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You Are: A sector admiral of a strained imperium.

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Satar said:
not a great diplomat a la Bismark
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We made the best argument we possibly could have, rolled within the top 37.5% of our Diplomacy roll, had a bonus from personally giving our side of the story and still came out with a "very minor failure". The chances of us going on a diplomatic mission and not having to roll diplomacy once is as likely as we are to get proposed by one of the heirs to the throne next turn.
 
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Packrat said:
Being passive right now is simply now an option.
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'not'

The diplomacy is the option you choose to stall for time. It is reasonable, considering that we are horribly underprepared to face an escalation with the fleet we have. If a war starts, we are likely to be the first to take the blow.

It's true that war is about the only thing we are good at, but then again, there is always more we could do to maneuver ourselves in a better position before it hits the fan.

Also, we are required to pick someone with a good Diplomacy and Subterfuge scores. It is possible that when we do roll, we won't have to roll with our character, who plays the role of a glorified escort in this mission. It's not as one-sided as some would like to think.

[x] Raiding. Use your light assets to raid across the border into NASP space, forcing them to escort and garrison. This would limit their ability to attack you back and also help give you solid estimates as to their fleet concentration in minor border worlds.
 
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Gunman said:
Do you really believe we wouldn't have to roll? What do you hope for us to get out of it? Do you expect anything more than "Oops, sorry we were caught raiding your world and creating widespread atrocities."? It isn't just about Imhotep. The entire sector had an attack that was worse than Pearl Harbor. You have to immerse yourself into the game. No retaliation means we get nothing except a budget cut. No political capital, no prize money. Nothing but tears for Reinhard. Nothing but showing the Imperial Navy can do little but act as an impotent defensive force and showing weakness to the Ducal Houses full of ruthless sociopaths. Nothing but rage from nobles that can be very easily directed towards our commoner commodore.
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I believe that someone else will do most of the talking; we are not, as you say, a diplomat. We're being given the option to send someone who is (and a spymaster) on this mission, if we choose to take it.

Further, considering the scope of our Empire and sector, this isn't Pearl Harbor. This is more of a Mukden Incident or a cross-border raid when a village gets burned down. What we're contemplating is definitely more of a Pearl Harbor type attack. Additionally, we have no idea what kind of fleet they have at their disposal. Sure, they could be as undermanned as we are and we just took out four of their shiny raiding cruisers, but if they're actually fearing up for a war, they could have heavier stuff prepping for an expedition and our fleet could be heading straight into a fight we can't win or possibly even only eke put a pyrrihic victory.

It's better to stall to get the ships we have under repair back up to speed and to try and put out some of the other fires we're dealing with before potentially escalating this into a full scale sector war that we might not be ready for. We're already stretched trying to deal with existing levels of piracy and smuggling. What happens when we need to concentrate the whole fleet for months or even years to chase NASP task forces all over the place? And what happens s if we can't persuade command to give us more ships? We already have a hard time with that as is.
 
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[X] Ruin A World. Launch a full scale attack on an insignificant NASP border world, destroy their orbital industry, savage their infrastructure, execute their government and loot everything before withdrawing. An even retaliation
 
Chronologist said:
Further, considering the scope of our Empire and sector, this isn't Pearl Harbor. This is more of a Mukden Incident or a cross-border raid when a village gets burned down. What we're contemplating is definitely more of a Pearl Harbor type attack. Additionally, we have no idea what kind of fleet they have at their disposal. Sure, they could be as undermanned as we are and we just took out four of their shiny raiding cruisers, but if they're actually fearing up for a war, they could have heavier stuff prepping for an expedition and our fleet could be heading straight into a fight we can't win or possibly even only eke put a pyrrihic victory.
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while I MUST agree what happened to us was not pearl harbor and what we are planning is more like that.... I have to disagree on the scale you described... what happened to us was more like a sack of rome than a muckden incedent. remember a LOT of civilian deaths happened, a VERY high percentage of nobles died and all around this was not a military target but rather a civilian one.... which makes it worse in my eyes.
 
I'll just present a hypothetical. It's not like this is how the events are going to play out, and the dice will obviously have a say in it, but consider the following.
Packrat said:
This forced the Imperial House to throw it's own much vaunted navy into the fight, expecting overwhelming victory and two ducal houses reduced to puppets. Instead the Imperial Fleet lost over a hundred battleships and a million men in the first engagements. Fighting ground on for nearly a year before a desultory peace treaty was signed with over half of the Imperial Navy destroyed and the Imperial House itself perhaps fatally weakened.

Three years later, the border regions are slipping into chaos whilst the NASP signatories are recovering, rebuilding and unifying into a true interstellar power. Meanwhile the ducal houses circle the Imperial throne like vultures.
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The Empire does not really want another war with NASP; it doesn't have the resourses for it. That's why there's a treaty. And that's why there are provocations - the NASP wouldn't risk it if they considered us strong enough to go all the way. But they are pretty low-key, since even a disease-ridden and aged lion still has a nasty bite.

So if we blatantly attack one of their planets, and probably succeed in dealing some real damage - because we totally can... the smarter move on their part would be not to respond in kind, but send their diplomat to the Empire and enquire about the treaty breach. This, of course, could go entirely over our head. Should it be pointed out to them that they started it, it would be easy for them to feign ignorance and blame in on the initiative of the fleet commander. It doesn't have to be true - it's just maneuvering so that both sides could save face because no one wants an open conflict, so the inconvenient truth can always be sidestepped. So if they demand that all parties responsible for breaching the treaty - and that goes both ways - be punished, in the interests of achieving a fair resolution... how would the Empire respond, considering the alternative?

It costs them nothing, since everyone involved on their side is either dead or captured anyway, but to us, it costs everything. Is there a single person in the Empire who would stick their neck out for us, and risk going to war over a commander who 'overstepped his boundaries'?

Just one of the numerous possibilities... and a warning to not underestimate diplomacy in times of great uncertainty.
 
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Chronologist said:
I believe that someone else will do most of the talking; we are not, as you say, a diplomat. We're being given the option to send someone who is (and a spymaster) on this mission, if we choose to take it.
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You're still under the impression Packrat isn't going to have us roll diplomacy when he has made us pay for us having an atrocious Diplomacy rating at every chance he had. Do you think he is going to write an update that says "You spend days sitting in your ship doing nothing. A week later NASP apologizes profusely for attacking you and you return home"? Do you think we're going to get anything good out of that?

Chronologist said:
Further, considering the scope of our Empire and sector, this isn't Pearl Harbor.
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I'm not talking about the entire Imperium.

Chronologist said:
Further, considering the scope of our Empire and sector, this isn't Pearl Harbor. This is more of a Mukden Incident or a cross-border raid when a village gets burned down. What we're contemplating is definitely more of a Pearl Harbor type attack.
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In what world do you live in where impaling children and numerous other atrocities Packrat can't describe without risking an infraction for being too graphic is less provocative than attacking a naval base? If this planet was the equivalent of a "village" the Governor wouldn't be bitching and moaning about the money it'd cost to rebuild Imhotep. Even if we went by your logic that massacring civilians is less provocative than attacking a military base, guess what Imhotep had? Orbital defenses and an Imperial Army garrison. What makes you think the repressive Imperium who is so eager to propagandize how good the lowly commoners have it in the Imperium and how evil NASP is would not exploit this? On the nil chance no one with influence or no significant numbers care about this, the Imperium will make them care..

Chronologist said:
Additionally, we have no idea what kind of fleet they have at their disposal.
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We"ll find out.

Chronologist said:
Sure, they could be as undermanned as we are and we just took out four of their shiny raiding cruisers, but if they're actually fearing up for a war, they could have heavier stuff prepping for an expedition and our fleet could be heading straight into a fight we can't win or possibly even only eke put a pyrrihic victory.
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You still don't get it. We paid the price of having no wealth, no political capital, no Diplomacy and everyone with power wanting to see us die so we could be the best military genius in the Imperium.

The current choice of maxed out military skill is quite possibly hard mode but you are also ridiculous. The dice system is 3d6+Skill so with a Strategy of 22? You basically always win an even roll against even extremely capable elite opponents.
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Regarding that kind of thing, as the person writing the quest I know that I am not a strategic genius! I was a junior infantry officer, fifteen years ago.

But your character on a 1/256 worst possible roll for Strategy gets a result of 25, which would be a top 9% possibility roll for an averagely experienced and capable professional naval captain. Basically unless you really fuck up and a competent enemy rolls well you are going to have your ships in the best possible place, fully supplied and ready for action, quite possibly launching some kind of ultimately cunning ambush.
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What part of this do you not get?
 
Nevill said:
I'll just present a hypothetical. It's not like this is how the events are going to play out, and the dice will obviously have a say in it, but consider the following.

The Empire does not really want another war with NASP; it doesn't have the resourses for it. That's why there's a treaty. And that's why there are provocations - the NASP wouldn't risk it if they considered us strong enough to go all the way. But they are pretty low-key, since even a disease-ridden and aged lion still has a nasty bite.

So if we blatantly attack one of their planets, and probably succeed in dealing some real damage - because we totally can... the smarter move on their part would be not to respond in kind, but send their diplomat to the Empire and enquire about the treaty breach. This, of course, could go entirely over our head. Should it be pointed out to them that they started it, it would be easy for them to feign ignorance and blame in on the initiative of the fleet commander. It doesn't have to be true - it's just maneuvering so that both sides could save face because no one wants an open conflict, so the inconvenient truth can always be sidestepped. So if they demand that all parties responsible for breaching the treaty - and that goes both ways - be punished, in the interests of achieving a fair resolution... how would the Empire respond, considering the alternative?

It costs them nothing, since everyone involved on their side is either dead or captured anyway, but to us, it costs everything. Is there a single person in the Empire who would stick their neck out for us, and risk going to war over a commander who 'overstepped his boundaries'?

Just one of the numerous possibilities... and a warning to not underestimate diplomacy in times of great uncertainty.
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Excellent points all around. I know it's easy to say "let's go get them" but we don't just have our local politics to balance, there's a much larger situation that we need to be concerned about here. Making the wrong move could end our careers, especially since there are plenty of people who would be happy to see our commoner ass thrown under the bus for causing an incident.
 
Artificial Girl said:
Excellent points all around. I know it's easy to say "let's go get them" but we don't just have our local politics to balance, there's a much larger situation that we need to be concerned about here. Making the wrong move could end our careers, especially since there are plenty of people who would be happy to see our commoner ass thrown under the bus for causing an incident.
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very true but the same could be said if we try diplomacy or do nothing.... The local representative of the nobles WANTS us to do something.... Not doing it or trying diplomacy could hurt us more than doing something in the end.

WE are in a bit of a catch 22 situation.... our best chance going forward is to attack, but not commit to an even retaliation and gain enough spoils and deal enough damage that we can use our political gains from the attack to protect ourselves.
 
To clarify on the nature of the raid on Imhotep, the NASP marines themselves did not really take part in atrocities, at least outside of attacking a planet during what is technically peace. They fought military units or destroyed strategic and government infrastructure.

What they did do was enable and arm a massive rebellion and support attacks by units of Imhotep's old planetary defense force that had been hiding in bunkers and playing guerilla for the last few years. It was those people who were being beaten into being serfs and when given the opportunity, cut loose with atrocities. The marines also tended to hand over most of the prisoners they took to the locals with predictable results, they were acting as fast response and assault troops, raiders, etc, not taking and holding ground themselves, there were only about a thousand of them.

Also very much not 'Sack of Rome', Imhotep was a world with massive problems ever since it was conquered and controlled mostly by various relatively minor noble houses, the Empire contains several hundred planets and it was very far down the list of important or desirable locations.

Also the level of force present at the Theia Fleet base depends on current NASP strategic doctrine. Pre war Imperial doctrine had a border sector garrison include six battleships but (as well as the Imperial House being paranoid about an alliance of dukes striking at the throne world) it was later reasoned that this was pointless - putting capital ships right on the border did not help with patrolling and just meant you would lose a battleship squadron in event of a full scale war, better to keep them in nodal fleet reserve behind the lines.

Regular NASP battleships are no faster than Imperial ones and their fleet base is quite literally right on the border making this even more of an issue, what you expect is that New Theia has enormous fixed defenses that could hold off a full battle fleet for weeks along with a lot of lighter vessels. A raid would not be looking to destroy the fleet base but rather to catch an element of their fleet patrolling or working up after refit, or hit supply convoys coming into the system and force them to send out their ready reserves.

They might well have battlecruisers though, which would be very dangerous, though you are fairly confident of handling most battlecruisers with the Endeavour and stealing or destroying one would be a huge coup.

Also you definitely do not need to go on any diplomatic mission yourself. You could send the Hawk for example, with her Diplomacy 13 captain and Diplomacy 12, Subterfuge 15 XO.

Edit: Of course if you jump into New Theia, probe the defenses, then forty battleships come out to play? Then you run and know that yes, yes they are planning to invade in full force.
 
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[X] Strike New Theia. You are technically not at war with the NASP treaty worlds but they have just blatantly assaulted an Imperial planet. Take as many cruisers as you can then hit the periphery of the New Theia system, the home of their border fleet base. This would let you know if they are massing capital ships and also give the opportunity to engage any light defensive patrols they might have, ideally forcing action with another cruiser squadron and annihilating it. Higher risk.
 
[X] Strike New Theia. You are technically not at war with the NASP treaty worlds but they have just blatantly assaulted an Imperial planet. Take as many cruisers as you can then hit the periphery of the New Theia system, the home of their border fleet base. This would let you know if they are massing capital ships and also give the opportunity to engage any light defensive patrols they might have, ideally forcing action with another cruiser squadron and annihilating it. Higher risk.
 
[X] Strike New Theia. You are technically not at war with the NASP treaty worlds but they have just blatantly assaulted an Imperial planet. Take as many cruisers as you can then hit the periphery of the New Theia system, the home of their border fleet base. This would let you know if they are massing capital ships and also give the opportunity to engage any light defensive patrols they might have, ideally forcing action with another cruiser squadron and annihilating it. Higher risk.
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[X] Strike New Theia. You are technically not at war with the NASP treaty worlds but they have just blatantly assaulted an Imperial planet. Take as many cruisers as you can then hit the periphery of the New Theia system, the home of their border fleet base. This would let you know if they are massing capital ships and also give the opportunity to engage any light defensive patrols they might have, ideally forcing action with another cruiser squadron and annihilating it. Higher risk.
 
Is it possible to camouflage our ship as pirate ship if we do strike New Theia?
If we attack and win and NSAP demand something, just say they are a pirate fleet that have been running free amidst the chaos.
But if we enter and see them preparing for invasion or the defence is too hard to breach, just turn tail and raid some other world
 
[X] Strike New Theia. You are technically not at war with the NASP treaty worlds but they have just blatantly assaulted an Imperial planet. Take as many cruisers as you can then hit the periphery of the New Theia system, the home of their border fleet base. This would let you know if they are massing capital ships and also give the opportunity to engage any light defensive patrols they might have, ideally forcing action with another cruiser squadron and annihilating it. Higher risk.
 
[X] Ruin A World. Launch a full scale attack on an insignificant NASP border world, destroy their orbital industry, savage their infrastructure, execute their government and loot everything before withdrawing. An even retaliation.
 
[X] Strike New Theia. You are technically not at war with the NASP treaty worlds but they have just blatantly assaulted an Imperial planet. Take as many cruisers as you can then hit the periphery of the New Theia system, the home of their border fleet base. This would let you know if they are massing capital ships and also give the opportunity to engage any light defensive patrols they might have, ideally forcing action with another cruiser squadron and annihilating it. Higher risk.
 
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Update 14 - The Sword of Democracy
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    • [X] Strike New Theia. You are technically not at war with the NASP treaty worlds but they have just blatantly assaulted an Imperial planet. Take as many cruisers as you can then hit the periphery of the New Theia system, the home of their border fleet base. This would let you know if they are massing capital ships and also give the opportunity to engage any light defensive patrols they might have, ideally forcing action with another cruiser squadron and annihilating it. Higher risk.

    You have little doubt in your mind regarding what you need to do next, you need to retaliate, if you let the NASP simply raid across the border unanswered then it will show them, your superiors and various powerful nobles that the Navy in this sector is unable to do its job.

    And two a few weeks later you find yourself in interstellar space over the NASP border, the Endeavour flanked by the Hawk and the Harpy, the Cirrus having taken over guard duty over Imhotep whilst the Greyhound and your cutters struggle with maintaining order across the sector. Right now you are waiting with the cruiser squadron widely dispersed a light week out from the New Theia system, all passive sensors tuned, Commander Sones processing the information received and trying to put together a plot of the system and it's defences.

    Commodore Reinhard Strauss Strategy:
    1 + 1 + 3 +22 Strategy = 27

    Commander Sones Long Range Recon Analysis
    6 + 5 + 3 +15 Subterfuge = 29

    Vice Admiral Natalya Alegre
    4 + 5 + 5 + 15 Strategy = 29

    The information is obviously out of date and you only have three sub capital ships, limiting the efficiency of this work, but Commander Sones is excellent at this and a few well timed jumps back and forth allow you to put together several mages to track ship movements within the system.

    It is immediately obvious that New Theia itself is unassailable, you already knew that, the garden world was assaulted in the closing stages of the war and the Imperial Navy lost a trio of battleships before being forced to withdraw. Concentric layers of orbital defences, mine fields and observation posts ensure that much like Illam the Imperial sector capital, New Theia requires a methodical siege from a full sized fleet to reduce or to reach it's orbiting shipyards.

    The outer system shows signs of more diffuse satellites and it is obvious they will see your squadron's jumps when light reaches them in a few days time. The outer system is also busy with domed colonies and asteroid mines along with heavy commercial traffic. Drive signatures do indicate light military patrols, equivalent to a pair of cutters, around the largest industrial and mining center in the outer system.

    Drives spool then you feel the horrifying lurch of a precision jump, reality warping then resuming as your squadon conducts a pinpoint arrival 'below' the plane of the system and within weapons range of the huge asteroid station, an orbital city with a population of tens of millions surrounded by a now panicked swarm of civilian traffic. As you and the crew recover, automatic systems spit out torpedoes toward the two near stationary patrol craft.

    I am not even going to roll for that. You are due 4 Political Capital from destroying two NASP patrol cutters though.

    They never stood a chance against a trio of cruisers and you blow them both apart rather than risking them jumping in system to warn the fleet base of your arrival, it will take hours for light speed transmissions to make their way and you have several dozen merchant vessels or freighters under your guns as you broadcast demands for their immediate surrender and preparation for boarding.

    Marines are ready and move to their assault shuttles along with midshippeople and junior lieutenants, making ready to form prize crews. Then the plan starts to go quite wrong.

    Through your implanted link to the Endeavour's sensors you feel a tear in reality, the flare on all electromagnetic spectrum, that is then the Battlecruiser 'Sword of Democracy' exits hyperspace within weapons range accompanied by the Strike Cruiser 'Negal'. They open fire.

    Battlecruiser Sword of Democracy: Speed 8, Firepower 10, Durability 7, Marines 10. CAPITAL SHIP. (Vice Admiral Natalya Alegre. Strategy 14, Tactics 14, Prowess 6)
    Strike Cruiser Nergal: Speed 10, Firepower 3, Durability 2, Marines 4 (Captain Strategy 12, Tactics 10, Prowess 7).

    Heavy Cruiser Endeavour: Speed 5, Firepower 5, Durability 5, Marines 5. (You, Strategy 22, Tactics 19, Prowess 10). +1 Crew
    Light Cruiser Hawk: Speed 7, Firepower 3, Durability 2, Marines 3 (Captain Dame Stephua Rosson Maner. (Diplomacy 13, Strategy 8, Tactics 11, Prowess 9, Subterfuge 8) Loyalty: 9. -1 Crew. Durability 16/20
    Light Cruiser Harpy: Speed 7, Firepower 3, Durability 2, Marines 2 (Commander Dame Jule Sice Wison (Diplomacy: 9, Strategy 8, Tactics 14, Prowess 13, Subterfuge 9) Loyalty 11. +1 Crew. Durability 16/20

    Sword of Democracy: Firepower 10, Tactics 14: 37, Targetting Endeavour
    Nergal: Firepower 3, Tactics 10: 22, Targetting Hawk


    Endeavour: Firepower 5, Tactics 19: 38, Targetting Sword of Democracy
    Hawk: Firepower 3, Tactics 11: 23, Targetting Nergal
    Harpy: Firepower 3, Tactics 14, +4 Multi Attack: 32, Targetting Nergal.

    Nergal takes 11 damage, Durability 9/20
    Sword of Democracy takes 1 damage, Durability 69/70

    Alarm klaxons sound scream across the bridge until you silence them, your XO is being about as useless as might be expected and shouting 'We are under attack!'. But you were already at combat stations and snap out orders, swinging the Endeavour around to face the battlecruiser head on and minimise target area. Nuclear fire fills the void between your cruiser and the far larger vessel, point defence guns vomiting forth a profusion of shells, railguns hammering the hull as you burn the ventral thrusters.

    You feel impacts against the deflector shields, you see shots going home, but nothing significant enough to breach armour and, in stark contrast to six months ago, your crew react with practiced efficiency, apparently trusting to survive. The Sword of Democracy is caught by a single torpedo, a single torpedo that detonates inside the zone of her deflector fields and does virtually nothing to the hundred thousand ton warship.

    Your two light cruisers move with practised efficiency though as they flank the Nergal to each side, overwhelming her point defences and melting swathes of armour from her flanks as her own fire is swatted away.

    But you are still facing a battlecruiser and not one incompetently handled.


    [] Run. Try to break contact and withdraw, you might be able to win this but you also might get your squadron annihilated.
    [] Press The Attack. Keep pushing, destroy the Nergal with missile fire then swarm the Sword of Democracy.
    [] Board. Try to board, immediately, before any ships get blown apart. The Sword of Democracy might have an awful lot of marines but you know NASP officers lack the equipment and enhancement advantages of Imperial officers.

    Well you did it, you rolled a 5 on a Strategy roll! Which allowed a very competent admiral to get a very slight edge on you.
     
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    • [X] Run. Try to break contact and withdraw, you might be able to win this but you also might get your squadron annihilated.

    Discretion is, as they say, the better part of valor.
     
    [X] Run. Try to break contact and withdraw, you might be able to win this but you also might get your squadron annihilated.

    Wow who could've predicted this. :V
     
    Competently handled or no, we have the numbers edge and should be able to reduce the Nergal quite efficiently in the next action phase, at which point it's a battlecruiser vs two lights and a heavy. That isn't a fight that the battlecruiser wins. Let's make this count.

    [X] Press The Attack. Keep pushing, destroy the Nergal with missile fire then swarm the Sword of Liberation.

    I'd love to board, but risking that is just asking for trouble. If we can incap instead of kill, great. If not, well, such is war.

    Nice quest, @Packrat! Been lurking for a while.
     
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