Whispers from the Deep - Biplanes & Bisexuality

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Character Sheets
  • Informational


    • Character Sheet
    Isabelle Morgenthau
    A Fisher

    Isa (right) and her boyfriend Arren (left)

    Hard Keen Calm Daring Wild
    +4 -2 +4 +1 -1
    Moves
    Creepy: When a comrade sees you perform a ritual, overhears your prayers, or sees signs of your alienness, they lose Trust in you. Once they learn one of your Moves, they are no longer affected, but they gain Creepy as well.
    Deep Ones: You can call on your patrons to Help you on a roll. On a 1, you Break after this mission.
    Blessing: When you dab fresh blood on a piece of working equipment, roll +Calm. On a 16+, take both. On an 11-15, choose 1.
    • Take +1 Ongoing with this item this Routine. (+1 Handling for a plane)
    • The item cannot break or be lost this Routine. (+1 Armour on 1 Section of the Plane.)
    On a miss, you need a bigger sacrifice. Don't disappoint.
    Ideomotor Response: Your plane effectively has a programmable autopilot. It does not have to be switched on and off; it "knows" when you are behind the controls.
    Soul-Bound: When you paint a rune in blood on an aircraft, you are linked. While in flight, you can take incoming Structure damage as Stress, 1-1. You can take a hit that would strike a Component as Injury, or give incoming Injury to your Engine.
    Bond: (Witch move learned from Wulf) When you hold an object of significance and make an emotional connection to it, take 1 Stress. The object becomes a magical Focus, and you learn it's Nature (Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Iron, or Blood).
    Contemplation: When you draw a ritual circle and stay within it, roll +Calm. On a 16+, you come out of it about an hour later refreshed; strike 3 Stress or 2 Injury. On an 11-15, it takes the whole night, and you're unreachable in that time.

    Mastery
    The Bushwack
    Ambush Predator: When you strike an enemy who is unaware of your presence, roll with Advantage.
    Forced Evade: When you fire to scare an opponent off, spend 1 ammo and roll +Hard. On a hit, instead of dealing damage, choose one: Target dives 1, target climbs 1, target loses speed in a forced turn. On a 16+, roll attack dice on them anyway.
    Momentum: When you dive onto a target, add +1 AP.
    Scissors Snip: When you disengage, give an ally +3 towards dealing with your target.

    Familiar Vices
    - Drinking
    - Prayer
    - Dancing

    Vice Progress
    - Breaking Stuff: ☑☐☐
    - Cannabis: ☑☐☐

    Intimacy Move
    When you are intimate with another, choose one of you to get a hold. They can spend that hold to give the other a command: if followed, then forward to their next +Stat move, they will always score at least a partial hit, regardless of what the dice say.

    If you use this move in the air, there are two holds, and they can be distributed however you agree.

    The Company
    People
    • Isabelle (Fisher): The PC. She's out to find her way in the world. 1 thaler per Routine.
    • Arren (NPC- Confidant/Observer): Your cute fish boyfriend. Artist and recently trained observer. 1 thaler per Routine.
    • Wulf (Witch): Former bandit leader. Actually half wolf. Hot as hell. Ex-Goth. 1 thaler per Routine.
      • Hard +3, Keen +3, Calm -2, Daring +0, Wild +3 (Avenger)
    • Minna Hammerl (Soldier): Inexperienced but highly trained soldier and passionate duelist. Speaks all formal-like. The most beautiful woman in the world. 1 thaler per Routine.
      • Hard +4, Keen +1, Calm +2, Daring -2 (Professional)
    • Heinrich Engel (Student): Political science student working on his thesis-slash-manifesto.
    • Anny Meldgaard (NPC - Mechanic): A young half-Fischer, half-Himmilvolk woman from Piav, trained by the mechanics there. Looking for adventure and her origins. Blushes red?
    Aircraft
    • Isa & Arren's Plane: A Teicher Möwen seaplane. Steel frame, liquid-cooled engine. Deeply possessed. 1 thaler per Routine.
    • Fang Howl: Wulf's helicopter. An experimental pre-war model. Liquid-cooled radial. Three wolf moon. 1 thaler per Routine.
    • Pup: Wulf's Kreuzer Skorpion prototype retrieved from a sealed hanger. Gets a lot out of an underpowered engine.
    • Minna's Kobra: An inline-engine powered, wood framed fighter. All around an excellent machine. 1 thaler per Routine.
    • Heinrich's Reconstruction: A canard plane with a 30mm cannon in the nose. Awkward and unstable but hits like a train. 1 thaller per Routine.
    ​
    Stress XP
    3 7
    ​
    Cash Expenses
    41 10.5
     
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  • Informational
    • Cool. I was worried he was being transphobic. I mean, he was still pretty callous and rude. But, at least he's not actively misgendering Wulf.

    EDIT:
    [X] Plan: Yes, Another Stray
     
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    That was a lot of fun. I almost want to be annoyed that you always seem to write stuff that really deserves a funny rating and follow it up with stuff far to heavy for that to feel appropriate, but the results are always so excellent that I just can't. A good read all around.
     
    As I do in real life, I have a tendency to use humour to try and diffuse tension. It can sometimes create tonal whiplash, which is something I'm working really hard on. I haven't always gotten it right.
     
    [X] Plan: Yes, Another Stray

    They're ridiculous, Heinrich is an asshole I will love Wulf til my dying day.
     
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    Ok that was about the coolest version of that scene I could have hoped for. The byplay between those two is great, and I really like the idea of Wulf having someone with some context around queer stuff to talk to.

    Also, I wish I could be as cool as Wulf.

    [X] Plan: Yes, Another Stray
     
    As if Heinrich would ever be a cop either.

    I'm picturing the two of them as bank robbers on the run fro both Officer Hammerl and the mob, stumbling onto a fishing boat run by a husband and wife of upstanding, quietly religious folk during the escape, which leads to the four of them realizing they have the perfect skillset now to pull The Ultimate Job, but only if they can convince their nemesis to join in on the plan.
     
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    open_sketchbook said:
    As if Heinrich would ever be a cop either.

    I'm picturing the two of them as bank robbers on the run fro both Officer Hammerl and the mob, stumbling onto a fishing boat run by a husband and wife of upstanding, quietly religious folk during the escape, which leads to the four of them realizing they have the perfect skillset now to pull The Ultimate Job, but only if they can convince their nemesis to join in on the plan.
    Click to expand...
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    10/10 would read.

    Ultimate Job... Looting a sunken submarine that forms the most secure vault in the known world?
     
    Rolling.

    EDIT: damn, almost a full success. Oh well.
    Wiadi threw 2 10-faced dice. Reason: 2d10+4 Total: 11
    8 8 3 3
     
    That last chapter was something else. No offense intended to either Wulf or Heinrich, but I'm glad they both live on the other side of the fourth wall from me. In some ways, they remind me of my very gay friend who makes exceedingly poor life choices.
     
    9-14: Out of the Game
  • Threadmarks
    • ---

    You had to grease surprisingly few palms before you got access to storage room used by the market stall that sold the workers their clothing. Essentially, it sounded like pay was so thin and work so intensive that everyone worked the foundaries, with the merchants just working them part time so they could run their shops as well. It seemed like a hellish pace to live at.

    The proprietor of the clothing shop was watching nervously at the door. You had a feeling he'd overcharge for anything you selected, but whatever. It was worth it.

    You decided to make this just a you and her thing, so Arren and Heinrich were presumably off doing their own thing. You weren't sure how Heinrich passed the time, but you were sure he probably had a lot of material conditions to study here, or whatever it is he went on about.

    "So, what are you thinking?" You asked.

    "I want practical clothing. Good for flying or fighting." Minna said. "And they need to be comfortable."

    "Trousers, skirts..?" You'd never seen her wear a skirt.

    "No skirts. There were skirts on my dress uniform and I hated that thing." She said, firmly.

    With the help of the owner, you started sorting out clothes in her size and laying them out, and Minna went through them one by one. She quickly gravitated towards a selection of polo neck shirts.

    "I like collars." She said, pulling another turtleneck from the pile. "They are nice and snug, but not overly masculine."

    "They're also really warm, Minna. You're going to overheat this summer." You pointed out.

    "Hmm..." She looked over one of the ones she was holding. "Well, true. What if we took some of the thinner ones, and cut the sleeves off for summer wear? The others can be for cold weather and flying."

    "That's ridiculous." The owner said instantly.

    "That's awesome." You countered. Minna had amazing muscle definition in her arms and really ought to show it off.

    "I figure I do not need a jacket, because I already have my team jacket... though, I do not like the leather on my arms." She said, examining some longer-sleeved options. "All I really need now is pants, and..." She looked down at her uniform trousers, green with a red strip down the side. "I like these ones a lot. They are very comfortable."

    "Hey, can you dye clothing?" You asked. There was an affirmative answer, and you shrugged. "There you go. Just get them in a different colour."

    "I like red. Dark reds, though." Minna said. "It is a striking colour, it will match the poppy on my plane, and it looks lovely on you, Isabelle."

    You felt yourself melt a bit, and justified in keeping your home's colours.

    You selected out a few more items, especially in light the new cargo plane meaning that she didn't have to restrict herself so much. You paid a frankly outrageous amount for it, Minna changed into some of the new clothes, and you walked out, her jackets left behind.

    "I... I do not want to leave them. I changed my mind." Minna said, turning back. You caught her arm.

    "You sure?" You asked. She stopped a moment.

    "... yes, I'm sure! But... I will get them to dye it too."

    ---

    It was starting to get late by this point, so you went and found some more terrible food and ate as a team. Heinrich had, unsurprisingly, spent the day taking notes on the town, dragging Arren in tow. Arren had done some sketches as he went, including some loose watercolours.

    "I dunno, I'm sorta liking the grey, red, and brass colour palette. It's really cool." Arren said as he showed you. As usual, it was incredible work, and how he did it was just completely beyond your comprehension. How had you ended up with somebody so talented?

    "I like it too. The reds especially." Minna said.

    "You know, you're allowed to have more than one colour in your ensemble, right?" Heinrich said, and was promptly ignored.

    Minna explained her plan going forward, including repainting her helmet ("I will still want it if I crash, of course.") and what she was going to do with her plane. She didn't want to paint over the whole thing all at once. Instead, she'd devised the very beautiful idea of simply covering it up with flower patterns, adding more whenever Arren was free to help her with it, though she wanted to learn to do herself as well.

    "My mother said the flowers that grow on battlefields is something good coming from something terrible. This is the same idea." She explained.

    "That's positively saccharine." Heinrich said, smiling. You were pretty sure that was a compliment.

    Your talk then turned to the upcoming discussion with Gail. Heinrich had a lot of good input. Minna mostly just listened.

    ---

    "Hey. How are you doing?"

    Gail sighed, long, exaggerated, staring at you the whole time.

    "Fine."

    "So... I had a talk with Minna." There was a beat. "The one you stabbed."

    She raised an eyebrow.

    "I don't care." She said simply.

    "Yeah, that's fair. Thought you ought to know that you were wrong about her, though."

    She looked unimpressed, so you continued.

    "We talked about her hometown and what it was doing. They lied to her about your village, and a lot of other stuff. We just got back from buying some new clothes." You explained.

    "So, what, you told your little stormtrooper about me and got a little crying session done over all the mean shit she enabled and all the people her friends are killing, and everything's all good now? Moral high ground all yours?"

    "That's not exactly fair..." You stammered.

    "You wanna come here and talk fairness? Tell me I should be nicer to the people who put a boot to my face, cuz they might not know I was underfoot?" She spat.

    "What, no, I just-" You reeled.

    "You're really fucking sick, you know that? Like, newsflash, motherfucker. You can't sit every bloodthirsty soldier and shitty town guardsman and ignorant farmer down and show them the ways they're wrong." Gail said. "You gonna try to talk to Goths out of taking you, huh? You gonna go have some words with Oberst Neufeld and ask him to stop being so mean?" She ended in a childlike voice, pleading.

    "I don't carry this thing for fucking show." You said, unclipping the holster of your oversized pistol.

    "You might as well, the way you shoot." Gail said dryly. "What would you have done if she'd been fine with it, huh? You'd have used that thing?"

    "... probably not." You said. "Seeing as she's wounded and unarmed. Woulda been overkill."

    She laughed, closing her eyes and leaning back against her pillow.

    "Either you're about to be really fucking hardcore and tell me you'd use your knife, or you're soft." She said.

    "Sorry to disappoint you." You responded. "I'm just not a super big fan of murder."

    "You're in the wrong line of business, then." Gail said, and you shook your head.

    "No, I think you've just been doing this business wrong." You said defensively. "Defending yourself, defending other people, that's not murder."

    "What's revenge, then?" She said.

    "Kinda pointless?" You said simply. "Like, how's the quest for vengeance working out for the Red Talons? How well you think you're going to do jumping us when we leave Piav, down yet another plane?"

    You kept it hidden, but you had a sudden and horrified revelation that Heinrich flew here alone. It's a good thing the Talons were still licking their wounds, because he could have gotten very dead.

    Gail was quiet.

    "Can you let me send them a telegram?" She asked. "They should know I'm okay, at least."

    "Yeah, sure." You said. "Though I don't think you're making it to the office. Write it down, I'll send it for you."

    She eyed you suspiciously, then nodded. You ducked out to retrieve some paper and a pen from Arren, transcribed her message, and headed to the telegraph station. The message, which you checked just in case, was simple. Letting whoever was on the other end that Gail was alive and unhurt. You imagined the team on the other end, in some tavern somewhere drinking to their dead friend, receiving the telegram, how it must feel. The response came promptly, and you headed back to the clinic with it.

    "You're in Messingwerks? We'll come pick you up." You read to her. She smiled sadly.

    "Yeah, probably for the best. Team'll be a little small without me."

    "You don't have to go if you don't want to." You said.

    "Are you about to hit me with a fucking recruitment pitch? I'm not interested." She said.

    "Wait, hold a second. First off, doesn't have to. We can bring you somewhere decent if you want. We actually know about this nice village in the mountains, it's a really good place to start over." If Wulf and Wexler could find a place there, Gail could.

    "... alright, fine. Hit me."

    "So, my outfit...." You started.

    "I'm not flying fighters for you." Gail said immediately.

    "That's fine, I don't want you to. We've got ourselves a new cargo plane and we need somebody to drive it. Pay's competitive enough, but get this. We'll have you on a... fuck, prohibitory period or something, I forget, point is, you make a good impression and the team votes to keep you around, we'll let you sign on. If you do, you'll get a vote so you can affect the company, and when you quit, you get a chunk of the company's money, just like that." You explained.

    "... fuck, that's a really good offer. You know what I get if I quit the Talons?"

    "Nothing?" You guessed.

    "Yep. Nobody's done it yet that I know of, though."

    Right. Heinrich speculated that's what kept them together, kept her going when she wanted to retire. When people do awful things as a group, it becomes a shared secret that can be a powerful binding force.

    Gail sat on that for a while, thinking.

    "I won't have to fight?" She said.

    "Not if you don't want to." You said.

    "I can quit at any time?"

    "You have to be with the crew a month before you get your percentage of the profits, but yeah, any time."

    She looked at her hands. "I... I dunno. Can you give me till tomorrow?"

    You nodded, and took a response to the telegraph office telling them to wait.

    ---

    The next morning, she told you she was done. No more missions, not for you, not for the Talons. She was out of the game.

    You were weirdly happy about that. "So, you need a lift to Sherpenven or wherever?"

    "Yeah, if you could." She said apologetically. "The doc says I'm good to be moved, though I won't be walking for at least another week."

    After a bit of negotiation, you gave her three thaler, which ought to be enough to cover her while she found a place to stay and got work. Heinrich volunteered to fly her out in your plane, which had just been repaired, the rudder having been fished out of the water and reattached a little stronger this time. You were grateful for the offer: your arm was still in the sling, and you had a little more motion but probably couldn't wretch the plane around too well.

    Minna and Gail met just once at the airfield, in passing. It sort of looked like they both wanted to say something, but neither of them did.

    "Gail, do me a favour when you get there. You meet this kid Wexler, please don't stab him?" You instructed.

    "... sure, I guess." She said. "Uh... thanks for being cool after you shot me."

    "Anytime." You said awkwardly, then Arren and one of the airfield crew helped her up into the copilot seat.

    "Hey, Heinrich, um, if the plane starts flying weird, it's probably the ghost." You explained to him. He stared at you like you'd grown a second head, then nodded.

    "Sure, cool. Ghost plane."

    Arren started the engine and the plane slid off the water and into the air.

    ---

    Heinrich's going to be back by the end of the day, then you can head to Piav.

    So far you've indulged one vice (Prayer). So let's finish that part off with what sort of stress relief and character stuff you want to do back in Piav, then we'll do shopping.

    I'll remind you that you have a birthday coming up in a few days, so a good set of snippet votes right now might be what Arren or Wulf gets Isa.

    Your finances are also updated.    ​
    Adhoc vote count started by open_sketch on Mar 26, 2019 at 8:03 PM, finished with 4240 posts and 9 votes.
    • [X] Plan: Build A Vice and Heinrich Acts Responsible
      -[X] Acquire and consume weed. Or rather, Wulf probably acquires, all who wish consume.
      -[X] Isa, Wulf, and Arren go dancing (and extend an invitation to the others)
      -[X] The Minnows look for a cargo pilot
      -[X] Heinrich tries to thesis
      -[X] Isa uses Contemplation to reduce Stress
      [X] Plan: That But With Contemplation
      -[X] Isa, Wulf, and Arren go dancing (and extend an invitation to the others)
      -[X] Isa goes shopping for a parachute (maybe more than one, if possible)
      -[X] The Minnows look for a cargo pilot
      -[X] Isa uses Contemplation to reduce Stress
      [X] Plan: Dancing through Life
      -[X] Isa, Wulf, and Arren go dancing (and extend an invitation to the others)
      -[X] Isa goes shopping for a parachute (maybe more than one, if possible)
      -[X] The Minnows look for a cargo pilot
      -[X] Isa uses Contemplation to reduce Stress
      [X] Hydrogen's cheap here (electricity). Hydrogen/chemical filled balloons explode wonderfully when combined with lasers, or just incendiary rifle ammunition
      [X] Isa contemplates, but Arren/Wulf are present in the circle. Shenanigans occur.
    Click to expand...
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • Well that was a thing. I suppose we can't collect every stray. I'm conflicted; Gail was pretty cool and there would have been a good story there, but she was also kind of an asshole and working through her issues increasingly looked more tedious thsn anything. Still, Minna is doing better, so that's really good. Just on that basis alone, I can't really complain about how this turned out.
     
    There was a realization I had that Gail's problems are not ones that Isa can hug out. Gail is not a great person in a lot of respects, but she's righteously angry about this and she doesn't owe Minna or Isa anything. I didn't want to write her giving ground, because I really think that would have been fucked up.

    I personally believe very strongly in trying to help people who have escaped or wanted to escape hate groups. I think it's important and I think it gives pathways for other people who are suckered by group think, fear, or their upbringing to leave those circles. The scene with Wexler exists because I believe this. But I'm not under the illusion that it's a solution in and of itself, and further I am aware that most people don't agree with this. This is a position I hold out of privilege (because I don't really have to confront hate groups as a threat to my person) and self-interest (as I've mentioned, when I was a young teen I was very nearly recruited by neo-nazis and escaped only because my point of contact was very inept.) I don't really have any effective and non-emotional argument when people point out that resources used to get people out of hate groups are better spent helping the victims of those groups, or more efficiently simply stopping those groups by whatever means is most economical.

    This was the mindset into which I entered these scenes, realizing that writing it the way I wrote other portions of the story had the potential to be incredibly offensive. Personally, I think I still fucked it up pretty badly, but I tried.

    I decided that on the roll, on a failure she goes with the Red Talons, on a partial she quits, and on a success she tries to bury it and joins the Minnows, and I'd deal with it when I get there.
     
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    Eh, can't say I'll miss her.

    The combination of her Holier than thou attitude and a complete lack of acknowledgement of what that attitude implies about her own actions is annoying. Not unrealistic (cognitive dissonance is real), but annoying.

    On a side note, are we sure that sending her to the same village as Wexler is a good idea. Because I'm pretty sure she will stab/shoot him. A promise to Isa's pretty much worthless in that regard.
     
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    open_sketchbook said:
    There was a realization I had that Gail's problems are not ones that Isa can hug out. Gail is not a great person in a lot of respects, but she's righteously angry about this and she doesn't owe Minna or Isa anything. I didn't want to write her giving ground, because I really think that would have been fucked up.

    I personally believe very strongly in trying to help people who have escaped or wanted to escape hate groups. I think it's important and I think it gives pathways for other people who are suckered by group think, fear, or their upbringing to leave those circles. The scene with Wexler exists because I believe this. But I'm not under the illusion that it's a solution in and of itself, and further I am aware that most people don't agree with this. This is a position I hold out of privilege (because I don't really have to confront hate groups as a threat to my person) and self-interest (as I've mentioned, when I was a young teen I was very nearly recruited by neo-nazis and escaped only because my point of contact was very inept.) I don't really have any effective and non-emotional argument when people point out that resources used to get people out of hate groups are better spent helping the victims of those groups, or more efficiently simply stopping those groups by whatever means is most economical.

    This was the mindset into which I entered these scenes, realizing that writing it the way I wrote other portions of the story had the potential to be incredibly offensive. Personally, I think I still fucked it up pretty badly, but I tried.

    I decided that on the roll, on a failure she goes with the Red Talons, on a partial she quits, and on a success she tries to bury it and joins the Minnows, and I'd deal with it when I get there.
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    That context makes a lot of sense. I think you're right; she doesn't owe us anything, and it wasn't really fair to expect more than this. In retrospect, we pretty quickly got to thinking of her like a successful recruitment was pretty much a done deal if we got through to Minna. Like it was fated by the plot or something. Which, to be fair, it showed some signs that would maybe point towards that in an ordinary, non-interactive work of fiction, but even so that is pretty fucked up. The way this ended up being handled seems appropriate.

    I'm generally more on the "smash the fash" side of the argument, at least so long as it takes place in the context of mass struggle rather than individual acts of violence, but this is a place where there are multiple perfectly good answers that work well together. There needs to be a way out for any who genuinely want it, and there needs to be other measures for those who don't, and there ought to be enough resources to go around that those don't have to be counterpoised. Recognizing where you are coming from and what experiences shaped your views is good, but you shouldn't have to beat yourself up over it in a case like this. If nothing else, there's enough people out there either making excuses for them or trying to convince everyone that ignoring them will make them go away that no one in their right mind ought to give you shit over thinking that helping get people out of hate groups should be part of how we address hate groups. You are allowed to hold the position you hold and not feel guilty about it. If you thought helping people get out of hate groups is the only thing we ought to do about hate groups, this would be a rather different conversation, but you clearly don't.

    And yes, I say this as a person who has only every really been exposed to the threat of violence from hate groups in situations that I chose to be in, but fuck it. The day we all stop taking action and start agonizing about whether we have too much not-physically-attacked-by-nazis privilege to be allowed to have opinions about what to do about nazis is the day we choose to let them win.
     
    open_sketchbook said:
    I don't really have any effective and non-emotional argument when people point out that resources used to get people out of hate groups are better spent helping the victims of those groups, or more efficiently simply stopping those groups by whatever means is most economical.
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    Like many arguments of this type ("We shouldn't spend on X before solving Y), it's a false dilemma. For any given cause, you'll always be able to find a more urgent, more important cause, until you end up with the most important cause of all.

    But that's not the way society works. We don't throw all our resources at the most pressing problem, we throw them all over the place. As such, there's no reason to assume that investing in deradicalization must come at the cost of helping victims. It's far more likely that it'll come from some other, different and far less pressing cause.
     
    10ebbor10 said:
    Like many arguments of this type ("We shouldn't spend on X before solving Y), it's a false dilemma. For any given cause, you'll always be able to find a more urgent, more important cause, until you end up with the most important cause of all.

    But that's not the way society works. We don't throw all our resources at the most pressing problem, we throw them all over the place. As such, there's no reason to assume that investing in deradicalization must come at the cost of helping victims. It's far more likely that it'll come from some other, different and far less pressing cause.
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    Exactly. Like, what if we funded it out of some of the money that is currently being used to line the pockets of oil companies or drone bomb civilians in the middle east? There's plenty of spare resources, but we've all been fed this line of bullshit about how all the money that goes to evil or useless things is sacred and the good causes have to fight it out thunderdome style to allocate what remains.
     
    Anyway, I'm really sorry about the last little bit. I've really not been writing my best. I'm trying, I'm sorry.

    The next part will be some compressed time, finally, as the Minnows kill a week or two while the cargo plane gets finished, so keep that in mind for plans and snippets.

    I will also just stop being so fucking depressing maybe idk.
     
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    open_sketchbook said:
    There was a realization I had that Gail's problems are not ones that Isa can hug out. Gail is not a great person in a lot of respects, but she's righteously angry about this and she doesn't owe Minna or Isa anything. I didn't want to write her giving ground, because I really think that would have been fucked up.

    I personally believe very strongly in trying to help people who have escaped or wanted to escape hate groups. I think it's important and I think it gives pathways for other people who are suckered by group think, fear, or their upbringing to leave those circles. The scene with Wexler exists because I believe this. But I'm not under the illusion that it's a solution in and of itself, and further I am aware that most people don't agree with this. This is a position I hold out of privilege (because I don't really have to confront hate groups as a threat to my person) and self-interest (as I've mentioned, when I was a young teen I was very nearly recruited by neo-nazis and escaped only because my point of contact was very inept.) I don't really have any effective and non-emotional argument when people point out that resources used to get people out of hate groups are better spent helping the victims of those groups, or more efficiently simply stopping those groups by whatever means is most economical.[/i]
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    I, for one, agree with you, for what it's worth.

    Helping to pull people out of the crazypit isn't mutually exclusive with helping victims of things being fired out of the crazypit. One of civilization's virtues, as compared to barbarism, is that it has a great deal of potential strength, and that there often is enough to go around to take both options at once.

    brmj said:
    That context makes a lot of sense. I think you're right; she doesn't owe us anything, and it wasn't really fair to expect more than this. In retrospect, we pretty quickly got to thinking of her like a successful recruitment was pretty much a done deal if we got through to Minna. Like it was fated by the plot or something. Which, to be fair, it showed some signs that would maybe point towards that in an ordinary, non-interactive work of fiction, but even so that is pretty fucked up. The way this ended up being handled seems appropriate.
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    I wouldn't characterize it as 'fucked up,' inasmuch as even a quest is a work of fiction with an author and the readers have to engage with things like foreshadowing if they want to fully engage with the quest itself. But I do agree that this outcome is probably better characterization than if Gail had just gone 'kaykay' and joined the Minnows without a qualm.

    And yes, I say this as a person who has only every really been exposed to the threat of violence from hate groups in situations that I chose to be in, but fuck it. The day we all stop taking action and start agonizing about whether we have too much not-physically-attacked-by-nazis privilege to be allowed to have opinions about what to do about nazis is the day we choose to let them win.
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    This is a good point, and for me it links well to something I said above.

    There are many many more non-Nazis than there are Nazis, but most of the non-Nazis are not themselves targets of Nazis. We'd do a lot better to take advantage of numbers by trusting everyone to do the best they can against Nazis, than to have half the reinforcements angst themselves right off the battlefield.

    open_sketchbook said:
    Anyway, I'm really sorry about the last little bit. I've really not been writing my best. I'm trying, I'm sorry.
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    [poke]

    The only thing you should be ashamed of is your excessive shame reaction! Iz fine!

    :p
     
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