An ASB decides to combine the two most chaotic years in recent history. On June 1, 2020, the US...
WI: 2020 Pacific US + British Columbia ISOTed to 1968
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AYC
Make blunts not bombs
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- California
An ASB decides to combine the two most chaotic years in recent history. On June 1, 2020, the US states of Washington, Oregon, California and the Canadian province of British Columbia are ISOTed to June 1, 1968. As in A Golden Island To The West, the ISOT goes up to 1000ft underground.
What sort of craziness are we in for?
What sort of craziness are we in for?
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Cloak&Dagger
Definitely Insane
What happens to the Army and Navy?
AYC
Make blunts not bombs
- Location
- California
Troops/bases on land and ships in port are along for the ride.
Cloak&Dagger
Definitely Insane
Well regardless of the specific disposition of the Navy, California should still have plenty of firepower to tell the downtime US to fuck off. British Columbia might rejoin Canada though, and Eastern Oregon might decide the 60's USA is exactly what it wants to be a part of.
The Pacific States of America will easily remain independent though, especially with plenty of nukes and the USSR around to undoubtedly give it support.
Internationally it's hard to know what the PSA will do. They don't actually have to push anything so it all comes down to politics. They won't support the communists in the Cold War, but they certainly aren't going to be invading Vietnam.
The rump USA actually has a major problem now in the Pacific, since it just has Alaska and Hawaii to support their whole fleet. Certainly the Panama Canal will never be given up to secure access to the Pacific.
The Pacific States of America will easily remain independent though, especially with plenty of nukes and the USSR around to undoubtedly give it support.
Internationally it's hard to know what the PSA will do. They don't actually have to push anything so it all comes down to politics. They won't support the communists in the Cold War, but they certainly aren't going to be invading Vietnam.
The rump USA actually has a major problem now in the Pacific, since it just has Alaska and Hawaii to support their whole fleet. Certainly the Panama Canal will never be given up to secure access to the Pacific.
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- Location
- Washington, D.C.
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- She/Her
I'm not sure that the US states would leave the downtime US. This is 1968, after slavery and Jim Crow. This is a recognizably modern-ish America. They would have a fair amount of influence in it too. Not just electorally but economic.
AYC
Make blunts not bombs
- Location
- California
Yup. My mom would be here and also an 8 year old girl in Illinois.
So if the these modern states seceded from downtime US (while from the future they are still technically part of the US) would we see a 2nd American Civil War happening, between the PSA and USA.
AYC
Make blunts not bombs
- Location
- California
I don't think so. Both sides would be fully aware of just how powerful nuclear weapons are, and 1968 America knows they are at a significant disadvantage. Once people realize what has happened, there will probably be lots of negotiations. Downtime and Uptime US have a lot to offer each other but they're both going to have demands.
And of course, a big question is how suddenly being sent back in time affects the social unrest currently plaguing both countries.
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Cloak&Dagger
Definitely Insane
I don't believe in the radical centrist California portrayed in A Golden Island to the West. We're not about to start lynching gays and dumping defoliants on civilians to placate the downtime USA, nor give those people a say in our politics. Certainly very few blacks, hispanics, or asians in the Pacific States will believe they'll be treated properly by the 1968 USA, and that's certainly the correct position to hold.
There's no reason to give the downtime US an inch. If anything the Pacific States should wage an aggressive campaign to Donbass as much land as they can from it. The Black Panthers with MANPADS and ATGMs would be something to see.
Downtime USA can try, and lose horribly.
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- Location
- Washington, D.C.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
No one is going to make the pacific states have to start attacking minorities. If anything it would be possible to get concessions of autonomy for access to west coast tech and keep them happy. Certainly most people in those states will still feel a fair attachment to the United States even if it isn't precisely their's and breaking off from it is not something they will take lightly. Certainly I doubt they would ever actually invade if they did try to leave. More likely is the pacific states are given some type of autonomy and the rest of the country can be happy with pushing the people they don't like to go there.
Cloak&Dagger
Definitely Insane
Or we can tell them to go fuck themselves and give them nothing until they've 'proven' via statistics that they are no longer a horribly racist shithole.
Like, say, once minorities have within 1% GDP per capita and education and such of whites in the downtime USA, and everyone has enforced full rights, including LGBT, and professions are equalized in racial hiring.
AYC
Make blunts not bombs
- Location
- California
This assumes that the uptime US has absolute leverage over downtime America. I don't think that's the case. It's going to be very difficult to rebuild the west coast's economy without some sort of trade agreement with downtime America, given how interconnected the American economy is in 2020.
Cloak&Dagger
Definitely Insane
It's going to be very easy to rebuild the West Coast's economy, because now we're a bigger superpower than the downtime US at the height of the Cold War. This isn't 1868 America, this is 1968, the entire world will send us resources in exchange for our goods. We'll be like modern Germany and China on crack with massive production for the whole world.
Downtime USA is the one that needs to come crawling on their knees, especially since all their pacific holdings are fucked without the West Coast.
- Location
- Washington, D.C.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
This is just after the end of the civil rights movement, racial relations are pretty close to becoming essentially modern. The wealth gap today is roughly the same as it was in 1968. You are asking the downtime america to comply with something modern american (pacific states included) does not do. Median income of blacks as a percentage of whites' is a few percent lower in 2016 than 1968, though it has fluctuated over the years. Racial issues aren't going to be much of an issue between downtime and uptime areas, even women's rights wouldn't be much of one. LGBT rights might be a hang up but I don't see why the rest of the country wouldn't be willing to let the west coast do its own thing on that.
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Cloak&Dagger
Definitely Insane
White as fuck Pacific States Politician: "This is just after the end of the civil rights movement, racial relations are pretty close to becoming essentially modern. So we will be rejoining the downtime USA."
Literally every minority: "Get the fuck out of office."
Hilarious. I can see that happening a few times though.
That's the point, yes. There is no downside.
- Location
- Washington, D.C.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm sorry, I just cannot see most west coasters taking much of an issue with staying with an America which is not that different to the modern one. Especially for something they also fail just as much at. 1968 is not that long ago, a lot of people remember back then. But we might just have to agree to disagree.
- Location
- US
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The resulting chaos is likely to lead to Covid-19 flares in the uptime areas, which means eventual spread to downtimers. 1968 is still a global economy, but with much less advanced medical technology. Heck, just having two separate flu reservoirs would likely have made it a bad year, epidemiologically speaking.
Cloak&Dagger
Definitely Insane
Uptime Minorities: "Gosh, the 60's were so long ago. I wonder if we'd be worse off joining the downtime USA? Let's ask the grandparents what the 60's were like."
Grandparents: *Tells them*
Uptime Minorities: "Oh!" *Prepares to skin any politician who wants to rejoin downtime USA alive.*
That would be an interesting way to slow things down and give up and downtime USA a lot of (metaphorical) breathing room. Hard to launch invasions when everything is on lockdown.
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AYC
Make blunts not bombs
- Location
- California
What about the interconnected state line communities whose economies depend on one another? Does West Coast USA erect a hard border to keep the racists out?
- Location
- Washington, D.C.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Not all minorities are going to be like that. Especially non-black americans, which are the vast majority of minorities on the west coast. Regardless, we'll just have to agree to disagree because this is going to go nowhere.
Cloak&Dagger
Definitely Insane
Not unless relations with downtime USA are really bad. They'd be under whatever trade agreement rules are made between the PSA and USA.
The present day protests are being much more successful than historical ones exactly because whites are turning out in larger numbers than previously. I'd certainly support the anti-1968 USA faction, and I'm white.
Like, I get that you imagine that nobody cares much and nothing was different for minorities in 1968, that's a standard radical centrist position, but not everyone shares those beliefs, and minorities aren't suicidal lemmings willing to die or be enslaved for your beliefs.
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the atom
Anarcho-Kemalist Thought Leader
- Location
- Comfortably numb
I don't think people feel the visceral hatred for the U.S. of the 60s that you claim they do, and unless the western states actually roll back protections for women and minorities I doubt they'd feel strongly enough about those things to actually separate. You have to remember that LBJ was the guy who signed the VRA into effect, and he's absolutely going to see the west coast as the ultimate counterweight to the South on basically everything.
EDIT: Actually speaking of politics what are the implications here? Unlike in AGITTW the Democrats probably won't hesitate to give the uptime states their 2020 EC/House representation (or even more) and LBJ definitely wouldn't shy away from a low blow like that. This means the Democrats comfortably win the election, but the primary season has now been thrown into total chaos. Kennedy's California victory is completely meaningless now and there will be huge disputes over whether to run another primary in California. I'm not certain the Democrats could afford it at this point even with the uptime party contributing funds.
I think the Cold War is still the biggest concern in this scenario. I could easily see either the Soviets panicking in the immediate aftermath before the dust settles, or the U.S. trying something stupid a few years down the line because they've convinced themselves they have the technology to win a military confrontation quickly and easily.
Pierre Trudeau likewise is going to take a much harder line on it than his son has.
There were a lot of ugly beliefs in this era but the total and complete detachment from reality we've experienced over the last 30 years hasn't happened yet.
EDIT: Actually speaking of politics what are the implications here? Unlike in AGITTW the Democrats probably won't hesitate to give the uptime states their 2020 EC/House representation (or even more) and LBJ definitely wouldn't shy away from a low blow like that. This means the Democrats comfortably win the election, but the primary season has now been thrown into total chaos. Kennedy's California victory is completely meaningless now and there will be huge disputes over whether to run another primary in California. I'm not certain the Democrats could afford it at this point even with the uptime party contributing funds.
I think the Cold War is still the biggest concern in this scenario. I could easily see either the Soviets panicking in the immediate aftermath before the dust settles, or the U.S. trying something stupid a few years down the line because they've convinced themselves they have the technology to win a military confrontation quickly and easily.
The flipside is that LBJ is probably going to take it A LOT more seriously than the Trump administration has and will no doubt pull out all the stops to hold it off before it gets out of hand.
Pierre Trudeau likewise is going to take a much harder line on it than his son has.
There were a lot of ugly beliefs in this era but the total and complete detachment from reality we've experienced over the last 30 years hasn't happened yet.
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jenalysis
Midnight Weather Witch
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- She/Her
I don't see the pacific states seceding, they'll push for faster reform, and implement it in their own states. They'll also have the foresight to know what the Republicans become, and can probably prevent such a thing, and Reagan is butterflied away.
The USA will be fine with the uptimer stuff as long as it remains state law. The 26th amendment passes, so the Constitution is the same, and things like Citizens United aren't case law yet, so California can try to get things like UHC and campaign finance reform passed in the 70s.
Is Nixon gone in this scenario?
The USA will be fine with the uptimer stuff as long as it remains state law. The 26th amendment passes, so the Constitution is the same, and things like Citizens United aren't case law yet, so California can try to get things like UHC and campaign finance reform passed in the 70s.
Is Nixon gone in this scenario?