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an example of nuance lost in translation then?

Or just not translated at all. The slur in question originated with the practice of posting a feminine looking character (the ur-example, as far as I am aware, being Bridget from Guilty Gear) on 4chan and then hitting 'em with the Admiral Ackbar "IT'S A TRAP"gif/meme when people expressed that they viewed the character as desirable.
 
an example of nuance lost in translation then?
As artificial girl notes it's not an attempt to even be accurate because it's not an actual translation, it's just a bad meme that was used so long people thought it was a legit term that was describing the same character.

Edit: also I just checked to make sure I wasn't misremembering, Bridget is not the same kind of character as Ferris as Bridget is his given name. The village he was from saw twins of the same gender as an ill omen and so either sacrificed or exiled them, his parents chose to raise him as a girl to keep him safe. Bridget refers to himself as male IIRC, does not have what is essentially a deadname, and his goal is to raise enough money so that his village will see the bad omen is just superstition. There's a pretty crucial element here, Bridget identifying as male, that means we can't definitively say they're trans. Although he's definitely some kind of genderqueer because he hates large muscles and does prefer a gender non-conforming dress style.
 
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That's not how I read it? I admit, I'm unsure now, as you raise some good points, but the way I originally read the comment was different. A character in the story being commented upon used the term, and the author was subsequently whacked for it. Chaotic Awesome was saying that they disagreed with the staff right to prevent a character within a story from demonstrating views that the author does not share.

Sorry for missing this earlier, but you have an error of fact here. The author got a warning for reacting dismissively to a user's concern regarding use of the slur, and a disclaimer was edited in at the start of the chapter. No points were allocated, and the chapter remains here on SV.

Edit: I believe the author subsequently decided to leave the forum after he ate a 3-day tempban regarding the Gungan Affirmative Action thing in one of his other quests.
 
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Yes, because how seriously a slur is taken unfortunately depends on who it victimizes. As has been adroitly pointed out before, someone saying "we should be allowed to argue for the use of any slur under the rules, including the n-bomb, also they're not slurs if you don't mean it to be, my community uses them all the time, all in good fun" would not be taken seriously or given benefit of the doubt, despite the logic being identical. The controversy around this particular slur only persists because trans identities are still considered by far too many to be acceptable targets.
Yeah but that's not a valid grounds to criticize this rule, because the rule is perfectly symmetric and makes no such reference, implicit or otherwise, to "is this target acceptable".

"Has this word been used to denigrate a class of humans (n>1)?" -> Yes -> "Then it's banned."

The only reason you'd ever need to bring it up is if you wanted one slur to be less/more harshly punished than others, while knowing it was a slur, which... not a great look, man :V
 
Oh on whether or not it was an actual critique of the rules, my view is no. A critique would actually have to engage with what the term means and defend its contextual use, as iButt did albeit in a manner which was ill-informed, but being wrong isn't a rule violation. What CA did was simply an expression of support for transphobia, pure and simple.
 
this isn't going away either, given the typical level of anime consumed by SV membership a lot of newer members are going to turn up having only encountered the term in an unexamined ostensibly humorous form and having grown attached to it. The jaded and frankly bored SV userbase then jumps down their throat about their first use of the term in full attack mode; the offending party feeling set upon proceeds to double down or try to save face and are accused of either bigotry or bad faith and everyone leaves pissed off.
You're missing that there's something the offending party is perfectly capable of doing before posting.

LURK MOAR.
 
Oh further, one aspect I didn't touch on was how this matter is handled in Japanese linguistics. This type of character is not referred to as a trap or even a cross dresser or josou. Otokonoko or 男の子 means "male child" but such characters are referred by a homonym which uses the characters 男の娘 which is pronounced the same but has an entirely different meaning with the first character otoko- or roughly male, the second being no- which is a participle for the no- adjectives, and the third character is musume which translated to daughter or girl. So the term in Japanese to describe these characters is literally male girl or male daughter, with male referring to their sex and girl or daughter referring to the social role adopted.

Oh yeah, it's very much an anglophone anime community issue, not something inherent to the medium. Though anime sometimes like to joke with stuff that veers on gay panic, it's less uniformly awful.
 
Warning: Alert: Thread locked
alert: thread locked

One day. The thread lasted one day, because I had to sleep.

It's locked while I look through these last half-dozen pages.




stop
@iButt has been infracted and threadbanned under Rule 2; bringing up the infamous 'are they gay' thing was not only problem, but certainly a very obvious one. @Ugolino has been tossed under Rule 3, Rule 4, and apparently not reading my specific warning that the thread staying open was going to require good behaviour. In other threads those threadbans would be permanent, but banning people entirely out of the ATC is something I am reluctant to do.



alert: thread reopened
Thread reopened.
 
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So, moving kinda back to the original original infraction, my understanding was that it was, rightly or wrongly, phrased as an in-character statement. Does this apply to all other slurs as well or to fictional in-universe slurs? For instance, a Renaissance-era character speaking in a bigoted, yet in character, way towards Catholics or Jews?

Your understanding is incorrect, which means the followup question is inapplicable.
 
As an interesting side note, this thread has averaged 1.25 Staff posts per day since the initial ChaoticAwesome ruling. Just an interesting bit of statistics.
 
So, moving kinda back to the original original infraction, my understanding was that it was, rightly or wrongly, phrased as an in-character statement. Does this apply to all other slurs as well or to fictional in-universe slurs? For instance, a Renaissance-era character speaking in a bigoted, yet in character, way towards Catholics or Jews?
To be less concise than Foamy, RavensDagger wasn't infracted for using the slur in their story. Its usage was in fact it was explicitly deemed an acceptable use by the mod, if requiring a content warning up top so people didn't get an unexpected gut punch. The only staff notice he received (which is a warning with no points, not a significant punishment) was for the following post in the midst of the inevitable argument it caused from people saying the usage in the story would be infracted:
...

We say fuck a whole lot too. This story is set in Hell, I don't think anyone expects proper language around here.
There were about three days of threadlock as mods deliberated and dealt with other things. Notably RavensDagger was far from the only one to receive such a warning. That was the time period when Chaoticawesome made his post that kicked this whole tribunal off.

RavensDagger was suspended at the time the tribunal was unveiled, but for a separate issue involving a Star Wars/Worm cross. Which I'm not delving into for being a bit of a derail, but was worth mentioning in case wires were getting crossed there.
 
Again, this wasn't criticism of any worth. Nothing is lost. Being in the right place would indicate intent to engage in thoughtful discussion about the rules. Try to think about why protecting disagreement with the rules is important. The goal is to enable people to debate those rules and ask for those to be changed if necessary. Protecting snarky passive aggressive attacks at the staff and people who care about the slur isn't necessary for that purpose.

There's ways to voice your dissent that do not leave the people the rule is protecting feeling like you're making a dig at them and their protection.
Why is the "right place" only in selected venues? Why can't I commiserate with like-minded people about how formatting my posts by splitting up quotes to show what I perceive as the parts of an argument is just a style choice, not a bad faith argument tactic? I don't expect the policy to be changed - there were plenty of arguments about it when the policy was announced, and I know my views are simply different than the staff making the decision.
 
Why is the "right place" only in selected venues? Why can't I commiserate with like-minded people about how formatting my posts by splitting up quotes to show what I perceive as the parts of an argument is just a style choice, not a bad faith argument tactic? I don't expect the policy to be changed - there were plenty of arguments about it when the policy was announced, and I know my views are simply different than the staff making the decision.
Because arguing against a stylistic choice and arguing against slurs being forbidden are not, in fact, equivalent. If someone got warned for spaghetti posting and you posted something supportive on their profile I'm like... 100% sure absolutely nobody would give a fuck.
 
Why is the "right place" only in selected venues? Why can't I commiserate with like-minded people about how formatting my posts by splitting up quotes to show what I perceive as the parts of an argument is just a style choice, not a bad faith argument tactic? I don't expect the policy to be changed - there were plenty of arguments about it when the policy was announced, and I know my views are simply different than the staff making the decision.
Spaghetti posting is against the rules because it removes context and makes conversations hard to follow. Complaining about the rule against spaghetti posting doesn't remove context, not does it make things harder to follow.

Using slurs is against the rules because it creates an unwelcoming environment for minorities. Complaining about the rules against using slurs does create an unwelcoming environment.

This isn't a hard concept to grasp.
 
perhaps more importantly cultural pressure means that the author literally would not be able to ackowledge Ferris as deliberately trans or else it would be effectively career suicide in Japan.

This is a little off topic but that's not really true tbh. It's a common impression and there are people who actually want that impression to be dominant, but it was only like last week that a show about tennis got into a character being x-gender, a family friend being explicitly trans etc.
 
This is a little off topic but that's not really true tbh. It's a common impression and there are people who actually want that impression to be dominant, but it was only like last week that a show about tennis got into a character being x-gender, a family friend being explicitly trans etc.
Oh nice.
 
I think I sort of get Squishy's position but I think the explanation for the reasoning has some issues. Whether someone is arguing about the rules or not is irrelevant to the question of whether they offend. The question is whether they actually offend.

If someone argues that the ban against <insert slur here> is bad because <insert group here> is bad and people should have free reign to offend them then that is obviously a rule 2 violation. If someone claims that <insert slur here> shouldn't be banned because it is not offensive then they may be factually wrong but aren't necessarily hateful. They could be coming from a position of ignorance instead of malice. In my opinion if they are persistent in their claims despite correction or show other signs of being dishonest/malicious like a lack of civility or bad faith debating then you have a problem.

Edit2: Of course if you actually insult someone by referring to them by a slur defence when the rules plainly state not to use that word in that way then ignorance isn't a defence because you are supposed to read the rules.

Examples

Good -
forums.sufficientvelocity.com

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Thirteen)

I'm beginning to think that this is a word that gets used in a completely different way then the circles I travel in do.

Bad -
forums.sufficientvelocity.com

Companion Chronicles [Jumpchain/Multicross SI] [Currently visiting: INTERMISSION]

Traps have nothing to do with transgender men or woman, and while there exists some that may wrongfully use it as a slur to refer to such individuals, the term itself isn't meant for them. That you go to the point of citing murders as if it had anything to do with this is something I find really...

Edit: Fixed accidental insertion of text from Squishy's post.
 
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This is a little off topic but that's not really true tbh. It's a common impression and there are people who actually want that impression to be dominant, but it was only like last week that a show about tennis got into a character being x-gender, a family friend being explicitly trans etc.
It does seem to be improving in recent years, yeah. Still a bit unsteady, but definitely getting better.
 
Spaghetti posting is against the rules because it removes context and makes conversations hard to follow. Complaining about the rule against spaghetti posting doesn't remove context, not does it make things harder to follow.

Using slurs is against the rules because it creates an unwelcoming environment for minorities. Complaining about the rules against using slurs does create an unwelcoming environment.

This isn't a hard concept to grasp.
Congratulations, you missed the point and instead of recognizing the parallel I was pointing out you tried to shift the goalposts to try and oppose an argument I'm not making.
 
Why is the "right place" only in selected venues? Why can't I commiserate with like-minded people about how formatting my posts by splitting up quotes to show what I perceive as the parts of an argument is just a style choice, not a bad faith argument tactic? I don't expect the policy to be changed - there were plenty of arguments about it when the policy was announced, and I know my views are simply different than the staff making the decision.

Did you miss completely the part of my argument about how discussion of slurs need to be mindful? This isn't like any disagreement with the rules. It's an especially painful ground for quite a few people, and thus shouldn't be something you rail about with your friends without care.

Again, imagine the same with the n word and the dude would be banned on the spot.
 
To be clear, nobody actually disagrees that people can grouse and moan about non-rule 2 (or rule 2 adjacent) rules on people's profiles, and that that isn't a violation of Rule 5, even if it is in fact just grousing and moaning and not coherent arguments or critique? As much as everything centered around how this interacts with Rule 2 and issues connected to that was the big deal that kicked off this firestorm, I think that the Rule 5 aspect is also important and shouldn't be a baby thrown out with bathwater slurry.
 
Why couldn't we openly enshrine double standards about mindfulness when discussing a certain specific rule, like Rule 2, just like we do about behavior in certain contentious topic threads vs normal threads? It could even be part of the rule itself: "extra mindfulness from the posters is expected, when discussing the specifics of this rule, and outright disagreeing with its need to exist can be considered equivalent to breaking it".

It would be something horribly undemocratic, yes, something I would never tolerate in a real life political system, but a forum isn't a democracy in the first place. I realize the irony of saying that while doubting the benefit of the stance taken by the Directors, but while the final say will always be theirs, I assume they are actually interested in making the majority of guests in their house feel that their concerns have been addressed. SV was founded on the principle, that all rules can be debated and questioned freely, yes, but apparently that's not what the majority of the (at least vocally politically active) userbase and Councilors seem to want to fully apply to the Rule 2 specifically, anymore.

Of course, the idea that even if you don't break the rule you can always at least question it, is something that comes naturally to people, so that's an issue when any first time offenses would need to be handled with great leniency - like with warnings, instead of points, depending on the context. Because the point would not be to be the "gotcha bigot!" "Thought Police" about it, like some people here were afraid, but to simply signal that slur justification debates, like the one that constantly seems to reemerge in this thread now, are unwanted and unwelcome.

What sort of allowed discussion would I even see happening about Rule 2 then? Mostly about the specifics about how its handled in the context of fictional works. For example: if somebody got hit with Rule 2 over their story, and someone expressed support over that in their profile - "I, for one, do think there was actually a clear separation between the words and thoughts of your characters vs your own beliefs" - then that would be the kind of disagreement with how Rule 2 got handled, that I think would be well within the line of acceptable behavior, neither breaking Rule 5.
 
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To be clear, nobody actually disagrees that people can grouse and moan about non-rule 2 (or rule 2 adjacent) rules on people's profiles, and that that isn't a violation of Rule 5, even if it is in fact just grousing and moaning and not coherent arguments or critique? As much as everything centered around how this interacts with Rule 2 and issues connected to that was the big deal that kicked off this firestorm, I think that the Rule 5 aspect is also important and shouldn't be a baby thrown out with bathwater slurry.
I don't think complaining about the rules can generally be taken as a rule 5 violation due to inciting violations. You can think taxes are too high and still pay them. I do think that people shouldn't be posting inflammatory opinions where they can be viewed but not debated and profile pages aren't really the place for debates. That is more of a Rule 4 thing though.
 
I went back yet again to the thread that started this nonsense and looked at the mod box. Here is what 1K did.

1.Explained that the word "trap" used to describe persons is a slur and not tolerated on SV.
2. Explained why the above is not tolerated on SV.
3. Explained why the word is a slur in that context.
4. Gave out notices.
5. Explained notices are not infractions.
6. Explained why notices were given out.
7. Gave out one infraction.
8. Explained their reason for giving out the infraction.
9. Gave a warning about funny ratings.
10. Explained why the above is ill advised.
11. Explained that the use of the noted slur inside of a story is permissible as long as there is no active endorsement from the author.
11. Explained why it was permissible.
12. Announced intent to add a disclaimer.
13. Added disclaimer. Did not mark story post.
14. Explained that moderator decisions should not be debated in thread.
15. Explained why the above is ill advised.
16. Pointed out the appropriate venues to discuss moderator decisions.

So this probably isn't every single action they took but I hope you get the point. What I'm trying to say is I don't get it. What debate was there? What right does anyone have to """discuss""" the staff being "bigots" after getting explanations for every action taken up to that point in the thread?

Why are we here?

Short of giving dude a mug of warm milk and chocolate chip cookies, it sure looks like staff did just about everything they could to avoid misunderstandings.
 
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