What's the most Cringeworthy Alternate History you've ever read?

There also seems to be this weird idea in alt history if you solve the problems Rome faced at one point in it's history that means the empire would endure forever. That's not how nations work, that's not how anything works
I feel like that's a common thing in alt-history of any country- that if you just have them solve the problem(s) that historically ended them, they'd just continue existing forever.

Not as many stories, I feel like, where a country lasts longer, but still falls. Suppose that's harder.
 
There also seems to be this weird idea in alt history if you solve the problems Rome faced at one point in it's history that means the empire would endure forever. That's not how nations work, that's not how anything works

Like okay, suppose Pertinax survives, thus avoiding the Praetorian Guard selling off the imperial title, the year of the five emperors, the Severan dynasty, all that jazz. And let's suppose he is basically another Marcus Aurelius or something. That maybe gives Rome a few more good decades, but it's not going to magically ensure Rome has no problems for centuries to come.
I suspect it's related to the previously mentioned issue of Rome (or other ancient cultures) not just surviving in the new timeline, but surviving unchanged possibly even to the modern day. The latter actually leads almost naturally to the former; no changes, no new problems. There seems to be this assumption that if some key issue that historically led to the collapse of a culture was fixed, it would have just entered a steady state and kept on going as it was forever.

It's just that real cultures don't do that. I can imagine a Roman empire surviving to the modern day; its contemporary China (for example) did survive, after all. But just like China isn't the China of a thousand years ago, a modern Rome wouldn't be the same Rome and would have gone through all sorts of changes and travails in the process.
 
So I'm diving into alternate history based on Rome and I think I may have struck gold

Like Roman surviving is one thing, Rome surviving with it's peak borders is much more implausible, Rome surviving after Literally holding all of Germania is on a whole new level of what.
It has been argued that securing the Elbe or Vistula as a border would actually shorten the defensive lines, to there is that.

Take the above as given, and the biggest question is if Germania proves as assimilatable as the (continental) Celts.

There also seems to be this weird idea in alt history if you solve the problems Rome faced at one point in it's history that means the empire would endure forever. That's not how nations work, that's not how anything works
Get firmly into the habit of orderly successions, and one solves a lot of problems facing the Roman Military Dictatorship Empire.

Of course in OTL, they were still bungling this catastrophically in AUC 2094.
 
Does "Superman: Red Son" count?
 
It's pretty widely well regarded as far as I know. So while it's alternate history, I don't think it's accurate to lump it into a "most cringeworthy" catagory.
Fair enough, though Lex Luthor's global American conquest feels kind of cringeworthy to me personally?

Then again, it's a superhero comic, so characters like Lex and Superman have a certain ability to mould the narrative.
 
Fair enough, though Lex Luthor's global American conquest feels kind of cringeworthy to me personally?

Then again, it's a superhero comic, so characters like Lex and Superman have a certain ability to mould the narrative.
Yeah. It's not "America is unstoppable", it's "Lex Luthor is just that incredible, and happens to live in America".
 
Yeah, when the catalyst for a different path is "this side has Superman and isn't afraid to use him for military goals" it justifies things being radically different.
And, you know, space alien invasions, the island of the Amazons, and Brainiac all occured, which can also radically alter history.

I know other characters showed up, but they were mostly Lex's minions, especially the GL Marine Corp, right? Most probably didn't have as big an impact on the althistory environment.
 
I'd kinda be interested in a "realistic" take on Red Son, as in taking the basic ASB premise of "Superman taking power in Soviet Union after Stalin dies yet not willing to immediately conquer the world" and then try to treat it realistically and just throw out the other comic booky stuff.

My other thought is to throw Dr. Manhattan in there.
 
I'd kinda be interested in a "realistic" take on Red Son, as in taking the basic ASB premise of "Superman taking power in Soviet Union after Stalin dies yet not willing to immediately conquer the world" and then try to treat it realistically and just throw out the other comic booky stuff
Even the Red Son comics recognize that it would just be Utopia, right? Like, only started going downhill after Brainiac started getting his claws in Supes. After all, while we might say that absolute power corrupts, General Secretary of the Soviet Union, or even the Global Socialist Republic, isn't actually more power than just being The Last Son of Krypton. A Superman who also has the power to institute dramatic structural changes, basically at will?

It would be an interesting Utopia, especially if you give him the tech that came in his pod as a baby.
 
Superman's Soviet Union was implied to be far better than Stalin's by miles, but it tolerated no dissent. There's a reason that it fell to Batman revolts basically the moment Superman vanished.
 
I'm just wondering how

  1. How exactly would Supes go about reforming the Soviet Union.
  2. How is politics in the capitalist sphere and the United States in particular affected by there ideological rival being headed by what is essentially a god that could probably single-handedly take over the world in about a day if he really wanted to.
 
Superman's Soviet Union was implied to be far better than Stalin's by miles, but it tolerated no dissent. There's a reason that it fell to Batman revolts basically the moment Superman vanished.
Wasn't that Brainiac? This Superman was, at the beginning, to talk to Stalin's son who had just shot him and was really wanting to be the next leader himself, I feel like his default action, before Brainiac started to puppet him, would have been to have a sit-down with the dissenters, and either explain to their satisfaction why the problem was occuring, or change the policy. In the animated series, he kills Stalin outright with his laser vision when the extent of his monstrosity is revealed, to save peasants, I feel he'd go to similar extent to all the citizens of the SU. He is, after all, probably the only person to fully believe in the Soviet constitution.

How is politics in the capitalist sphere and the United States in particular affected by there ideological rival being headed by what is essentially a god that could probably single-handedly take over the world in about a day if he really wanted to.
A lot of rebels and domestic unrest are going to make Superman make some interesting decisions. He is the GenSec, after all, so if he intervenes on behalf of a black man in a KKK mob, it's not the hero of Truth, Justice, and the American Way telling them to stop, it's the leader of the uncontested superpower. Can he afford to do that? Can he afford not to?

What happens when Socialist rebels appeal for his aid in resisting oppression? Forget Cuba, what happens if workers in Paris ask for his aid, when they go on strike? Can the French Government even resist the strike, out of fear of Kryptonian intervention?
 
I'm just wondering how

  1. How exactly would Supes go about reforming the Soviet Union.
  2. How is politics in the capitalist sphere and the United States in particular affected by there ideological rival being headed by what is essentially a god that could probably single-handedly take over the world in about a day if he really wanted to.
I think that it's possible that capitalism might be more strident or reactionary as a result.

To flip the chessboard, I've always figured that in the Watchmen universe, Communists would be even more strident compared to OTL, and would be arguing that if it wasn't for a practical God taking on the side of the capitalists, that Marxism-Leninism would have proven its superiority already. I imagine that if the God ended up taking the side of the Soviets, something similar would happen in the USA. "Yes, socialism can work when you have God on your side, but take that away and it's just a bunch of nonsense."
 
Wasn't that Brainiac? This Superman was, at the beginning, to talk to Stalin's son who had just shot him and was really wanting to be the next leader himself, I feel like his default action, before Brainiac started to puppet him, would have been to have a sit-down with the dissenters, and either explain to their satisfaction why the problem was occuring, or change the policy. In the animated series, he kills Stalin outright with his laser vision when the extent of his monstrosity is revealed, to save peasants, I feel he'd go to similar extent to all the citizens of the SU. He is, after all, probably the only person to fully believe in the Soviet constitution.


A lot of rebels and domestic unrest are going to make Superman make some interesting decisions. He is the GenSec, after all, so if he intervenes on behalf of a black man in a KKK mob, it's not the hero of Truth, Justice, and the American Way telling them to stop, it's the leader of the uncontested superpower. Can he afford to do that? Can he afford not to?

What happens when Socialist rebels appeal for his aid in resisting oppression? Forget Cuba, what happens if workers in Paris ask for his aid, when they go on strike? Can the French Government even resist the strike, out of fear of Kryptonian intervention?

This kinda feels like a situation where the whole "world of cardboard" idea is even worse for him and he spends his life walking on eggshells, always calculating what actions of his would send shockwaves across the political world and upset the balance of the Cold War.
 
Speaking of this, am I the only one who wants to see the WRE timeline where their survival is not dependent on retaining/reconquering North Africa?
After the "five good emperors", the Economic Center moved from Italy to Africa.


well the Islamic conquests a few centuries
There is a possibility that Islam will not exist - which is good for Mediterranean trade - on the other hand, all economic power will be concentrated in Egypt and Syria.
 
Even the Red Son comics recognize that it would just be Utopia, right? Like, only started going downhill after Brainiac started getting his claws in Supes. After all, while we might say that absolute power corrupts, General Secretary of the Soviet Union, or even the Global Socialist Republic, isn't actually more power than just being The Last Son of Krypton. A Superman who also has the power to institute dramatic structural changes, basically at will?
Well, at least in the animation. I believe that Brainiac did not exist in the original comic.
 
what happens if workers in Paris ask for his aid, when they go on strike? Can the French Government even resist the strike, out of fear of Kryptonian intervention?
I imagine at least some of the territorial expansions followed this scenario, after all who is gonna stop him exactly?

Now what would be really interesting is having a Supes that lands pre-stalinism, thats gotta make for an interesting POD
 
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