I mean, dwarves mostly existed to not run and have your characters actually kill stuff pre eigth. It just sucks that dwarf infantry do shit all except die slow enough. Even Iron breakers. ANd more tragically hammerers.
Warhammer: The Old World General Thread (Fantasy Battles also welcome!)
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I mean, dwarves mostly existed to not run and have your characters actually kill stuff pre eigth. It just sucks that dwarf infantry do shit all except die slow enough. Even Iron breakers. ANd more tragically hammerers.
Soulboundplayer
Brutal Kunnin' Smasha Cunning Brutes
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Axslashel
I am a pessimist not a realist.
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I am now not regretting selling my dwarfs as much as I did a before. Dwarf Quarrellers with great weapons were pretty fun to play in 8th edition. Less fun for my opponent who had to march towards my gunline just to be smashed with big axes when they finally charged me though. Now I just need to wait a bit to see if anyone in my area is going to play and if the miniature stock is being replenished. I feel I might want to play the total opposite of dwarfs this time around which would be Bretonnia. But maybe some other faction will catch my interest.
I feel like wood elves are the more opposite of opposites for dwarves.
Like dwarves are fine for winning games. Heck they are a whole block of frustration to try and beat, though the new leadership stuff actually kinda hurts them rather than helps, but dwarf infantry is just trash at actually hurting stuff in an edition where their slow asses get killed out before they get to swing. It's not like their attacks are high quality anyways. Only hammerers actually fight good, and you better believe they are the worst unit in a kill the front ranks edition.
Like dwarves are fine for winning games. Heck they are a whole block of frustration to try and beat, though the new leadership stuff actually kinda hurts them rather than helps, but dwarf infantry is just trash at actually hurting stuff in an edition where their slow asses get killed out before they get to swing. It's not like their attacks are high quality anyways. Only hammerers actually fight good, and you better believe they are the worst unit in a kill the front ranks edition.
Axslashel
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Dwarfs are slow moving, tough and focuses a lot on ranged attacks. Wood elves are fast, quite fragile and shooting focused. Bretonnia is fast, not that tough in a drawn out fight and focused on charges. A lot of armies can be described as the opposite of dwarfs. But let's say that playing Empire is very much not the opposite of dwarfs for example.
Old Spice Guy
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Iron breakers don't die at all and with s4 and AP are actually pretty good killers now. Hammerers too because I don't think their hammers have the great weapon initiative penalty - pretty sure at I4 they actually strike at the same time as charging enemies with great weapons which is super good.
I think you're doomsaying quite a lot here tbh. Especially with heavy armor as standard. In a game with less armor and AP in general that's a big positive that absolutely counters lower movement. No more 1+ and barely any 2+ makes a big big difference.
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I would have to see how rules work for tOW, but I can understand these concerns because gameplay changed significantly in 8E so people looking at 6E / 7E style combat mechanics in 8E would rightfully be concerned.
Specifically in 8E Armor Piercing and S4 are passed around like candy. Likewise people frequently built towards Deathstars because the whole "Everyone gets to attack back everyone fights in two ranks" leading to shit like "My Orcs are charged by your Ogres, now I counterattack with 40 WS4 S5 attacks". With 8E on the mind "Yeah casualties don't get to attack back you fight in one rank also saves are generally more bound" sound utterly terrifying.
It's just I don't have the tOW rules in front of me. And if it's like 6E and 7E that's a generally reduced concern because part of the whole advantage of Deathstars in those editions was you could justify those enormous point costs because Steadfast and Throwing Entire Goblets Of Dice. In 6E meanwhile a charging unit getting 18 attacks was mean [the sort of thing you generally only saw with Frenzy], and more often you were looking at around 6-13 [depending on if it was 20mm or 25mm, base attacks / equipment, presence of a champion, etcetera]. Likewise if this is a turn back to 6E / 7E in some regards there might be significantly less "Naked S4" models.
I don't want to doom and gloom from a meta perspective as subtle things can change calculus' enormously.
Specifically in 8E Armor Piercing and S4 are passed around like candy. Likewise people frequently built towards Deathstars because the whole "Everyone gets to attack back everyone fights in two ranks" leading to shit like "My Orcs are charged by your Ogres, now I counterattack with 40 WS4 S5 attacks". With 8E on the mind "Yeah casualties don't get to attack back you fight in one rank also saves are generally more bound" sound utterly terrifying.
It's just I don't have the tOW rules in front of me. And if it's like 6E and 7E that's a generally reduced concern because part of the whole advantage of Deathstars in those editions was you could justify those enormous point costs because Steadfast and Throwing Entire Goblets Of Dice. In 6E meanwhile a charging unit getting 18 attacks was mean [the sort of thing you generally only saw with Frenzy], and more often you were looking at around 6-13 [depending on if it was 20mm or 25mm, base attacks / equipment, presence of a champion, etcetera]. Likewise if this is a turn back to 6E / 7E in some regards there might be significantly less "Naked S4" models.
I don't want to doom and gloom from a meta perspective as subtle things can change calculus' enormously.
Axslashel
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Ironbreakers have super good 4+ armour IIRC. So a 3+ with shields. And AP is not tied to strength anymore so you will most likely have at least a 4+ save.
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Mopman43
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'Gromril Armor' as a special rule now also lets you reroll 1s on your armor saves. Only available to Ironbreakers, Irondrakes, and characters.
It's an interesting bit of standardization that 'Full Plate Armor' seems to now be the universal term for any 4+ Armor rather than only being what the Empire had.
Old Spice Guy
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Heavy armor is a 5+ still. Ironbreakers have full plate and shield with the gromril rule, so 3+ rerolling ones and a 6+ ward against non magic. They are super tough. And S4 Ap-1 is really good now the new AP rules make it rarer. Hammerer hammers also do ignore the GW penalty.
Dwarves are really really good.
Nemesis_Scar
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Pretty happy with the CD list, though pure CD is an expensive (points-wise) list.
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Of note the first round of The Old World Made to Orders should be live. Tomb Kings are both varieties of metal Prince / King, plus the metal Liche Priests and the Icon Bearers. Bretonnia has a tad more selection.
Old Spice Guy
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Those Damsel models hold up surprisingly well. The Lord with Axe too. Think the new BSB and Pegasus Lord look better though.
I think some of those are still Perry scuplts and you can tell they know their armor. Just beautiful.
I think some of those are still Perry scuplts and you can tell they know their armor. Just beautiful.
Nemesis_Scar
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Finally got my books. They're professional pieces of kit.
The rules look good, too.
The rules look good, too.
Old Spice Guy
The Man Your Man Could Smell Like
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About to shoot GW an email to see if they will ever consider Dogs of War made to order. Highly doubt it, but a man can dream!
Old Spice Guy
The Man Your Man Could Smell Like
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I've ordered one of everything except the damsels and Axe Lord. 2 of each of those.
Axslashel
I am a pessimist not a realist.
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The new foot and horse BSB is resin though. The made to order one is metal. The former kit is also twice as expensive than it should be. The made to order models are actually surprisingly well priced for metal miniatures. $10 for a character is affordable.
Really? They cost $35 bucks total for me.
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I can speak from experience that the Liche Priest and Tomb King blisters use to be only $15 apiece back in the early 00's. GW remains fairly high priced in the market for most of their non-LotR line [and even that's been creeping up, and has been up with the metal bits for over a decade].
It's just that at the same time these are Made to Order are still significantly cheaper than 2nd-hand suppliers or auction sites like eBay. You wouldn't think $85 for three Ushabti would be cheaper, but for a while they went for about $40-50 per in many instances and the Ushabti with Bows could go for over $200 for a box. The Icon Bearer is something of a steal because if I can get my hands on one of the old metal Tomb Guard drummers the whole command set currently has been going for about $50-$75.
It's just that at the same time these are Made to Order are still significantly cheaper than 2nd-hand suppliers or auction sites like eBay. You wouldn't think $85 for three Ushabti would be cheaper, but for a while they went for about $40-50 per in many instances and the Ushabti with Bows could go for over $200 for a box. The Icon Bearer is something of a steal because if I can get my hands on one of the old metal Tomb Guard drummers the whole command set currently has been going for about $50-$75.
Axslashel
I am a pessimist not a realist.
- Location
- Land of the Midnight Sun
I can order the Tomb Kings made to order models for $10 a piece right now. That means they must have gone down in price. The 2 model BSB and Lich priests kits are still $35 total and $17 apiece though. If they weren't out of stock I could get the 4 Ushabti for $60. Does the prices really differ that much between regions?
Of course that is still much more expensive than 3rd party proxy models but those are generally not allowed in tournaments (with the possible exception of the ex-Citadel metal models sold by Wargames Foundry).
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Here it's $15 for the individual Kings, $45 for the Icon Bearers & Priests, and $85 for x3 Ushabti.
Yeah, if playing from home your best bet may be 3rd party proxies. But for official a lot of these remain cheaper than buying earlier releases of the same.
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Hm. Yes. Seeing as how in the two weeks since The Old World's launch we have had a sum of four articles on Warhammer-Community (two of them relating to the same Made to Order and one the Legacy Support for the 'minor' factions), I'm starting to believe there may indeed be merit to the claims that it's not expected to do well on its own / is being used as promotional material for Age of Sigmar.
Nemesis_Scar
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Idk if I'd agree. It takes time to release stuff, especially entire ranges at a time.
Axslashel
I am a pessimist not a realist.
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Well that just is not going to work because Age of Sigmar is not the same type of game at all. This is for people who want the rank and file gameplay from historical wargames but with dragons, magic and fantasy races.
And the people I know locally would rather play GW's LotR game instead if they want to play skirmishers.