- Location
- Sydney
Idk my dude I feel like you wouldn't need to be asking this question if the topic was someone saying "I hate Asians" or whatever.
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Administrative Tribunal Commentary Thread
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Idk my dude I feel like you wouldn't need to be asking this question if the topic was someone saying "I hate Asians" or whatever.
Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
You sound a bit like Chamberlain announcing the Munich Agreement as some great compromise.
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Madam Carstein
Cheerful Middenlander Demoness
- Location
- Middenland
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
SV is, ultimately, a site we come to for fun and leisure. For some of us, that comes in large part through being validated in our identities and feeling free to express these identities, whatever they may be: ethnic, gender, sexual orientation, religion, nationality, just to name a few.
For some of us, I'd imagine, SV is a site where we can let our hair down and express ourselves in a way we wouldn't be able to in real life for whatever reason (such as, for example, living in a conservative household or area where being openly LGBT+ isn't accepted).
So maybe I should just stop being such a "liberal snowflake" or some rubbish and learn to shut my mouth. But honestly, I think it's perfectly reasonable of me to expect a place where I voluntarily spend a fair amount of my free time to be a welcoming environment for everyone, regardless of who they are.
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- He/Him
I'm not real convinced that's genuinely what you're trying to do. You didn't get off to a great start with a warmed-over paradox of tolerance and this false equivalence you're trying to force isn't helping that case either.
jenalysis
Midnight Weather Witch
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- She/Her
This pretty much has been proven to be the case. I've noticed a trend over the past year where the Council gets overuled more and more frequently.
Rules can't be cut and dry when you're dealing with situations as varied as what you get on this board though. Some folks deserve more benefit of the doubt than others, and some opinions as well. If you have everything cut and dry, then bad actors will be able to take advantage of loopholes in the rules, as what happens everywhere else.
That said, given that the formation of this site and lifeblood of this place has much to do with the trans community and LGBT rights in general, this decision is an extremely bad look and hopefully this is a one-time mistake.
I don't want to derail the thread by laying out and debating a full agenda. So this will be very abbreviated:
- Compassion from the (current) transphobes
- Understanding from the trans folk
- Less fear all around (although it can't be eliminated)
- Avoiding negative side effects (including violence) of prejudice
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- Pronouns
- She/Her
You're doing that equivocation thing again.
- Location
- Here & There
I have zero desire for a transphobe whisperer to "build bridges." I also have zero desire to be around transphobes.
Xairathan
All of the feels.
- Location
- Southern California
Why should the onus be on a group who routinely faces aggression to try and understand or even be compassionate to those being aggressive towards them? As Broken Base says (or I think they're saying), you're equating these two actions as two equal forms of understanding when they really aren't. Transphobes/people who aren't used to the idea of trans people would, in your example, only need to make themselves comfortable with the idea that hey, maybe people aren't comfortable with their physical body and want to express themselves in a different way.
Trans people, on the other hand, don't get such a one-time luxury. You're expecting them to put out in this specific case, and maybe that's fine. And then they go somewhere else, say another forum or to someplace in real life with someone else who doesn't know what being trans entails or doesn't understand why a person would feel such a way, and that trans person is asked to explain and put out again. And again. Every day. For every person who feels entitled to an explanation of transness and expects that trans person to engage with them in good faith because it's not that I hate trans people or anything I just want to understand, that's all. And maybe that person wants to truly understand, or maybe that person is a transphobe who just wants to sealion and ruin someone's day. But you are asking a group of people that routinely are subjected to requests for civility and understanding and the like to try and see where they're coming from when 'they' refers to a group that is at best ignorant and at worst hates everything they are.
Trans people should not have to try and reach some compromise or middle-ground with people who hate them. Trans people should not be forced to interact with people who hate them. As many other people in this thread have said, if this were a matter of racial slurs, we would not be having this discussion. You could ask a person of color to try and understand a racist, and the majority of what I said above would still be true: substitute 'black people' for 'trans people' and the audacity of what you're asking might become a little clearer. Would you ask a black person to try and understand a member of the Ku Klux Klan? Maybe. But ask yourself what you think would come of that, if anything at all.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Transphobes: "That person is claiming a gender in order to deceive me for their own gain."
Trans people: "You are a complete asshole for saying that."
This agenda: "Stop harming each other."
Me: Oh dear.
Like, it's definitely impressive and laudatory when a member of an oppressed group reacts with saintly compassion to an oppressor and ends up winning hearts and minds. One of the reasons why it's impressive is that it's rare. The lived experience of my trans friends seems to imply that the rule is "people say nasty things to them and they just have to Deal otherwise they're the asshole." I do not think it is right to expect everyone to be a full-time saint.
So, no. While my personal ethics promote peace, reconciliation, and empathy, I do not support an agenda that places as coequal points "oppressors need to stop oppressing" and "oppressed need to see their oppressors' point of view." Casting these as equal priorities is an implicit acceptance of the transphobic viewpoint that people calling them out are the real bigots, because it sets their bigotry and people's reactions to it in the same light.
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Galatea
professional Edelgard fangirl
- Location
- Imperial Palace, Enbarr, Adrestia
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It's not like many of us weren't transphobic before realizing we were trans, anyway, assuming we discovered that in our teens or later. I understand perfectly well where a lot of transphobia comes from (and it's not usually or entirely denial of being trans themselves, either, because most of mine wasn't that 
). It just makes me want to be around transphobes even less until they can get over themselves and stop trying to harrass or strip rights from trans people or worse, while trans people just want to be able to... exist like most other people?
edit: there was a sentence fragment at the end. there is no longer one of those.
). It just makes me want to be around transphobes even less until they can get over themselves and stop trying to harrass or strip rights from trans people or worse, while trans people just want to be able to... exist like most other people?edit: there was a sentence fragment at the end. there is no longer one of those.
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No such equation was intended.
Judging from the rest of your post, it also looks like I've underestimated the amount of anti-trans trolling our members have experienced. My mistake.
To the point of being able to tell actual hate from various other things. Particularly when those other things can be straightforwardly rendered harmless.
...and with that, I'm done discussing the "agenda" post. This is not the proper venue for me to elaborate on it.
Cadis
Proud Capoeria Angola Quintal Capoerista
- Location
- United States
Why wouldn't you be leery of people who dislike your very existence? People who rather you not exist? Like that's a pretty freightening thing. To be hated for something that you can't change and that you never asked for; hated for something that is literally just who you are.
edit: having read further, I see you don't wish to engage with this any further and thus I won't press, but I'll leave the post up.
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- Location
- secret base
- Pronouns
- She/Her
What other things? Please, tell me what are those "other things that can be straightforwardly rendered harmless"?
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
White cis (mostly) straight male here, speaking from the hard-won experience of a whole lot of putting my foot in my mouth: whenever you make a mental estimate of how much marginalization a marginalized person has dealt with, take your most pessimistic estimate, increase it by an order of magnitude, two orders of magnitude depending on intersectional issues, and you might have gotten close to the actual median. It's incredibly fucking appalling.
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7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
I'm not saying I don't believe you, but if none of you actually has a list of "people we're going to ban eventually" then I'm going to be highly disappointed in the Administration and their ability to deploy mechanical Doom troopers.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/They
There are several problems with @Graviator's statements, most notably the equivocation thing, but I think the biggest problem is this:
He approaches the issue with the baseline assumption that the opinions of transphobes (as distinct from their conduct; he has at least condemned open violence- small comfort that) are in any way valid or deserving of consideration and understanding, rather than clear and unambiguous condemnation.
As a "Christian minister on duty" (per his signature), he's quite likely doctrinally obligated to consider the transphobes' opinions (again as distinct from their conduct) as being morally and spiritually correct. Also, his comment that "fear"- unspecified whether of or by trans folks- is impossible to eliminate suggests that he views trans persons as legitimately scary to at least a small degree.
Anyway- I can therefore find no basis to argue against his position that doesn't lead directly back to a religious argument, and have approximately zero desire to get into a religious argument here on SV (or indeed anywhere on the internet).
I do think his position is fundamentally incompatible with both the rules and the culture of SV, and if he continues to attempt engagement on the subject it's quite likely he'll become the test case for "how long can you espouse bigoted views while remaining unbanned via nominal 'moderateness' and scrupulous politeness in expressing those views".
Edit: CLEARLY NOT VERY LONG AT ALL LMAO
He approaches the issue with the baseline assumption that the opinions of transphobes (as distinct from their conduct; he has at least condemned open violence- small comfort that) are in any way valid or deserving of consideration and understanding, rather than clear and unambiguous condemnation.
As a "Christian minister on duty" (per his signature), he's quite likely doctrinally obligated to consider the transphobes' opinions (again as distinct from their conduct) as being morally and spiritually correct. Also, his comment that "fear"- unspecified whether of or by trans folks- is impossible to eliminate suggests that he views trans persons as legitimately scary to at least a small degree.
Anyway- I can therefore find no basis to argue against his position that doesn't lead directly back to a religious argument, and have approximately zero desire to get into a religious argument here on SV (or indeed anywhere on the internet).
I do think his position is fundamentally incompatible with both the rules and the culture of SV, and if he continues to attempt engagement on the subject it's quite likely he'll become the test case for "how long can you espouse bigoted views while remaining unbanned via nominal 'moderateness' and scrupulous politeness in expressing those views".
Edit: CLEARLY NOT VERY LONG AT ALL LMAO
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Stop: Stop
- Pronouns
- He/Him
stop
I missed this the first time 'round. We're done here.
You've been infracted and threadbanned for six weeks.
I missed this the first time 'round. We're done here.
You've been infracted and threadbanned for six weeks.
I will say that until the subject was brought up on this forum I can't recall seeing the term being used to refer to trans people at all, insultingly or otherwise; only crossdressers.
Not that I doubt trans people when they say they experience it being used that way towards them; I'm just saying that it's perfectly possible to have never even encountered the term being used like that. That wouldn't justify continuing to use it after being told it offends people here, but it does mean that it's to be expected there will be a continual smattering of people using it without an intent to offend, or even to refer to trans people.
It should be noted that a number of forums have felt it necessary to ban expressions of support for Trump precisely because it has become a synonym for supporting bigotry, often used to get around rules forbidding the open expression of bigoted opinions. Bigot "code" is a thing.
- Location
- France
- Pronouns
- She/They
We have rules. Being an asshole while making a valid argument is part of what they're supposed to stop. Of course the argument was also the usual drivel, but that doesn't have to be relevant.
The problem is mostly people trying to defend their use of it after being told they shouldn't do it, not the initial use.
- Location
- not here any more
Corbyn. USSR anti-Semitism. Farrakhan. Ilhan Omar. Any time someone like...
RS here goes to say that "Jews can't have a state in their homeland, they don't deserve the same rights as other people".
People here do and have closed ranks around people saying (and doing, in Corbyn's case) anti-Semitic things. Leftists outside of here have closed ranks around left-Anti-Semites like Corbyn and Omar. QTesseract, I call bullshit.
So I'm to be banned just because I happen to like having a state where I'm not an oppressed minority like Jews usually were/are?
Some welcoming community, this place is.
grommile
nasty-minded old cynic
- Location
- NERV-Mercia
- Pronouns
- Traditional/Animate
Ir's possible to oppose oppression of Jews in one's own country and also oppose the modern state of Israel on the grounds that its foundation involved the ethnic cleansing of three quarters of a million Palestinians and its continuing policy towards Palestinians is oppressive.
Ritterin Sophia
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- A den of iniquity.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
My experience is that anyone telling you that Trans people need to be understanding of active transphobes is either ignorant or is acting in bad faith; learning and understanding require a conscious desire to want to understand.
My online experiences with transphobes and wanting to learn is that generally if they're not approaching me to ask a question they're not really interested in learning.
A good example of this is probably the trans military ban thread here on SV when trans people spent days going back and forth with a particular transphobe addressing every point complete with comprehensive analyses done by the EU, Canada, and even a prior report by the US military rebutting a new report put out under Trump which failed to account for the discrepancies made with earlier reports. With said transphobe dropping points without acknowledging they'd been addressed only to reassert them a page or two later as if people hadn't meticulously done so. The thread resulted in the trans people attempting to educate only to burn out in frustration because the user was engaging in this bad faith which only resulted in them getting hit by the staff for their troubles. Incidentally if you're not sure why members of the trans community here are extremely skeptical of the application of the rules and staff wrt transphobia I very much suggest reading that thread.
My online experiences with transphobes and wanting to learn is that generally if they're not approaching me to ask a question they're not really interested in learning.
A good example of this is probably the trans military ban thread here on SV when trans people spent days going back and forth with a particular transphobe addressing every point complete with comprehensive analyses done by the EU, Canada, and even a prior report by the US military rebutting a new report put out under Trump which failed to account for the discrepancies made with earlier reports. With said transphobe dropping points without acknowledging they'd been addressed only to reassert them a page or two later as if people hadn't meticulously done so. The thread resulted in the trans people attempting to educate only to burn out in frustration because the user was engaging in this bad faith which only resulted in them getting hit by the staff for their troubles. Incidentally if you're not sure why members of the trans community here are extremely skeptical of the application of the rules and staff wrt transphobia I very much suggest reading that thread.
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