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What age is it acceptable for Vampires to date?

Q99

Q99

There's a lot of vampire romance out there, and we all know that all the vampires dating teens* is pretty not-cool.

However, even once you get past that, someone being in their twenties doesn't make it great.

How much does the vamp's age turned matter? Someone who went in as a teen is in a somewhat different spot than someone turned at 60. How much does their actual age matter, how much does it differ between someone who's within the normal lifespan bounds and one who's lived for centuries?

What ranges can vampires date and have it not be skeezy?**



*And no, I'm not just calling out Edward. This is for you too, Spike, Angel, and so many others! Man or women, vampires? Don't date teens!

** Also we'll assume vamps who can feed without killing (be it draining non-fatally, animal or artificial blood working, or whatev), and of course no hypnotism, that automatically makes it skeezy.
 
Half your age plus 7? Does admittedly make things a little tough for vampires above the age of about 180...
 
1812 said:
Half your age plus 7? Does admittedly make things a little tough for vampires above the age of about 180...
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That's the question, is there a human age at which point it's pretty much always ok for someone to date, other circumstances permitting?

Should older ones only date other vamps?
 
The quickest "fix" to the creepyness algorithm is to treat the Vampire as 70 (or whatever the life expectancy of a normal human happens to be) even if they are older than that.

The algorithm is designed for human lifespans, and IMO starts to break down as the ages go up anyway even for normal humans.

I wonder to what degree vampires being predatory affects peoples' answer here. You can easily ask the same question of Asari, Elves, or boring immortal humans.
 
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It also comes down to whatever the rules for vampires are in your given fictional universe.

for example, in Touhou vampires live forever because their bodies and minds cease to change. So someone like Remilia who became a vampire at ~10 years old will remain ~10 years old forever, and thus she will never be old enough to date.
 
Leila Hann said:
Vampires are monsters who are literally metaphors for corruption, exploitation, and predation, with strong overtones of the old abusing the young.

So.
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Except when they're just cute anime girls with little fangs who age normally and don't even drink blood, because "Vampires" aren't real and are whatever the author wants them to be. Monster lore is nothing more than a giant game of Whose Line Is It Anyway with slightly more horny women.

Slightly.
 
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Best spinoff idea ever:

*Holding a wooden stake*

'Hi, I'm Chris Hansen from Dateline NBC. Why don't you have a seat right there?'
 
RoyalNoises said:
Except when they're just cute anime girls with little fangs who age normally and don't even drink blood, because "Vampires" aren't real and are whatever the author wants them to be. Monster lore is nothing more than a giant game of Whose Line Is It Anyway with slightly more horny women.

Slightly.
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Sooorta?

Words still do mean things, and "vampire" is a label for a category of fictional entities with certain common traits. You COULD call a creature that lacks those traits a vampire, but there's probably already a better word for whatever you've made.
 
Leila Hann said:
Sooorta?

Words still do mean things, and "vampire" is a label for a category of fictional entities with certain common traits. You COULD call a creature that lacks those traits a vampire, but there's probably already a better word for whatever you've made.
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Where you draw the line is completely arbitrary though. Most people would agree that Edward Cullen is a vampire, even though "Contagious Psychic Marble Golem" is just as accurate for his species. Do you only get to be a vampire if you're Bram Stoker accurate? What about Dio, is he a vampire, or is he a transhuman mesoamerican demigod who just has fangs and drinks blood?
 
Purely arbitrary number pulled out of my ass based on gut instinct:

Generally I'd put the thirties as a cut off point?

The thirties are about where I'd say that a person can reasonably be said to have had enough real life experience to decide that they are willing to accept a relationship with someone substantially older than they are.

Obviously, not everyone past the year thirty will be mature enough to not have an unhealthily unbalanced relationship with some 80 year old person who looks eternally in their 20s, but, well, there can be unhealthy relationships at any age, thirty just feels like a reasonable cut off point where there's a lesser chance of it being unhealthy. Obviously, though, the truth would have to be revealed before the relationship reaches a certain level, and a frank discussion of the possible issues that could arise in the relationship would need to be had, but if those conditions are met, I could see a reasonably healthy relationship ensuing.

(There could be edge cases, I can see a twenty six year old possibly handling such a relationship, but it's more of a general guideline that should be strongly considered than an ironclad rule. The teens are right out, though.)
 
RoyalNoises said:
Where you draw the line is completely arbitrary though. Most people would agree that Edward Cullen is a vampire, even though "Contagious Psychic Marble Golem" is just as accurate for his species. Do you only get to be a vampire if you're Bram Stoker accurate? What about Dio, is he a vampire, or is he a transhuman mesoamerican demigod who just has fangs and drinks blood?
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Bram Stoker didn't invent vampires. If anything, his take on them was something of an outlier at the time, though still totally recognizable.

Dio has...pretty much every single one of the traits I listed? Aside from the "old preying on the young" aspect, but he even picked that up too in part 3.
 
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Leila Hann said:
Bram Stoker didn't invent vampires. If anything, his take on them was something of an outlier at the time, though still totally recognizable.

Dio has...pretty much every single one of the traits I listed? Aside from the "old preying on the young" aspect, but he even picked that up too in part 3.
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None of those were really intended to be a refutation. They're just a demonstration of how weirdly wide and varied the idea of the vampire can be. The traits that you decided on aren't any more authoritative than Bram Stoker; but Dracula's still a vampire. Basically if an author says someone's a vampire, they are one.

I could just as easily have listed Ringworld vampires, which are pretty, predatory, and blood drinking, but are stupider than dogs and die at the age of 15. Still vampires. :p
 
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Q99 said:
There's a lot of vampire romance out there, and we all know that all the vampires dating teens* is pretty not-cool.

However, even once you get past that, someone being in their twenties doesn't make it great.

How much does the vamp's age turned matter? Someone who went in as a teen is in a somewhat different spot than someone turned at 60. How much does their actual age matter, how much does it differ between someone who's within the normal lifespan bounds and one who's lived for centuries?

What ranges can vampires date and have it not be skeezy?**



*And no, I'm not just calling out Edward. This is for you too, Spike, Angel, and so many others! Man or women, vampires? Don't date teens!

** Also we'll assume vamps who can feed without killing (be it draining non-fatally, animal or artificial blood working, or whatev), and of course no hypnotism, that automatically makes it skeezy.
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You're not really gonna be able to answer this, honestly, unless you default to "never." Half your age plus seven is a good rule of thumb for a human lifespan, just as a general "You won't end up with an unequal partnership" thing. But once immortals enter the equation, or even just extreme longevity, that rule of thumb goes out the window, and it comes down to "Look at the individuals involved".

Angel/Buffy actually ends up as one of these "look at the individuals". It's not a comfortable situation, but literally nothing about that entire debacle was remotely comfortable. Angel was a 90 year old broken shell of a man haunted by the 200 year old demon inside, Buffy was a teenage warrior ready to die any given night, kids were dying all over, and Buffy was exceedingly unlikely to ever reach her prime, much less anything like Angel's age.

Ultimately, their situation was for the worse. His curse triggered, much suffering and heartbreak followed, and the scars left on them were only sorta-kinda healing by the time the series ended. His perspective was warped, his age got in the way, the nature of how fucked up he was caused Buffy a lot of trouble as she tried to make the relationship work. But she was falling for him, him for her, and she was exceedingly unlikely to ever hit 30, much less 50 or 90. There's not really a "Wait for her to grow up" argument that isn't just "Stay back and let her die alone rather than let her make the mistake of loving you". Which is also not a thing I'd be comfortable saying to Angel, even if a fair argument can be made that it's right.

Buffy/Spike meanwhile I wouldn't even bother. Spike's a monster, even when he's got his soul back he's a fuck-up weirdo. She was traumatized to all hell when they were together, he was a broken monster, shit was fucked. It's actually a thing I always liked about Buffy. Just how bleak it all was, underneath the quips and comedy. The real answer to all the moral dilemma is pretty much "Don't bind demons to a reincarnating chain of heroism that appears in young women".

But, that happened, and now shit's fucked. Generally speaking though, outside Buffy's particular "I don't even fucking know, it's her choice and his fuckup, I guess" thing, my answer to this is "There's no good answer, but seriously don't date teenagers, and be aware that even with adults the age difference is likely to see this ending in heartbreak and misery for all involved".
 
Honestly just so long as the human is in the clear from being a teenager or very young adult I don't care. Most vampires not named Kane or Smiling Jack are basically overaged babby teenagers anyway.
 
Agreed with Reveen. Vampires probably shouldn't date at all given their proclivities, but if they're going to (so long as the relationship is mutual/truthful) age hardly matters so long as their SO is old enough to understand exactly what they're getting into.
 
Q99 said:
What ranges can vampires date and have it not be skeezy?**
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I will assume we're talking adult vamps here, and not, like a fledgeling who was turned at 16 and is barely a year older?
Don't date teenagers. Everything else is negotiable.
Preferably they'd be at least 25 with some life experience, but the only hardish rule I'd put is don't date teenagers.
 
Q99 said:
There's a lot of vampire romance out there, and we all know that all the vampires dating teens* is pretty not-cool.

However, even once you get past that, someone being in their twenties doesn't make it great.

How much does the vamp's age turned matter? Someone who went in as a teen is in a somewhat different spot than someone turned at 60. How much does their actual age matter, how much does it differ between someone who's within the normal lifespan bounds and one who's lived for centuries?

What ranges can vampires date and have it not be skeezy?**



*And no, I'm not just calling out Edward. This is for you too, Spike, Angel, and so many others! Man or women, vampires? Don't date teens!

** Also we'll assume vamps who can feed without killing (be it draining non-fatally, animal or artificial blood working, or whatev), and of course no hypnotism, that automatically makes it skeezy.
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By 30 any difference in age basically doesn't matter even on an immortal timescale. Individuals may be able to handle something like that in their 20's but that's a judgement thing.

The real question is whether it's ok for anyone to date vamps who were turned as teens and appear as such indefinitely.
 
king208 said:
By 30 any difference in age basically doesn't matter even on an immortal timescale. Individuals may be able to handle something like that in their 20's but that's a judgement thing.
The real question is whether it's ok for anyone to date vamps who were turned as teens and appear as such indefinitely.
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This......is a Very good question. And edges into ethically fraught territory.
Some teens really do look like adults and vice versa. It's part of the societally expected spectrum of appearance, at least in the West.
So I don't really expect that to be very much of an issue.

Not like it would be if we were talking about vampires turned while still children, like how Claudia from Interview With A Vampire was only ten years old when she was Turned, and frozen at that physical age.
And she looks younger.
 
Let's toss in another one. How does someone who wants to be vamped factor into it? It immediately tosses in a power imbalance thing and once someone is turned, then the turn-er is their 'sire'.

Unrelated (in the chain-of-biting sense) vampires aren't a problem there, but let's say there aren't any around who aren't no-go for other reasons. What rules should apply?

Leila Hann said:
Sooorta?

Words still do mean things, and "vampire" is a label for a category of fictional entities with certain common traits. You COULD call a creature that lacks those traits a vampire, but there's probably already a better word for whatever you've made.
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There's plenty of actual blood-suckers who are capable of human relationships, though. Like, Vampire the Masquerade vampires include tons of 'humans are prey' types but it's a major part of the setting that they can live with high humanity and not killing people, and stuff like 'gets blood from a mid-sized group of people they help out in return' isn't rare. Buffyverse vampires are of course pretty bad on the whole but again, you have Angel, and Angel dating an older human would be fine.

I agree that the ones who don't have to suck blood or such are a cop-out that aren't really worth including, but not all blooddrinkers are out.
 
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Q99 said:
There's plenty of actual blood-suckers who are capable of human relationships, though. Like, Vampire the Masquerade vampires include tons of 'humans are prey' types but it's a major part of the setting that they can live with high humanity and not killing people.
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Indeed. But at the heart of Vampire the Masquerade is the humanity score mechanic. You're constantly losing it, and becoming a worse and worse entity. You have to actively fight against the state of being a vampire in order to not be a force of corruption and destruction. Not every campaign leans into this, of course, but its clearly the intended mode of play.

The default setting is also written in a way that casts vampires as a whole in a pretty negative light. An individual vampire might manage to be okay, but vampires as a whole are metaphorical as well as literal bloodsuckers who preside over crumbling cities whose decay and suffering are largely of their own doing.
 
uju32 said:
This......is a Very good question. And edges into ethically fraught territory.
Some teens really do look like adults and vice versa. It's part of the societally expected spectrum of appearance, at least in the West.
So I don't really expect that to be very much of an issue.

Not like it would be if we were talking about vampires turned while still children, like how Claudia from Interview With A Vampire was only ten years old when she was Turned, and frozen at that physical age.
And she looks younger.
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Another example of the Child Vampire issue is Merilee Markuza from Ravenloft. 178 years old, looks 10-11. She's a respected author and chemist in the Victorian-ish Domain of Lamordia, publishing her works under the adult male pseudoname "Tempus LeMarc". I'll note that she doesn't show any romantic interest in anyone in her appearances in the material, but she's definitely an adult in personality, being enraged by people who treat her like a child. (She tends to kill them and feed their bodies to her ghouls)

Conversely she's (platonic) very close to Adam Mordenheim (not!Frankenstein's Monster), and the two respect each other immensely.

Of course Ravenloft and D&D in general are cultures that tend to overlook age a lot due to having long lived/immortal species being a known and common thing. Noone thinks anything of a 90yr old Elf dating an 18yr old human, because that's about the same point in their intellectual and physical development.
 
Leila Hann said:
Indeed. But at the heart of Vampire the Masquerade is the humanity score mechanic. You're constantly losing it, and becoming a worse and worse entity. You have to actively fight against the state of being a vampire in order to not be a force of corruption and destruction. Not every campaign leans into this, of course, but its clearly the intended mode of play.

The default setting is also written in a way that casts vampires as a whole in a pretty negative light. An individual vampire might manage to be okay, but vampires as a whole are metaphorical as well as literal bloodsuckers who preside over crumbling cities whose decay and suffering are largely of their own doing.
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Ok, but the question still applies for the individual vampire who does fight against it. What's the point in saying "vampires are predatory and it's never ok for them to date" when we're specifically talking about those ones who manage to keep things in line and trying to date in a non-predatory manner?

So what do you think the guildelines should be for the vamps who keep to Humanity 9 and 10 on the scale?
 
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