What is a Good, Likeable Character?

The first of those things is entirely dependent on how many characters there are in the story, and in what roles.

The second, likewise, is totally story dependent. A story about a character doing the one thing that they're best at would be sue-ish by your definition.

"No flaws whatsoever" does not make a character sympathetic. It makes them unrelatable and alien.
That reminds me of Souji Tendou, heh. A man who is so good at absolutely everything that ultimately, his only fault is that he is incredibly prideful of himself, but even that is mitigated because he is, ultimately, right in that he is nearly perfect when compared to others.

And Kabuto ended up portraying him as an arrogant, definitely somewhat alien man who is more of a force of nature than a character, and the true protagonist is the person who ends up character-developing off of him.
 
They're sympathetic: They possess some trait that the reader can identify with

The problem people have at this step is that they often don't grok the nuance between a sympathetic character trait and a positive character trait. A character being relatable or sympathetic need not come from how good or nice they are, in fact it really often isn't.

One character I'd point to as a case study for this is Mae Borowski from Night in the Woods. She's a twisted knot of character traits usually seen as negative. She's reckless, obnoxious, insensitive, childish, kind of dim, is bad with people and worse with friends. She has zero filter and no dignity, and has a casual relationship with reality at best. But people like her character because these problems hook into people in a deep place where they can see these problems in themselves or the people they used to be. She's almost the polar opposite of your standard bland isekai protagonist, because instead of being a cipher for the player to project themselves onto, the player instead projects the character into themselves.

Theming is important here too, if you have a story where a strong thread is mental illness like Night in the Woods, that's going to draw people in who can relate to those problems. It's also important for the world to actually react to those problems, not really by punishing them or having 'consequences' but creating situations with the character that the reader might relate to, instead of having the character act a certain way and the story just not acknowledge it.
 
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They're sympathetic: They possess some trait that the reader can identify with
I thought Sanderson's lecture on making likable characters was really good and thorough.

A couple of ways of getting #3 (sympathetic characters) that I've read recently:
- Give them a weakness/vulnerability, like Miles Vorkosigan's physical disabilities, or Scarecrow's fear of fire.
- Give them a personality flaw the reader can identify with, like neurotic Bernard Marx.
- Use a first person perspective (seems weird, advice came from Sol Stein's book).
 
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Also, being likeable, active, and competent makes a character a sue? Really?
Generally yes; I know that the advice I've usually heard given is to write female characters as badly flawed to avoid people calling them "Sues". What is heroic or "badass" or even just decent in a male character makes a female character a "Sue". So female characters are deliberately written as cowardly, vicious or stupid to avoid getting called "Sues".
 
The problem people have at this step is that they often don't grok the nuance between a sympathetic character trait and a positive character trait. A character being relatable or sympathetic need not come from how good or nice they are, in fact it really often isn't.

One character I'd point to as a case study for this is Mae Borowski from Night in the Woods. She's a twisted knot of character traits usually seen as negative. She's reckless, obnoxious, insensitive, childish, kind of dim, is bad with people and worse with friends. She has zero filter and no dignity, and has a casual relationship with reality at best. But people like her character because these problems hook into people in a deep place where they can see these problems in themselves or the people they used to be. She's almost the polar opposite of your standard bland isekai protagonist, because instead of being a cipher for the player to project themselves onto, the player instead projects the character into them.

Theming is important here too, if you have a story where a strong thread is mental illness like Night in the Woods, that's going to draw people in who can relate to those problems. It's also important for the world to actually react to those problems, not really by punishing them or having 'consequences' but creating situations with the character that the reader might relate to, instead of having the character act a certain way and the story just not acknowledge it.

I think Ignatius Reilly from A Confederacy of Dunces is a good example of a sympathetic-but-unlikeable character.

He's lazy, misogynistic slob with no concern for how his behaviour affects others, and he thinks that Western society took a wrong turn at the Renaissance. But despite all this I find myself empathising with him, in particular how he's forced to live in a world he's clearly unsuited for.

(I haven't played Night in The Woods, though I've heard good things about it).
 
I've gone through the whole, "I hate Mary Sues" stage and personally have decided I don't give a fuck about Sue-ness in characters at this point. A lot of fiction is written as an escape from reality and also, a lot more "Mary Sues" get shit on more than "Gary Stus" and as a young woman who used to shit on her fellow teenage girls, I feel real bad for my internalized misogyny back then.

Everybody should be free to write whatever shitty self-insert they want, and if they want to write about a character that the entire fictional world revolves around, go for it. If they want to write about themselves dating all the hot anime boys, hell yeah, go for it.

What I personally don't go for is boring writing. I'll still support people's rights to write whatever they want, but I personally won't read or keep up with stuff that i'm not hooked in by. And I'll argue that it's totally possible for Mary Sue fiction to be entertaining and fun to read.

In general, good characters are interesting characters. Of course, if you know a character will always win a fight, that'll probably make them a Gary Stu, but it's that expectation resulting in the story being BORING, that kills the character.

It doesn't matter if you know they'll always win a fight if you set them up with a problem that isn't actually a fight. They might still be a Gary Stu, but they'll have an interesting plot to drive them on. Or maybe easier, it doesn't matter if you know they'll win in the end if you manage to write the story in a way that keeps the reader in the moment and makes them question that assumption.

That being said, it's easier to make a character that does actually suffer the consequences of their actions and isn't infallible, to be an interesting character. So having things not always go the way your character wanted, and then have that action have negative consequences that don't immediately get solved, will work pretty well in ensuring lack of sue-ness.
 



Behold, a really fun series about a student who others try and bully, but they fail because he's too flawless.
 
I think Ignatius Reilly from A Confederacy of Dunces is a good example of a sympathetic-but-unlikeable character.

He's lazy, misogynistic slob with no concern for how his behaviour affects others, and he thinks that Western society took a wrong turn at the Renaissance. But despite all this I find myself empathising with him, in particular how he's forced to live in a world he's clearly unsuited for.

(I haven't played Night in The Woods, though I've heard good things about it).

Ignatius J. Reilly would be a pretty good comparison (better than the Holden Caulfield comparison a lot of people went for), just without the pseudointellectualism, bigotry and creepiness.
 
Behold, a really fun series about a student who others try and bully, but they fail because he's too flawless.

The thing is that Sakamoto is meant to be a plot device that highlights the flaws of the characters he interacts with, and thus helps them to overcome their own faults so that they can grow to be better people. Those kinds of stories are fine because they actually have some kind of theme that goes on with them when compared to the "flawless mc protagonist who gets harem and nothing happens in the narrative" thing.

There is an isekai about an old man who is reincarnated into a game world and uses his grandfatherly wisdom to help out various heroines who are struggling with internal conflicts.

I think the Rain LN/Manga series is also a good example of how to do a gary stu character, as he is largely just a plot device to introduce readers to the world and the characters that inhabit them.
 
There is an isekai about an old man who is reincarnated into a game world and uses his grandfatherly wisdom to help out various heroines who are struggling with internal conflicts.

Off topic: can you send me a link to that? The premise alone sounds pretty nice.

On topic: aahhh...

See my personal problem with labeling characters Mary or Gary Sues/Stus is that sometimes, the labeler ignores the wider story as a whole. Personally I think this whole Mary Sue stuff has lost sight of what it was meant to be, and got turned into a phrase that's supposed to demean any strong character in story, regardless of gender.

Anyway. I think what should be taken away from this is that a character has to be relate-able. Sure some might enjoy reading a person effortlessly crushing evil, but then there's really no suspense and no real reason to get personally invested in said character, right? You're just here to read the story about a person slaying stuff.
 
The problem people have at this step is that they often don't grok the nuance between a sympathetic character trait and a positive character trait. A character being relatable or sympathetic need not come from how good or nice they are, in fact it really often isn't.

One character I'd point to as a case study for this is Mae Borowski from Night in the Woods. She's a twisted knot of character traits usually seen as negative. She's reckless, obnoxious, insensitive, childish, kind of dim, is bad with people and worse with friends. She has zero filter and no dignity, and has a casual relationship with reality at best. But people like her character because these problems hook into people in a deep place where they can see these problems in themselves or the people they used to be. She's almost the polar opposite of your standard bland isekai protagonist, because instead of being a cipher for the player to project themselves onto, the player instead projects the character into themselves.

Theming is important here too, if you have a story where a strong thread is mental illness like Night in the Woods, that's going to draw people in who can relate to those problems. It's also important for the world to actually react to those problems, not really by punishing them or having 'consequences' but creating situations with the character that the reader might relate to, instead of having the character act a certain way and the story just not acknowledge it.

This.

The key to writing good characters often isn't seeing what you'd do in their situation, but closer to seeing what they'd do in your situation.
 
Not every character who is powerful is a Sue. Not even a character with few to no major flaws is a Sue. It takes more then that.

True Sues are arrogant and smug. They effortlessly show up the other character and then proclaim about how stupid/weak/cowardly their opposition is.

A Sue can land in a completely unfamiliar world an immediately begin lecturing the natives about how that world works or how it's deepest mysteries operate and be right without having to do any form of investigation or study.

They never doubt themselves and are always certain that their method will easily solve the problem, because they know that regardless of how little in universe reason there is to expect their solution to work, the writer has already determined it will work.

A Sue is never truly upset or surprised. A Sue is a power fantasy for their creator and thus is never taken off guard unless it is to show how easily the Sue recovers.
 
It's difficult to give advice on how to avoid writing a Mary sue because the term is so widely applied it's hard to come up with a definition of what it is. The best thing I can come up with is that it warps the story around the character and often acts as a vehicle for author wish fulfilment. This can take many forms from "my power is maximum power leveler " to "everything with a pulse wants in my pants." To the more unconventional "eternally beleagured waif too pure for this world." Because of that I think the best test for a Mary sue is not power levels or number of positive traits (there are a lot of sues which are just petty evil assholes) but instead this: imagine your character getting hit in the face with a pie. They look silly and foolish and laughable. Now think about how that makes you feel. Are you mad? Do you feel personally attacked? Do you dislike the very idea of this character being made to look like a joke? If yes then perhaps you are too invested in the character to write them objectively. Shlocky wish fulfilment can be fun to write and read but it's stories that are not afraid to be vulnerable and honest that stick with us.
 
imagine your character getting hit in the face with a pie.
Thank you for saying this. But I also suddenly had more ideas for tests, so forgive me for piggybacking off your example.

Gross bodily functions would be great to test yourself.

Imagine your character farting. Imagine them having horrible diarrhea. Imagine them with a runny nose or a booger hanging out of their nostril. Projectile vomiting. Scratching their butt and/or other crevices. Hemorrhoids.

(Totally not a love note to Gintama what are you saying)

Even if they aren't human, thinking of them with a very mundane human problem can help clarify your own relationship with them.
 
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