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You Are: A sector admiral of a strained imperium.

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Kairos123 said:
One, we'd be attacking with two ships. Two, we don't captain both. The other ship can afford to take a few hits from the skiffs, but if the battleship sneezes at it, it will die. Or surrender. Statistically, it would get picked apart by the multi-attacker penalty alone.
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Thankfully, per Packrat you can make Tactics+Speed checks to deal with the multi-attacker penalty, and Strategy checks are made at the beginning of battles to determine how good our set-up is. We not only have godly tactics but also strategy. Expect our good Commodore to have a means to reduce the multi-attacker penalty. It's not even going to be that heavy, because the outnumbering vessels are sub-scale and that halves the penalty. They're also going to be rocking low Tactics as their commanders are unlikely to be good (per Packrat the average cutter commander has Tac 8-9), and we have experienced crews. The Monitor is almost certainly going to try to punch us out, and our godly tactics being used to cover the CL and eat the brunt of that is what I expect will happen.

Kairos123 said:
Three, while you are correct that we could probably take on their entire fleet with just the defenders, that is not the case if they have heavy defenses. Remember that pirate base? How durable the dang thing was and how many rounds it took to destroy when backed up? That is what we would be in for. These defenses would be shooting at us every single round of combat.
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Actually, you're wrong. The defenses we got to see an example of in this very update. They were no threat to us, because they force a Strategy vs Strategy check. The enemy has to come to us, because as demonstrated by our PC, a HC in our hands can just dance like a butterfly and sting like a bee against enemy forts. What's going to happen is that we pick apart the defenses until we can engage the fleet, or they sortie because we're picking them apart without taking hits.

Kairos123 said:
Four, the enemy Commodore is going to remain under the cover of the heaviest defenses despite heavy pressure to mobilize. He's either cowardly and stupid, because this is going to bite him in the ass, or he's smart enough to realize the situation he's in. Him having good strategy and tactics would be enough to flip the delicate balance required for the Endeavor to solo everything.
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If he was good enough to be a serious threat, he wouldn't be here. The Nasty Vice-Admiral that we beat had Tac/Strat 14 and she had a BC and sector command; the Nasties promote for competence over stuff like noble connections, just like a 21st-century military, so if he was good he would be elsewhere. The monitor captain who doesn't even keep his ship loaded with ammunition is NOT a high tactics/strategy genius, he's a washed-up backwater commander who apparently can't even keep his ammo lockers full.

My largest concern, though, deals more with operational concerns.

We know that the Nasties are sending in reinforcements...

Packrat said:
Right now though the NASP core worlds are rushing heavy reinforcements to the border, a dozen or more older cruisers and possibly a squadron of battleships to reinforce New Theia.
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And this update we got confirmation that battleships are inbound; this system actually supports 3 of them. Against that we have 3 modern cruisers coming in, our Endeavor, and then our CLs/corvettes. And the Nasties are smarting from the pounding we've given them, they are almost certainly going to strike. One battleship and a couple supporting corvettes will go through anything we have the long way unless we are personally present and even that is a stretch if it comes with some cruiser escorts. Unless we are very, very lucky or can purchase a BC and have it delivered immediately*, we are in very big trouble coming up.

The best way to reduce this trouble is to force political concerns to tie up as many of these cruisers and battleships down. If we literally blow up every defense and every ship this system holds (the richest in local space) the screaming that this direct democracy will unleash will force the Nasties to keep a very large percentage of their ships at home. Maybe enough that the only task force that can be spared to hit us is one that we can actually deal with.

We can be in a non-ideal tactical position of our choosing this turn, or we can have a really non-ideal tactical position not of our choosing forced on us in the next turn or two when the Nasties get here and decide to start cracking heads. If they toss 2 BBs, 4 HCs, and some support ships at us we're dead and there's nothing even our high Strat/Tac can do about it. The only way to avoid that is to tie them up at home, and the best way to do that is to strip this system of it's defenses.

All this bleating about how now is the time to return home? It's tactically correct, sure, but it is ABSOLUTELY wrong on the strategic level. We've chosen to escalate hard and they are reverse-escalating right back at us with guns we absolutely cannot match with our current fleet. We are riding the tiger. Jumping off just means that the tiger catches and mauls us.

(*If we can get a BC rapidly with wealth, we need to. We can pull in a share with PC and spend wealth on the BC. That capital ship might be the one thing between us and annihilation. We can figure out funding it later.)
 
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Historically, terror raids don't increase internal disunity; they increase unity and a determination to punish the invader/attacker. So terror bombing and slave raids aren't going to do much to actually sow chaos. It'll make them more likely to want to fight us, if anything.
Adhoc vote count started by Rat King on Sep 3, 2018 at 1:18 AM, finished with 99 posts and 47 votes.
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[X] Loot Them. You have almost three battalions of power armoured marines backed by the guns of your cruisers. Storm the starports, seize civilian shipping, load everything of value you can confiscate over the course of a week. (Will take about 7 days, will grant Wealth depending upon Strategy rolls, in the range of 10-50).

[X] Return Home. You have achieved your goals, return home with your prizes and/or loot.
 
The defenses we just faced were on the periphery defensively speaking. Attacking would probably mean facing something closer to that pirate lair from a while back if not much more lethal, along with the monitor. I also really don't get the insistence that because its a direct democracy it will instantly come crashing to the ground with a single terror raid, and become wracked by internal dissent. It's survived long enough to build up its population to 7 Billion. It is the most high tech, and powerful of all the border worlds. You don't get that way by losing your collective minds every time someone rolls up to the door and busts it down. We've forced their defenders into a do or die situation. They are the very last thing between them and their homeworld. I guarantee you that an attack would mean the ships left fight with tooth and nail in a way we haven't yet seen. That doesn't exactly make up for inexperience and lack of training, but its far from a discountable factor.

Escalating this conflict comes with it terrible risk. The last thing the Imperial Household needs at this moment is renewed conflict with the NASP. Our victory in the last war was at best Pyrrhic, and at worst the beginning of the end of the Empire. With our hotheaded reinforcements coming in this sector is now a powderkeg, and adding more tinder should not be a choice we make.
 
[X] Demand Tribute. Demand that the local citizens surrender then pay tribute, loading all available shipping with high value manufactured goods before sending them up into space with sacrificial crews. (Time taken and yield variable, depending upon Diplomacy and Subterfuge rolls, in the range of 5-75 Wealth)
[X] Return Home. You have achieved your goals, return home with your prizes and/or loot.
 
Sturmi said:
The defenses we just faced were on the periphery defensively speaking. Attacking would probably mean facing something closer to that pirate lair from a while back if not much more lethal, along with the monitor. I also really don't get the insistence that because its a direct democracy it will instantly come crashing to the ground with a single terror raid, and become wracked by internal dissent. It's survived long enough to build up its population to 7 Billion. It is the most high tech, and powerful of all the border worlds. You don't get that way by losing your collective minds every time someone rolls up to the door and busts it down. We've forced their defenders into a do or die situation. They are the very last thing between them and their homeworld. I guarantee you that an attack would mean the ships left fight with tooth and nail in a way we haven't yet seen. That doesn't exactly make up for inexperience and lack of training, but its far from a discountable factor.
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Packrat has stated before that defenses can't actually stop a determined foe able to take the time to wear them down. So far we've seen defenses and how they act both here and at Imhotep (notice that the Strike Cruisers there were able to reduce the defenses without more than being slowed down). They're a tarpit, not really a means to hurt an attacking fleet unless said fleet is on a short time-table. Your conclusion that the defenses will somehow act like the pirate base is not backed by evidence whatsoever.

In addition, I'm not stating that the democracy will just crack and fall into turmoil. The point of raiding them hard and stripping all their defenses is to get them to put political pressure on the military to hold as many ships possible back on the defensive instead of sending them forward to hit us. Every ship that's sitting back at home guarding is one less they can put in the field to crush us with, which is a big deal when they're going to have as many BBs in the sector as we have HCs. The fact that they are a direct democracy means that their people are going to be making decisions with their emotions more than realistic politics, and "ohgodohgodohgod defend us against the Demon Strauss who ripped apart the whole system like it was nothing" is a very useful way for us to use their politics against them.

Sturmi said:
Escalating this conflict comes with it terrible risk. The last thing the Imperial Household needs at this moment is renewed conflict with the NASP. Our victory in the last war was at best Pyrrhic, and at worst the beginning of the end of the Empire. With our hotheaded reinforcements coming in this sector is now a powderkeg, and adding more tinder should not be a choice we make.
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Unfortunately our superiors disagree, since we were ordered to take the fight to the NASP and they're sending us a cruiser squadron to help us do it.
 
[X] Demand Tribute. Demand that the local citizens surrender then pay tribute, loading all available shipping with high value manufactured goods before sending them up into space with sacrificial crews. (Time taken and yield variable, depending upon Diplomacy and Subterfuge rolls, in the range of 5-75 Wealth)

[X] Press The Attack. Send your two cruisers into the teeth of the planetary defences and their handful of likely ill crewed vessels, go for the big prize

All right, persuaded by Forgothrax's arguments.
 
Packrat said:
The Viscountess is known to you, the heiress to the Ducal House Arslan. It is quite likely that she effectively wrote her orders herself and has been drawn like a moth to the flame at the acclaim your recent victories have been winning. She is reportedly quite capable but the sources are all very biased and she is only about twenty five, having been promoted at the regular and rapid intervals one might expect for somebody of her rank. She is definitely angling for an excuse to be promoted to Commodore.
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I find it debatable that Fleetcom wishes for us to escalate the situation considering that this scion seems to be mostly looking for glory and reasons to be promoted.

Imhotep is a planet with a small fraction of the population and importance that Chuang Mu has. There were also four strike cruisers to our single heavy cruiser and somewhat heavily damaged light cruiser. I feel it reasonable to assume its defenses are vastly superior to that, and while their primary purpose is as a tar pit, if i recall correctly the consequences in which Packrat was explaining that was in a hypothetical vacuum with the defenders having only the defenses and no ships to accompany them which is not the case here. Their whole deal was that if they were good they couldn't be detected unless they fired, and while you could do the bait and switch tactics seen in the last update if you had the time to slowly disassemble them it would be a piece of cake, but that won't be possible with the 5 ships over Chuang Mu.

If we hypothetically succeeded in an assault, we would be out of the action for at least a full turn afterwards, and attacks like these tend to cause more of a blood thirsty need for vengeance rather than a desperate plea for your allies to defend you. Chuang Mu has not yet fought us in battle, and as far as they were concerned they were at peace. To them this is a surprise attack, and will be received with the anger and rage that typically accompanies that.
 
Sturmi said:
I find it debatable that Fleetcom wishes for us to escalate the situation considering that this scion seems to be mostly looking for glory and reasons to be promoted.
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Orylnao.

Packrat said:
It puts a sour end to things even as, after you return to orbit, you find yourself in receipt of an official congratulations from Rimward Fleet Command, no real mention made of the collapse of the government on Imhotep, a focus on your annihilation of the core of the NASP sector fleet and capture of most of it. Your decision to raid New Theia is praised and you are instructed to continue to pressure NASP signatory worlds across the border in the hope of showing them the worthlessness of their anarchist alliance.
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You're flat out wrong.

Sturmi said:
Imhotep is a planet with a small fraction of the population and importance that Chuang Mu has. There were also four strike cruisers to our single heavy cruiser and somewhat heavily damaged light cruiser. I feel it reasonable to assume its defenses are vastly superior to that, and while their primary purpose is as a tar pit, if i recall correctly the consequences in which Packrat was explaining that was in a hypothetical vacuum with the defenders having only the defenses and no ships to accompany them which is not the case here. Their whole deal was that if they were good they couldn't be detected unless they fired, and while you could do the bait and switch tactics seen in the last update if you had the time to slowly disassemble them it would be a piece of cake, but that won't be possible with the 5 ships over Chuang Mu.
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If they want to stop us from reducing the defenses, they have to come out and actually make a fight of it. Which is what I want.

Sturmi said:
If we hypothetically succeeded in an assault, we would be out of the action for at least a full turn afterwards, and attacks like these tend to cause more of a blood thirsty need for vengeance rather than a desperate plea for your allies to defend you. Chuang Mu has not yet fought us in battle, and as far as they were concerned they were at peace. To them this is a surprise attack, and will be received with the anger and rage that typically accompanies that.
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Down, yes, out, no. We will have all the resources we need to make emergency repairs and replenishment and we have reinforcements arriving. Moreover, as I previously noted, we're riding the tiger. Getting off just means it mauls us.
 
I think you guys are missing the point. We want the situation to escalate.

As the border conflict intensifies Straus is going to be pushed back into the limelight, undoing the work of the political enemies who arranged his current posting.
 
Forgothrax said:
All this bleating about how now is the time to return home? It's tactically correct, sure, but it is ABSOLUTELY wrong on the strategic level. We've chosen to escalate hard and they are reverse-escalating right back at us with guns we absolutely cannot match with our current fleet. We are riding the tiger. Jumping off just means that the tiger catches and mauls us.
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You make a strong argument. But do we have time to press the attack?

I'm pretty sure Reinhard could take apart the local fleet and the main planetary defences with only the Endeavour at this point, but how long would it take to pick apart the static defences enough to force the local fleet into battle? If I were the local NASP commander who seems... Competent and out of his depth, I would be playing for time until re-enforcements from New Theia arrived.

Further, if we press the attack, can we afford to bring Peregrine? The ship is at 50% readiness right now, so if it fights again it'll be low on hit points and if it did survive a fight, it would likely loose so much readiness that it could not be safely deployed when the NASP reinforcements will mean we will need every cruiser we can get.

Also, while ammo doesn't seem to be tracked in this system, the fluff text of the seige did say that reducing the moon's defences meant the ships were running low on ammunition. It doesn't matter how 'ard Reinhard is, he can't bust up the enemy once he's out of ammo.

I am maybe open to sending Peregrine back while Endeavour presses the attack alone. But how confident are you that we have time?

Azurath said:
I think the problem is the name. "Slave Raid", of which we arent actually enslaving. We would be forcefully relocating the population into debt servitude, of which all them will be provided base income and neccessities of life. Essentially, they become what we once were.
(They would also make a useful deterrent against the reprisal coming.)
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The whole generations deep debt under wage capitalism is rather clearly a form of slavery. Slavery has often arisen out of debt systems that have grown out of control. The empire's system is a futuristic version of a story that has played out many times before in human history.

What do you think happens if the people we kidnap from Chuang Mu if they refuse to work?

fasquardon
 
My main concern is that we have some serious totensieg going on here. We only have one warship that's close to 100% readiness, our only accompanying escort, Peregrine, is at 50% readiness, and the rest of our fleet is in the dock for major repair and refit. Our corvettes are both in need of work, the rest of our cruisers need serious repair. The further we push and the more we gamble, the more likely it is that something might go wrong. We are losing battle readiness here that we need to continue operations and our ships do not do us any good sitting in dock being repaired, even with reinforcements coming next turn. There is a real risk that we only have Endeavour left for operations at this rate if we push on.
 
Continue to pressure is not the same as escalate the situation, Our superiors think we've destroyed all major naval presence in the region and that it'll stay that way for a fair bit. Fleetcom might have an idea of reinforcements arriving, but considering the previous sector flagship was a single battle cruiser, I strongly doubt they expect 3 battleships, along with a dozen or so cruisers to arrive soonish along with our own reinforcements arriving soon. With the state the Imperial household is in, they are in absolutely no state whatsoever to want full scale conflict against the NASP until they've recovered their strength. This is a position of opportunity to hit the NASP while they're down, not to bring about full scale war.

Brawling with the planetary defenses and the 5 ship fleet simultaneously is not something I think even Reinhardt can do without at least heavy damage.

Strauss may want to escalate the situation for his own sake, but in terms of the Empire surviving such a conflict, it is not at all desirable at the moment.
 
[X] Demand Tribute. Demand that the local citizens surrender then pay tribute, loading all available shipping with high value manufactured goods before sending them up into space with sacrificial crews. (Time taken and yield variable, depending upon Diplomacy and Subterfuge rolls, in the range of 5-75 Wealth)
[X] Return Home. You have achieved your goals, return home with your prizes and/or loot.

I don't really mind if they skimp on the tribute so long as we get away before their response comes
 
The more damage we do now the less we have to do later. If we destroy the defenses and steal lots of wealth from this colony then they will be too busy restoring things to how they previously were to expand/improve.
 
fasquardon said:
ou make a strong argument. But do we have time to press the attack?

I'm pretty sure Reinhard could take apart the local fleet and the main planetary defences with only the Endeavour at this point, but how long would it take to pick apart the static defences enough to force the local fleet into battle? If I were the local NASP commander who seems... Competent and out of his depth, I would be playing for time until re-enforcements from New Theia arrived.

Further, if we press the attack, can we afford to bring Peregrine? The ship is at 50% readiness right now, so if it fights again it'll be low on hit points and if it did survive a fight, it would likely loose so much readiness that it could not be safely deployed when the NASP reinforcements will mean we will need every cruiser we can get.

Also, while ammo doesn't seem to be tracked in this system, the fluff text of the seige did say that reducing the moon's defences meant the ships were running low on ammunition. It doesn't matter how 'ard Reinhard is, he can't bust up the enemy once he's out of ammo.

I am maybe open to sending Peregrine back while Endeavour presses the attack alone. But how confident are you that we have time?
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At minimum we have 5 days. That's the time it takes for an attack skiff to reach New Theia and for CLs to return at absolute best. We have no evidence that they've gotten a message off, though, so it may be longer and I suspect we can squeeze another day or two out. Given Strouss's Ridiculous Strategy, I suspect that unless we take an option that takes forever and a day to finish that we have the time we need.

I'd prefer not to bring Peregrine but I suspect we'll have to. Come what may. My hope is that we win the Strat roll and can split the attack skiffs so the multi-attack penalty doesn't last long.

Artificial Girl said:
My main concern is that we have some serious totensieg going on here. We only have one warship that's close to 100% readiness, our only accompanying escort, Peregrine, is at 50% readiness, and the rest of our fleet is in the dock for major repair and refit. Our corvettes are both in need of work, the rest of our cruisers need serious repair. The further we push and the more we gamble, the more likely it is that something might go wrong. We are losing battle readiness here that we need to continue operations and our ships do not do us any good sitting in dock being repaired, even with reinforcements coming next turn. There is a real risk that we only have Endeavour left for operations at this rate if we push on.
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We're spent no matter what we do; everything we have needs dock time except Endeavour. The reason that I am pounding this is not because I think it's ideal; far from it. But ever since we took the BC we have been riding the tiger, and the only way out is through. Piling on as much hurt as possible and trying to tie down the responding squadrons on garrison duty is the only thing I can think of that will prevent the NASP from just going "fuck this noise" and sending most of that fleet at a target where we have no choice but to engage, and that's it for us. Two battleships + 4 HCs sitting in orbit of Imhotep going "come and get us you pansy" while we hemorrhage PC because we don't have anything big enough to fight them is my nightmare here.

Sturmi said:
Continue to pressure is not the same as escalate the situation, Our superiors think we've destroyed all major naval presence in the region and that it'll stay that way for a fair bit. Fleetcom might have an idea of reinforcements arriving, but considering the previous sector flagship was a single battle cruiser, I strongly doubt they expect 3 battleships, along with a dozen or so cruisers to arrive soonish along with our own reinforcements arriving soon. With the state the Imperial household is in, they are in absolutely no state whatsoever to want full scale conflict against the NASP until they've recovered their strength. This is a position of opportunity to hit the NASP while they're down, not to bring about full scale war.
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Again, you're wrong. Look at the option that gives us 30 PC. It's an indiscriminate planetary bombardment, and the presence of it being associated with +PC means that our superiors will look on it at least somewhat favorably. IDK what's going on here, but apparently our leadership is totes down with us getting extremely nasty.
 
._.

I admit total defeat on this particular point and am also now uncomfortable with listening to fleet command now.
 
I suspect the plus PC isn't Fleet Command or the Imperial House liking that course of action, but the average noble thinking "right, jolly good!"

edit: why are they fake british
 
Forgothrax said:
At minimum we have 5 days. That's the time it takes for an attack skiff to reach New Theia and for CLs to return at absolute best. We have no evidence that they've gotten a message off, though, so it may be longer and I suspect we can squeeze another day or two out. Given Strouss's Ridiculous Strategy, I suspect that unless we take an option that takes forever and a day to finish that we have the time we need.

I'd prefer not to bring Peregrine but I suspect we'll have to. Come what may. My hope is that we win the Strat roll and can split the attack skiffs so the multi-attack penalty doesn't last long.
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I bet Endeavour charging the Chuang Mu defences alone would put the fear of Strauss into the NASP reinforcements if we win that engagement too...

I'd really like to get more OOC information from Packrat about how the system works - for example, do the defences get a "multiple attacker" bonus if they're competently laid out?

Also, I really, really don't want to press the attack with Peregrine. But... I suspect this vote will be called before I am able to log in again, and I think your arguments are good enough that it's worth supporting them with a write-in vote.

[X] Demand Tribute. Demand that the local citizens surrender then pay tribute, loading all available shipping with high value manufactured goods before sending them up into space with sacrificial crews. (Time taken and yield variable, depending upon Diplomacy and Subterfuge rolls, in the range of 5-75 Wealth)
[X] Press The Attack. Send your two cruisers into the teeth of the planetary defences and their handful of likely ill crewed vessels, go for the big prize.
-[X] Only with Endeavour. Peregrine is too exhausted to fight further and will thus confine herself to taking on the tribute before returning to the rendezvous point and thence Ilam.

Let's see how the remaining Chuang Mu fleet reacts to a single heavy cruiser charging them.

fasquardon
 
[X] Demand Tribute. Demand that the local citizens surrender then pay tribute, loading all available shipping with high value manufactured goods before sending them up into space with sacrificial crews. (Time taken and yield variable, depending upon Diplomacy and Subterfuge rolls, in the range of 5-75 Wealth)
[X] Return Home. You have achieved your goals, return home with your prizes and/or loot.
 
[X] Demand Tribute. Demand that the local citizens surrender then pay tribute, loading all available shipping with high value manufactured goods before sending them up into space with sacrificial crews. (Time taken and yield variable, depending upon Diplomacy and Subterfuge rolls, in the range of 5-75 Wealth)
[X] Press The Attack. Send your two cruisers into the teeth of the planetary defences and their handful of likely ill crewed vessels, go for the big prize.
-[X] Endeavour leading the charge. Peregrine is too exhausted to face opposition head on, so it would not. Endeavour shall strive to deal with local fleet and Peregrine will lurk in outer reaches of the system to avoid being jumped while listening broadcasts made by flagship for orders to jump in and engage.

(Not entirely reliable method with the lag of dozens of minutes, but we don't have FTL comms...)
 
[X] Slave Raid. Use the threat of your cruiser's guns and your marines to force tens of thousands of people in high value professions to board confiscated civilian vessels then take them back to the empire as serfs, both extremely valuable and hostages to the system's further behaviour. (Time taken variable, will require Diplomacy and Subterfuge rolls, will give 10-40 Political Capital and 10-60 Wealth).
[X] Press The Attack. Send your two cruisers into the teeth of the planetary defences and their handful of likely ill crewed vessels, go for the big prize.
-[X] Endeavour leading the charge. Peregrine is too exhausted to face opposition head on, so it would not. Endeavour shall strive to deal with local fleet and Peregrine will lurk in outer reaches of the system to avoid being jumped while listening broadcasts made by flagship for orders to jump in and engage.

Eh, I imagine we'd react with less instinctive revulsion if the option was redressed as 'Take Hostages'. It's quite different from sending pirates to waste away on Arril mines, after all.
 
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[X] Loot Them. You have almost three battalions of power armoured marines backed by the guns of your cruisers. Storm the starports, seize civilian shipping, load everything of value you can confiscate over the course of a week. (Will take about 7 days, will grant Wealth depending upon Strategy rolls, in the range of 10-50).
[X] Return Home. You have achieved your goals, return home with your prizes and/or loot.
 
[X] Demand Tribute. Demand that the local citizens surrender then pay tribute, loading all available shipping with high value manufactured goods before sending them up into space with sacrificial crews. (Time taken and yield variable, depending upon Diplomacy and Subterfuge rolls, in the range of 5-75 Wealth)
[X] Return Home. You have achieved your goals, return home with your prizes and/or loot.
 
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