You Are Wrong About Skaven Morality, or, Stop Citing The Warhammer Wiki You %*$%'s

[searcher8]

My personal headcanon related to the Skaven is relevant to something related to real-world rats. Namely, that scientists have found that rats, when forced to live in horribly over-cramped conditions, even if there's plenty of food for them, tend to react extremely negatively, generally becoming far more vicious and violent to other rats, even when placed in more open living conditions afterwards.

Considering how the Skaven are pretty universally described as living in extremely cramped, underground environments, and combined with their continuous exposure to Warpstone, a substance that is basically the unholy fusion of cocaine, uranium, and the energies of hell itself, it's easy to see both of those things being a factor on the Skaven that live in their society. Even if they aren't naturally like that, the horrible living conditions, combined with the warpstone will either turn them into the same sort of insane Nazi ratmen we know and love to hate, or it will kill them before they have any chance to make any sort of change or impact on Skaven society.

At best you might be able to kidnap some newborn Skaven children out of an undercity and raise them up to not be psychopaths like the ones forced to live in Skavenblight and the other undercities, but that runs into the issue of how all the other Skaven would likely want them dead on orders from the Great Horned Rat. After all, if the Skaven are shown that they have some possible alternative to living insane, violent, backstab-filled lives, then they might turn away from worshiping the GHR, and that obviously isn't acceptable to the ones leading Skaven society as a whole.

Also, while the Under-Empire is in fact fascism hours, I will say that tail-blades are honestly kinda a very cool little thing that I think should exists in more media because they're very cool as a 'tailed being fighting' thing.

But yeah, the Under-Empire is very clearly an authoritarian, theocratic menace... the actual question, and the one where the Warhammer wiki actively manufactured evidence while linking to citations that did not say what they said they did, was about the idea of the inherent evil of all Skaven.

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I mean, they were created by the Great Horned Rat, who isn't exactly what I'd call anything resembling a benevolent god. Is it really that hard to believe that something created by a deity that only fails to be the most undisputedly evil god in the setting because Chaos exists (and even then there's an argument to be made that the GHR actually is more evil than the chaos gods), would not let his creations have an opportunity to be very nice people? It's not really any different than how you don't see any pacifistic demons of Khorne, or any Lizardmen that are willing to go against the Great Plan of the Old Ones.

The complaint about not finding the planet of hats to be realistic stops being a reasonable complaint if we see that there is an actual, bonafide god that is genuinely real, and actively makes a point of supergluing the hat onto the heads of everyone that lives on that planet.

 

[Drachyench]

I'll note that Lizardmen canonically have engaged with peaceful trade with the Empire, Araby, and Nehekhara among the very least [with some dubiously ambiguous examples in canon that open the possibility to High Elf & Dawi relations as well].

This is the Skaven thread, yeah, but the general thrust definitely applies to other groups as well. Hell, to breach containment into 40K, there's Dark Eldar who canonically have familial love and part of the tragedy is their society being so fucked up by the time they find the way to describe and comprehend the feeling it's already too late.

 

[searcher8]

I'll note that Lizardmen canonically have engaged with peaceful trade with the Empire, Araby, and Nehekhara among the very least [with some dubiously ambiguous examples in canon that open the possibility to High Elf & Dawi relations as well].

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Well yes, but that's only because the Lizardmen recognize Humans, Elves, Dwarfs, and even Ogres, as likewise being creations of the Old Ones just like them. Therefore engaging with trade and other forms of diplomacy with the Order factions in a limited capacity still qualifies as serving the will of the Old Ones. Contrast this with how the LIzardmen are also hardwired to absolutely despise Chaos, the Skaven, Orcs/Goblins, and a wide variety of Undead, specifically because their presence on the planet goes against the will of the Old Ones and their Great Plan. If the Lizardmen didn't recognize Humans, Elves, Dwarfs, or Ogres as creations of the Old Ones in Warhammer Fantasy, then the Lizardmen would almost certainly be hell bent on wiping them off the face of existence too.

This is the Skaven thread, yeah, but the general thrust definitely applies to other groups as well. Hell, to breach containment into 40K, there's Dark Eldar who canonically have familial love and part of the tragedy is their society being so fucked up by the time they find the way to describe and comprehend the feeling it's already too late.

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Dark Eldar are kind of a whole different bag of worms though. If anything they're closer to vampires and their constant need to drink blood, in that it's less that the Dark Eldar are hardwired into naturally being evil, and more a case of if they don't horrifically torture people, Slaanesh will eat their souls. And even then technically they could avoid all that by joining a Craftworld, the Harlequins or the Exodites.

 

[Alex]

IIRC the last hint at a shared universe was an aos novel that had some characters traverse nurgles garden and get aided bt a mysterious huge silver knight... cough cough Draigo... cough couch

Dark Eldar are kind of a whole different bag of worms though. If anything they're closer to vampires and their constant need to drink blood, in that it's less that the Dark Eldar are hardwired into naturally being evil, and more a case of if they don't horrifically torture people, Slaanesh will eat their souls. And even then technically they could avoid all that by joining a Craftworld, the Harlequins or the Exodites.

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As an aside my other big warhammer army is Dark eldar because clearly I find the concept of a society of horrible treacherous social darwinists who live in a giant extradimensional hell city appealing for some reason.

 

[searcher8]

IIRC the last hint at a shared universe was an aos novel that had some characters traverse nurgles garden and get aided bt a mysterious huge silver knight... cough cough Draigo... cough couch

As an aside my other big warhammer army is Dark eldar because clearly I find the concept of a society of horrible treacherous social darwinists who live in a giant extradimensional hell city appealing for some reason.

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There certainly is an appeal in playing a faction that you don't ever have to worry about making moral justifications about, because you already know they're the most evil bastards around.

 

[catsweeb]

There certainly is an appeal in playing a faction that you don't ever have to worry about making moral justifications about, because you already know they're the most evil bastards around.

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How I feel as a skaven player on a daily basis

The literally forces of hell are rising up on the world and who cares I want to drag one of the moons into earth and huff warpstone till I pass out with fellow rats as we watch the world end.

 

[Alex]

How I feel as a skaven player on a daily basis

The literally forces of hell are rising up on the world and who cares I want to drag one of the moons into earth and huff warpstone till I pass out with fellow rats as we watch the world end.

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In AOS during the soul wars and the fight against Nagash the skaven invaded Shysh and accidentally discovered their own afterlife filled with untold billions of souls of their ancestors. Did this discovery inspire thoughts of self reflection or philosophical questions? No they immediately attempted to harness and weaponize the souls to make generators and ghost nukes.

 

[16 characters]

Outside wanting for Skaven to have a history and to have things that should be preserved, what other things Sharpwit had to make them good, or symphatetic?
And didn't Sharpwit was killed by Queek Headtaker, and his head?
The problem with Skaven is their biology and an active Horned Rat. Removed that and the Skaven would soon have civilizations that are not 100% awful.

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Wanting Skavendom to have a history isn't enough of a redeeming trait in your eyes to count as what I thought you wanted for your Black Swan character encounter?

I could be wrong but you might be thinking of Sleekit who was killed by his disciple Thanquol? Like yes he has his skull but I'm not finding any reference to him having killed him, which I actually expected too so maybe I am just a dullard. Note: Not to be confused with Sleekfur who was a nothing burger of a Skaven warlord.
What about Skabbicus and his revolt then for evidence that it's more of Fascism and Horned Rat being a problem than anything inherent?

Or maybe Ska Bloodtail if loyalty counts as a redeeming feature?

Again just to reiterate, no ones saying Old World Skaven society wasn't broken and insane and bad,etc, what's being contested is that if say the horned rat were to go away *cough* Revolt Revolution**cough* or be destroyed *hack sneeze* An ISOT in grimadark *sneeze hack* ( I must be breathing in too much warpdust in here)that something workable and closer to real rats psychology wise would emerge.

So what is you even mean as a problem biologically? All I can think of is the Black Hunger, and I'm not sure if that ISN'T from the Horned Rat in the way Ogres hunger comes from The Maw.

I'll note that Lizardmen canonically have engaged with peaceful trade with the Empire, Araby, and Nehekhara among the very least [with some dubiously ambiguous examples in canon that open the possibility to High Elf & Dawi relations as well].

This is the Skaven thread, yeah, but the general thrust definitely applies to other groups as well. Hell, to breach containment into 40K, there's Dark Eldar who canonically have familial love and part of the tragedy is their society being so fucked up by the time they find the way to describe and comprehend the feeling it's already too late.

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Araby has hired Skaven before without going belly up just feels like it's worth mentioning. I guess theres also stuff about them working with (as in not puppeted by) Vampire Pirates too but those skaven were alread litches or similar so it probably shouldn't count?

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

The Dark Eldar are interesting, because their system sort of inherently demands a choice of all the Drukhari. 'Will you make others suffer so you can live in luxury' is something that every powerful Drukhari has firmly answered 'yes' to. Is this cultural, rather than biological? Absolutely, the Asuryani and Exodites are of, more or less, the same species, and have their own methods of keeping themselves from Slaanesh, but the Drukhari that run their society knowingly and deliberately dismiss them because they don't want to give up their self satisfaction. If a young and highborn Drukhari wanted to, could they try and integrate into the Asuryani? Probably. It'd be hard, absolutely, but not impossible. So they're in that sense all 'evil' for doing this.

But you can note that I keep specifying 'powerful', 'highborn', etc. Because the thing is that the Drukhari have slave Drukhari too. And they don't get a choice! They have to struggle every day just to survive at all, much less to have the freedom to escape Commoragh's grasp. In a sense, they either commit suicide, or have bought into the inherently unsustainable system of tormenting others to extend their lives just that little bit longer. And that's not really fair to call inherently evil. But it does mean they willingly do horrible, horrible things to survive. I think that allows me to call them 'all evil', even if many of them might take the option to escape it if offered- see the Ynnari.

 

[16 characters]

. And even then technically they could avoid all that by joining a Craftworld, the Harlequins or the Exodites.

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This last bit I think is responsible for what I have been hearing about huge rebellions in Commragh after the Ynnari movement began with lots of lower ranked Druhks seeing the place as a sinking ship to leave as soon as possible when an alternative seemed available, which obviously vects had to spend lots of resources on to clamp down on.

Well plus the problem that it is a sinking ship now with the deamonic incursions and all that.

False EDIT pre post: Sorry I was prempted and was not just being a parrot/ eshin'd.

IIRC the last hint at a shared universe was an aos novel that had some characters traverse nurgles garden and get aided bt a mysterious huge silver knight... cough cough Draigo... cough couch

As an aside my other big warhammer army is Dark eldar because clearly I find the concept of a society of horrible treacherous social darwinists who live in a giant extradimensional hell city appealing for some reason.

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Since this is a Skaven thread, sort of, do you know where the bit wherein the Skaven accidentally contacted the Eldar on the radio before having a panic attack was from? Some endtimes book?

 

[Taricus]

Honestly I love this thread, it actually made me like skaven more because I love the idea the council of 13 are just leading around their population. Makes sense aside from the fact that skaven atrocities are on a whole nother scale to other skaven so it would raise awareness to probably not trust Mr grey seer.

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I mean, Skaven not trusting anyone is the default, grey seers included. It's just that said grey seer can kill you so you go along with it so you don't die. Same with most of your superiors in skaven society really; You do what you're told not because you like it, but because the boss is an asshole who's going to apply boot to ass in the best case scenario.

Needless to say, the skaven actively denying the geer seers is something they want to do and actively attempt the moment they reckon they can get away with it. It's just that ones who can do that are also toxic and that skaven culture itself is pretty horrible and has... pretty much inoculated itself pretty firmly in all social strata

 

[catsweeb]

I mean, Skaven not trusting anyone is the default, grey seers included. It's just that said grey seer can kill you so you go along with it so you don't die. Same with most of your superiors in skaven society really; You do what you're told not because you like it, but because the boss is an asshole who's going to apply boot to ass in the best case scenario.

Needless to say, the skaven actively denying the geer seers is something they want to do and actively attempt the moment they reckon they can get away with it. It's just that ones who can do that are also toxic and that skaven culture itself is pretty horrible and has... pretty much inoculated itself pretty firmly in all social strata

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Didn't think of it like that lol, now I kinda get it, the poor rat masses actively can't do a single thing to stop those in power and the society itself leads to mistrust, this then makes every skaven in power who ended up with it with a severe case of "better to be backstabbing than to be backstabbed."

In AOS during the soul wars and the fight against Nagash the skaven invaded Shysh and accidentally discovered their own afterlife filled with untold billions of souls of their ancestors. Did this discovery inspire thoughts of self reflection or philosophical questions? No they immediately attempted to harness and weapons the souls to make generators and ghost nukes.

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This is more beautiful than anything I have ever heard, thank you for this blessing of knowledge.

 

[Drachyench]

The point with bringing up Drukhari was to point out that even in a society with millennia of inertia (more millennia than Skaven have even existed!) defined by a similar constant inescapable pressure on the soul by a predatory god derived from their souls. They… can still feel love? Can feel loss. Have familial bonds.

One can absolutely lean into the scenery-chewing over the top villainy of Skaven society. But just as with Beastmen, there's nothing in WHFB to suggest Skaven are innately and irredeemably evil. At worst you can argue that without some sort of solution to their constant population pressure (which itself is a societally exacerbated problem) there will be a ready angle to exploit. But even that isn't quite true as once again see Pestilens they seem to get along quite adequately on secular grounds and are at each other's throats more as a matter of zealotry (which itself would have been shaped by existing theological baggage when they arrived in Lustria).

 

[AllenWalker]

my only interactions with this property have been through cultural osmosis, this website, and that fanwiki i now know to be unreliable.
it's like, i have irl friends excitedly-enthusiastic about warhammer, who'd tell me things about it or try to get me invested in it, but whenever i try to look anything up about it, it's all grimdark monolithic morality where there is no good anywhere or nothing to attatch oneself to. I just cant get invested in it. The one and only warhammer thing i've ever found that i've liked is the communist rat quest here on this site.

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Have you tried out a drunken dynasty of dynamic alcoholism?

It´s the diamond standard of warhammer quests here and imo, quests in general

 

[searcher8]

The point with bringing up Drukhari was to point out that even in a society with millennia of inertia (more millennia than Skaven have even existed!) defined by a similar constant inescapable pressure on the soul by a predatory god derived from their souls. They… can still feel love? Can feel loss. Have familial bonds.

One can absolutely lean into the scenery-chewing over the top villainy of Skaven society. But just as with Beastmen, there's nothing in WHFB to suggest Skaven are innately and irredeemably evil. At worst you can argue that without some sort of solution to their constant population pressure (which itself is a societally exacerbated problem) there will be a ready angle to exploit. But even that isn't quite true as once again see Pestilens they seem to get along quite adequately on secular grounds and are at each other's throats more as a matter of zealotry (which itself would have been shaped by existing theological baggage when they arrived in Lustria).

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The difference is that the Dark Eldar weren't created by Slaanesh. Quite the opposite in fact, and they'd even love nothing more than to see Slaanesh vanish off the face of existence. The Skaven however were created out of whole cloth by the Great Horned Rat, and considering what the Great Horned Rat is like, it's quite easy to imagine him hard-wiring the Skaven into being enslaved to his will in much the same way that the Lizardmen are hard-wired to always obey the will of the Old Ones, or how most chaos demons are very unlikely to outright turn on whichever one of the big four they serve. Skarbrand's something of an exception there I'll admit, but even Skarbrand needed to be manipulated by Tzeentch before he even considered attacking Khorne.

 

[ShyPerson]

Now this begs the question of how reliable the 40k wiki is? When looking through I definitely recognise bits in pages from the Fantasy Flight RPG books, but whole new meanings can be made from slight wording. And it's been a while since I read said books and I have not read much outside of that to compare the with the wiki.

 

[Flare]

Now this begs the question of how reliable the 40k wiki is? When looking through I definitely recognise bits in pages from the Fantasy Flight RPG books, but whole new meanings can be made from slight wording. And it's been a while since I read said books and I have not read much outside of that to compare the with the wiki.

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Like the Warhammer wiki, i.e. basically not. Use Lexicanum instead, and check the sources they use. It's usually better.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

The difference is that the Dark Eldar weren't created by Slaanesh. Quite the opposite in fact, and they'd even love nothing more than to see Slaanesh vanish off the face of existence. The Skaven however were created out of whole cloth by the Great Horned Rat, and considering what the Great Horned Rat is like, it's quite easy to imagine him hard-wiring the Skaven into being enslaved to his will in much the same way that the Lizardmen are hard-wired to always obey the will of the Old Ones, or how most chaos demons are very unlikely to outright turn on whichever one of the big four they serve. Skarbrand's something of an exception there I'll admit, but even Skarbrand needed to be manipulated by Tzeentch before he even considered attacking Khorne.

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The problem with comparing Daemons and Skaven is that the former are literal Warp entities who are spawned into existence as an extension of their Chaos God. Free will and Daemons simply doesn't fit together. But Skaven are not born from the Warp, they're a mortal race that is merely connected to their racial god. Comparing the two is apples to oranges.

Lizardmen are a stronger comparison but even that isn't indisputable, the Old Ones also massively tampered with Elves and possibly humans and yet they can fall to Chaos just fine. Whose to say that Skaven aren't closer to them instead of Lizardmen and thus can 'fall' (ascend might be more appropriate lol) from Horned Rat worship? Given the Skaven's chaotic and free-wheeling society I think it's more likely they're closer to humans in terms of free will then Lizardmen and as the OP demonstrates the case for Skaven intrinsic corruption isn't as strong as fanon would suggest.

 

[itsbread]

So there's some stuff in this thread and elsewhere about the Skaven being creations of the GHR, and I think this might also be, like, wikidrift, 'cause CotHR at least is pretty clear that the first Skaven were brought into the world by the Shaper (who was maybe a rogue Old One). The GHR came in later, or was born out of the nascent Skaven collective unconscious.

 

[Acolyte]

Yes but for such counter narrative to happen the rat needs to either make them cute or assign something that makes either misunderstood heroes, vilains or people with a heart of gold. Or anything to evoke a pet or sympathy towards Skaven.
Without those things the default assumption about rats and what they are is going to the on the negative side. Even to rats enthusiasts. Because Pestilens or Moulder or general behavior and look of Skaven will not evoke the idea of cute and cuddly even to rats enthusiasts.
As far as things stands from both of at outlook and personality wise the Skaven are evil and made to be despised by the audience. No examples to soften that image exists.

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Thanquol exists.

 

[thor2006]

Thanquol exists.

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He isn't cute or sympathetic. Thanquol is a monster.

 

[Acolyte]

He isn't cute or sympathetic. Thanquol is a monster.

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He is funny, thats all friends need to be.

 

[random_npc]

The difference is that the Dark Eldar weren't created by Slaanesh. Quite the opposite in fact, and they'd even love nothing more than to see Slaanesh vanish off the face of existence. The Skaven however were created out of whole cloth by the Great Horned Rat, and considering what the Great Horned Rat is like, it's quite easy to imagine him hard-wiring the Skaven into being enslaved to his will in much the same way that the Lizardmen are hard-wired to always obey the will of the Old Ones, or how most chaos demons are very unlikely to outright turn on whichever one of the big four they serve. Skarbrand's something of an exception there I'll admit, but even Skarbrand needed to be manipulated by Tzeentch before he even considered attacking Khorne.

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While that is possible, it is also possible that he screwed up, and Skaven do have the capacity for good. Just one that he makes sure they never get a chance to use. Alternatively, the legend of their creation is not perfectly accurate and the horned rat did not directly create them.

 

[The Laurent]

There are also multiple legends about their creation, though honestly the odds that the Dwarfs know jack shit about it is pretty low... but the Dwarfs do have their own "custom" version of the legends of, "how Skaven came to be and why they need to all be destroyed."

 

[Parth]

So I'm here thinking, most of the issues the Skaven face are because they're living in cramped conditions, and have issues with over population and food shortages.

What exactly is stopping them from moving onto the surface to live there? I they tell us the reason why they're underground, but how much of that is actually true and how much is just to paint themselves as the victims?