[X] plan strong fences make good neighbors
Elysian Dream (Byzantium in the New World) (EU4 Quest)
Can we get an idea of how many people actually want to cede land to the Vinlanders? I would like to ask @jacobk to change that in the plan, since there's literally no plan proposed that refuses to cede land and I suspect a large number, or all of us voting for actually expansion would prefer not to, except that there wasn't a plan that rejected the proposal.
Let's not do something nobody wants just because the early posts after the update didn't propose a plan that included the option we actually wanted.
Let's not do something nobody wants just because the early posts after the update didn't propose a plan that included the option we actually wanted.
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Ceding land was a deliberate choice. The quest runs on RL logistics more than EUIV logistics, which means that conquering Vinland isn't in the cards for the next century or so. It therefore behooves us to form a united New World front with them to keep the Euros out.
Can we not at least send a counter offer? Their borders proposed claim way more land than they should have, based on their current expansion, and the tribes they "ceded" to us still have to be subjugated. It's clearly unfair.
- Location
- UK
I'm actually content to agree to the deal.
Usually, at least in my experience, Vinland expands into the rest of Canada by moving past Quebec and Montreal to Ottawa and Toronto. However, this deal effectively caps their expansion, meaning that their only future pathway to expand will be through the Hudson bay to the North. Not only will that be difficult, considering the heavy debuffs to colonial growth from the arctic environment, but the land will also be practically worthless in comparison to the higher development provinces further south, which we'll have access to.
So, yeah, the tribes they "ceded" to us will still have to be subjugated, and the straight up trade off might be a bit imbalanced. But we're still going to gain a lot from this deal as it eliminates long term competition when we want to expand westwards, and it ensures peaceful relations with our northern neighbour.
Heavenly Body
In the Stars
- Location
- Out there
[X] Plan Money Maketh Man
avatar11792
Et Sic Incipit
- Location
- Planet Earth, North America
[X] Plan Money Maketh Man
- Location
- US
[x] plan strong fences make good neighbors
- Location
- UK
[X] Plan Money Maketh Man
I think you guys are significantly overestimating the gains and underestimating the impact on us.
1. In this deal, ignoring the "future borders", we have given up land for nothing. This is a major diplomatic loss, and the expression "give an inch and they'll want a mile" applies. No border dispute has ever been peacefully resolved and ended there when one party simply gives away land. Even in the Lousiana and Alaska purchases, the buyer had to pay for it. When Germany annexed Sudetenland, they were more encouraged to go to war, not less.
2. The territory we are ceding is settled by the Pequot, who already despise us because we conquered them. By splitting their occupied lands, the rest of former Pequot land is more likely to revolt, while the transfered Pequot will cause problems in the new Vinland trading posts, leading to more border disputes.
3. If the tribes included as part of our "future territory" get wind of this deal, they will immediately turn hostile, just like how the US joined WW2 as soon as Germany's secret deal with Mexico was made. Even Haudenausee could be affected, seeing as they are only allies and not vassals, but they've been marked as being Elysian territory.
4. We will suffer unrest and possible revolts by ceding land. Patriots and the Church (Vinland is not Elysian Orthodox, or even Christian) will have a negative view of this. Our settlers at the border will also be angry. We are potentially losing a lot of political capital by doing this. Remember how the dynatoi panicked when we merely leased land to Venice at the beginning of the quest?
5. The area claimed by Vinland is HUGE. We are only allowed 2 unsettled provinces, while they claimed what looks like 10 or more. But all we're getting is a promise not to take control of some neutral tribes? Any observers will see this as Elysian weakness. France, for example, might look at this and say "They are so weak they agreed to a humiliating treaty without a fight. They are obviously far from being our equals and cannot be a serious ally."
Edit: I looked at the bigger map again. They are literally claiming 20+ provinces, half of which they have no settlements near.
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Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
[X] plan strong fences make good neighbors
Modus_Tollens
SCREAMING AT THE APOCALYPSE
- Location
- ALSO SCREAMING.
Right now we have more land than we know what to do with. Most of our territory is populated with squirrels and mosquitoes and not much else. Since we can't lean on magical game mechanics to solve that issue for us I'd actually be fine with having somebody else playing custodian over some of it. We'll still get access to resources and trade goods out of the area, the europeans will still be kept from forging a beachhead or trading port, and the area will still get settled into something worth having. Vinland isn't even set up to become a threat in any reasonable timeframe, as hemmed in as it is, as long as it never gets a reason to make deals with the Europeans directly.
Let them have their fun. The opportunity cost of actually doing anything about them is too damn high right now and they are a good thing to keep around.
Let them have their fun. The opportunity cost of actually doing anything about them is too damn high right now and they are a good thing to keep around.
- Location
- Florida
It's not a 'major diplomatic loss,' it's giving up one single province that's not worth much anyway in exchange for having our sphere of influence extend over the entirety of the Great Lakes. Border adjustments happen all the time, especially to large empires like we style ourselves. The territory claimed by Vinland may be vast on paper; but, like Siberia, it's incredibly far north and most of it's borderline worthless. Furthermore, I don't think that the native kingdoms existing in the area will be that angry over, essentially, the Vinlanders saying "The Huron and Iroquois are part of your sphere now, whatever happens south of this border isn't our concern."
On the subject of #4 specifically, they weren't objecting to leasing land; they were objecting, as far as I can tell, to Venice specifically taking that land. Venice, the primary architect of the Fourth Crusade; despite the mercenary attitude of the Venetians and increasing Byzantine desperation often leading to cooperation between the two, the Byzantines never forgot that. Giving up a small strip of barely-settled hinterland in a trade with a friendly foreign power isn't the same as surrendering 2/3 of your remaining territory to one of your most hated enemies.
The only concern I view as legitimate is #2, but honestly, we've smashed Barbaroi revolts and Barbaroi kingdoms bigger and more organized than the Pequot.
- Location
- UK
Yeah, it gets them loads of provinces they haven't yet colonised in the Vinland region. Likewise, it also guarantees us all the provinces we aren't anywhere close to colonising in the Great Lakes region.
- Location
- United States
@Eiri Fllyn - You are having a freakout over nothing. I'm completely fine with letting the Vinlanders claim eastern Canada for keeping our alliance strong. Besides, I was under the impression you wanted to conquer Mesoamerica? Do you just want to conquer everything? There needs to be a degree of focus and restraint in our goals and strategy.
It sounds like you didn't even read my post before responding, and strawmanning my arguments. I said nothing about wanting to conquer anything in my arguments. My previous post discussed why the treaty may have negative effects on our relations with Vinland, as they are encouraged to ask more even more and see us as weak. Secondly, we are not allied to Vinland. We have only been trading partners. See below:
At least, I don't recall us getting an alliance with them at any point after this.
No it doesn't. We get all of
They also claim much more than just the Vinland region. They are claiming everything from Ontario eastwards except the Golden Horsehoe. The territory claimed is larger than Vinland itself right now.
As I've said already, we are getting NOTHING out of the deal. We are not receiving "sphere of influence" over the entirety of the Great Lakes. We have received a promise of non-interference, should we attempt to extend our sphere of influence there. Those tribes do not belong to a Vinland sphere of influence in the first place, how could they be given to us? What's more, Vinland couldn't have challenged our influence in most of those tribes anyway.
The tribes covered by the territory claimed will not see it as simply sphere of influence. Take the Haudenausee, for example. They are not our vassal, but ally. In this deal, we are treating Vinland as an equal, but not Haudensausee. This is humiliating. To the other tribes, we are effectively announcing that they will submit to our rule or be conquered. We are literally drawing borders here, this is not like the Monroe Doctrine where the US simply promised to protect Central and South America from outside invaders.
On #4, you're missing the point. I raised the example of Venice and the dynatoi to show that the quest takes these things into consideration, not because I expect the dynatoi to be the ones to react. I specifically said "patriots and the Church" would be the ones to be upset. Vinland is still a heathen kingdom. Not a different brand of Christian, but actually outside of our religion group. An alliance can be argued to be temporary pragmatism despite the Church's misgivings, and we don't even have that. Giving settled lands with people of our religion over to a heathen kingdom, and allowing them to claim a vast stretch of territory amounts to admitting that we are just generally okay with infidels now. With our Patriarch authority at 75, this should have major consequences.
Frankly, I think the treaty is a farce. In real life, I have no doubt that this proposal would be treated as little better than an insult. It's overwhelmingly one-sided and unfair. Just because we hope to have a stable north doesn't mean we should accept a treaty that gives us nothing. It's so bad that we're not even giving up land to postpone an aggressor from attack. We're just giving them land because they asked for it. And we didn't even try to negotiate. In a real negotiation, when your counterpart is too eager to accept your first and overpriced offer without trying to negotiate, unless the counterpart is simply extremely inexperienced, it's a sign that you were tricked in some way, or they just don't care about the deal because it will be irrelevant soon (ie, because they aren't planning to honor it anyway), and if they Vinland diplomats are properly trained, they should be alarmed that the aggressive Elysian Emperor who just attacked Castile might be coming for them next, or preparing to take advantage of the 2 DIP Emperor who just gives away land for free.
I can see that I'm outvoted, however.
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I just noticed something. Not sure if this is a mistake or what, but our territory in the big map this update is different from the one shown for the Vinland border discussion.
We apparently already own the two uncolonized grey provinces allotted to us in the deal.
We apparently already own the two uncolonized grey provinces allotted to us in the deal.
- Location
- United States
Have you even been reading the recent updates? It was an actual decision we took to form an official alliance, you're quoting stuff from the author before that.
Look, the pure depth and effort you put into your fearmongering hysteria is something I have zero intrest in trying to combat so have fun, but please consider the fact that when it's you versus literally everyone else, it's time to sit down and have a period of desperately needed self-reflection.
- Location
- Space
Actually
I just noticed something. Not sure if this is a mistake or what, but our territory in the big map this update is different from the one shown for the Vinland border discussion.
We apparently already own the two uncolonized grey provinces allotted to us in the deal.
His mapping is right here. We are giving the some territory's we already possess so you can't really dismiss it as fear mongering as he is making some good points .
And i believe that this is not the first time you called him a fear monger here and i do agree that we should had debateda little more so everyone can say their opinions.
- Location
- United States
Yes, we're giving up a province. Two, if the other one wasn't a mistake, which I doubt.
DEAR GOD.
Then please, wail away. But that doesn't mean we should sit down and accept this.
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I said that I didn't remember any alliance formed after the quote. I don't remember every single detail of the quest, so if I'm wrong, I would like to know when we formed the alliance.
This isn't fearmongering. It's also not me vs. everyone else. There have been commenters before who said that they didn't like the deal with Vinland. In fact, it was only after my extensive analysis that the leading plan gathered a large number of votes to reverse the major lead your plan had, so clearly I have contributed useful analysis. I then directed my attention to another issue which I had previously prioritized lower because I was strongly in favour of expansion ideas and was willing to vote for a plan that agreed to the Vinland deal if it meant getting expansion ideas. I also don't understand why you're saying you have no interest in this when you are the one who responded to my analysis after the voting was announced over. You cannot blame me for assuming the three of you who responded have an academic interest in debating this, seeing as it won't impact the vote anymore.