actions and relevant situations. I know there may be some overlap with these if one tries to put them in groups, but just some general categories would be cool to have so as to better get a feel for what Bureaucracy really covers.

Based off 3rd edition charms like Frugal Merchant Method, Insightful Buyer Technique, and Consumer-Evaluating Glance, and All-Seeing Master Procurer, trading actions like buy/selling good are including in bureaucracy, though I wouldn't have thought it would be. So Barter might be a good sub-category of Bureaucracy.
Bureau-Reforming Kata and Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe help run the organization better by safeguarding an organization and making members follow important rules. Maybe Efficiency as a sub-category? Or is that too generic?
Subject-Hailing Ideology and Order-Conferring Action (aside from the anti-Wyld/Shadowlands part) seem to be kind of management related things, and the latter charm seems kind of a top-down authority related kind of Charm, so I sort of lump them together as Management related.
People in the forum have mentioned things like doing hostile takeovers of an organization (in the non-violent, legal way), and also reorganizing/balancing groups of members. These kinds of things sound very bureaucratic to me and align w/what I would stereotypically think of as bureaucratic in my head, but I'm not sure what the right word of phrase to describe them would be. Reorganization?

What else? What do you think?
PS/edit: just noticed the book mentions 'organizational, mercantile, and legal.' Are there more categories besides those that you think are missing or are needed in addition to them?
 
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It should not require a personal epiphany for someone to even attempt to engage with your arguments.

Agreed!

But people have been responding to what you're actually saying. It's just that what you're saying is idiotic.

Is it the case that arguments that upset you or that you personally disagree with are de-facto idiotic?

Is it? Is target discrimination so easy, or is it easy because you don't want to focus on the problem, therefore it's easy? It's 'intuitive' in the sense that nobody really cares, which is valid. Nobody wants to memorize a threat priority listing and use that. But similarly, 'how will a nation respond to being blockaded' is entirely intuitive if you deal with it on the same level. "They do something to mitigate that blockade or to hurt the organization doing the blockade until they relent." And what they do can now be determined by the relative strengths of that nation, and...

Naturally, this is what I assume would happen as well. But what do they do? I'm a newbie GM in this example, and I am not really sure how they'd deal with this situation. I've run D&D before, and I know basic aggro mechanics from computer rpgs, so I usually just have people focus on the biggest and most dangerous looking PC. As you say in your post, I don't have any political knowledge and I'm not sure how they'll mitigate the blockade or hurt the organization doing the blockading.

Whereas if you don't even have a system, you aren't even sure of what the relative strengths of the nation are in a way that's mechanically rigorous enough to be useful. Because we're assuming that you don't have any political knowledge. What does it mean that a nation has rich natural resources or an elite army? What does it mean that their citizens support the White Man's Burden and how does that affect their actions? I dunno, because if I did, I wouldn't be the person you're concerned about. Which is the funniest part, really. If their argument was "the majority of our players won't know enough to play high stakes politics outside of repeating Game of Thrones plot points" sure, that's fine. Make that largely window dressing and focus on like, saving the world through high adventure and kung fu. But apparently we have it both ways. When asked why there isn't a system people are too stupid to deal with a system, but then when asked what you're supposed to do to play a god-king they go "you'll figure it out, you're a smart guy."

Let's assume I do have a system in this example! Looking at the stats, I know that the blockaded nation is weak and poor, with a lot of unexploited resources and a smaller population. There really isn't much they can do to respond with military force, and without PCs giving them bonuses they're not going to accomplish much of anything with their dice pools.

Whelp, I'm still stuck. Hopefully my players can think of something when I describe the scenario to them.

So what you're saying is that an Exalted rulership system might not look like REIGN's company system because the PCs have a higher power-level, and thus wouldn't basically be "just grounding the PCs in the game world plus a random plot generator" but would require somewhat more depth? This is probably why people want a Exalted system and consider adapting REIGN to it a second choice.

Nope. What I described is just as applicable to Masters of Jade's system. I get a handful of stats, a rough estimate of what these stats map to, and a handful of codified actions that don't cover everything I might need. Then again, I wouldn't expect it to, but I'm supposed to be a newbie GM.

"I don't want to deal with this plot point, send my legions of Tiger Warriors/Harmonious Academics to make it fuck off for me." And why is that not a valid role for a system? It certainly won't do some things, but it will do others-it might not simulate political intrigue, but it will simulate the advantages of having an organization backing you, which will encourage people to have their own empires so they can focus on some things and not others.

And then what? Just roll for the Tiger Warriors and Harmonious academics off screen and see if they win or lose? If my player isn't interested enough to intervene in a situation directly, why would I want to bore him in the first place? So yes, if the situation is small enough or trivial enough, I can just have it dealt with off-screen, or else balloon into something much bigger that the group might find more interesting.

REIGN's system is designed to fulfill several roles. The first is, surprisingly, telling you what factions are doing because core to every single Company is their motivation. You can't have a Company without one, in fact. So it might not be perfect, but at least it tells you to write down the Empire of N'vwls'hr's motivation.

Sure.

It gives you a set of traits representing a faction's economic, military, political, and natural resources, which give you ideas as to what a faction might do to achieve that motivation. It gives you a bunch of personal-scale actions you can take to temporarily raise these traits-but permanent raises require either spending XP, merging with another faction, or taking it from another faction, thus creating an in-game incentive for Companies to attack each other, whether literally or figuratively, to get more resources. Because large factions are made up of smaller Companies and these Companies don't generally share the same motivation, it also encourages internal strife.

Yes.

It's not designed to be an AI tree that tells you what a faction will do in response, although it gives you plenty of resources to figure that out in the form of explaining actions and their consequences.

How so? What are the consequences of a successful Raid aside from increasing my Treasure and/or decreasing my enemy's? What happens in a territory that I annex? How do I handle a scenario that the game doesn't explicitly cover, like blackmailing someone with state secrets, or setting up a trade deal with a foreign power? And while the system tells me what the mechanical changes are from the codified actions, I still need to know how to reflect this in the narrative.

It's designed to be a plot generator as well as a system that ensures continuity when some random motherfucker rolls 4x10s and decapitates your character in an unlucky hit. Probably because the assumption REIGN makes is that the players who are playing a game about leadership will have some basic ideas about what the leaders and people will be doing, much like Exalted makes the assumption that the players will have an idea of what being a god-king entails. In fact, @Quantumboost's comparison to Civilization is actually pretty great, because what you seem to want isn't a system. It's an AI script-and those aren't impossible either. Which is something that can actually be written in flowchart form.

I don't want an AI script. I want to know if a system like REIGN's can actually help someone who is otherwise clueless (and god only knows why this person wants to play REIGN or Exalted or whatever specifically) map together an internally consistent scenario instead of just concluding it's too much effort and leaving it at that.
 
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I don't care because his argument doesn't address the issue that abstracting the action to that degree saps the drama from the situation

Why would you just cherrypick that one line and pretend that was my entire argument?
Hooooly shit, you actually stated your objection!
You're also wrong, for all the same reasons combat can remain dramatic despite being super fucking abstracted, and that conversations can be dramatic. It's about presentation, not the specific events involved.

It really isn't that obvious, because, given that I have brought up pokemon the tabletop rpg, people seriously have attempted to do something you term idiotic beyond belief and there are people actively playing it :sad:
Which one?
Pokemon: Tabletop Adventures or Pokemon: Tabletop United?
Systems that... Don't do that, at all?
Or is it something else that I can't find with a basic google search?

I get that this isn't a hugbox and being heated and belligerent is just the way to go
Don't forget condescending:
 
Hooooly shit, you actually stated your objection!

I did that more than once. Do you just read the first line of my posts, or skip around randomly?

You're also wrong, for all the same reasons combat can remain dramatic despite being super fucking abstracted, and that conversations can be dramatic. It's about presentation, not the specific events involved.

I disagree. I mean, what else can I say?

Which one?
Pokemon: Tabletop Adventures or Pokemon: Tabletop United?
Systems that... Don't do that, at all?
Or is it something else that I can't find with a basic google search?

Does it seriously matter? I could look it up but it still has very little to do with much of anything. But seriously, stuff like Same Type Attack Boost is ripped right from the games and translated 1:1.

Don't forget condescending:

It's a vital part of the SV experience, I've found.

Yep, you really don't understand what you're arguing against.
 
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I don't. I'm reasonably sure you're disagreeing with the things I'm saying though.
Then why "poison the argument" by insinuating that they do? You complain when others start to not be completely civil in their arguments, but you do the same thing in your own. You can't have it both ways: either complain about uncivil attacks while remaining civil yourself, or join in letting off steam by making uncivil remarks. Trying to do both doesn't end well. The rest of your statement doesn't really help things, either.
 
What I'm attempting to convey is that, perhaps people are failing to engage with your arguments because they are having difficulty digging through your posts and figuring out what your actual arguments are? Rather than it being out of actual malice or attempting to shout you down.

Probably, and I'm not angry with anyone over that otherwise even if "I join in letting off steam." But I don't appreciate Peori saying that I'm arguing in bad faith in a cheap and lazy attempt to shut me down.
 
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