Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I'm pretty sure they'd said that some of the made-to-order models they'll be doing will be metal ones.
Warhammer: The Old World General Thread (Fantasy Battles also welcome!)
- Thread starter Soulboundplayer
- Start date
Nemesis_Scar
Опомнись
- Location
- The Earthly City, not the one on a hill
- Pronouns
- She/They
My FLGS is making The Flash themed shitposts about the winter weather. I'm not getting those books on time lol.
Dezron
In the Omnissiah we trust !
- Location
- Poland
Soulboundplayer
Brutal Kunnin' Smasha Cunning Brutes
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- He/Him
Dang, beat my by a few minutes!😆 Looks pretty cool imo, but then I'm a sucker for greenskins
Chlof
Her Ladyship
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The old greenskin models hold up surprisingly well, though the boars on those chariots are a little goofy. Definitely feels like they're modelling the release plan for OW on Horus Heresy 2nd ed which I think I'm OK with? Time will tell if it works out the same way but already having a solid core of plastic models to draw on for each army would work pretty well with that type of approach, even if some are pretty dated.
- Location
- Drachyench on Discord
I think part of the reason the Orcs hold up really well [along with any Night Goblins] is the very distinct aesthetics they have. Orcs and Orks have changed rather little over the decades [compared to Orruks], likewise Night Goblins. So despite some of the line's sprues being 20+ years old, they still have it since it's just so. Iconic? Sort of like how long the base 3E Space Marines worked and still work for 40K.
Axslashel
I am a pessimist not a realist.
- Location
- Land of the Midnight Sun
Now I personally love the Tomb Kings but some of the choices of faction to keep and not to keep seems odd. Sure the Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Ogre Kingdoms and Chaos Dwarfs are a bit too far away to participate in the Old World and are maybe not the most popular choices. But Skaven? Skaven are as far as I know one of the most beloved factions and they are hilariously easy to slot in because they are already in the Old World. Daemons can be slotted in as extra units to normal Warriors of Chaos and I guess the Vampire Counts still slumber but Skaven is such an essential faction.
The choice to bring back Brettonia and give them some love is a bold decision I applaud on the other hand. They always suffered in 8th edition by not having a new army book. Maybe it is easier to sell an army not that many people already have.
- Location
- Drachyench on Discord
I've mused elsewhere that in some regards just how similar Skaven are might be in fact part of the issue with them.
Skaven are supposed to be Chaos and chaos alike. They are notorious backstabbers with constant jockeying for power. Clan Skryre is on the cutting edge of technology behind perhaps only the Chaos Dwarves. Clan Moulder is perpetually on the march for new creatures. Pestilens is creating plague after plague. Barring the cream of the crop at the very top of society, even the lives of Clan Leaders is cheap and measured in a constant, brutal perpetuality of treachery, backstabbing, political maneuvers, etc.
You can almost 1:1 them with the Age of Sigmar line up to and including at least one character from the World That Was. The major Clans have gone unchanged, or at least half of them.
Seeing as how part of the narrative point they're trying to sell for Old World is it not being the world of End Times, that... might prove a bit awkward.
Skaven are supposed to be Chaos and chaos alike. They are notorious backstabbers with constant jockeying for power. Clan Skryre is on the cutting edge of technology behind perhaps only the Chaos Dwarves. Clan Moulder is perpetually on the march for new creatures. Pestilens is creating plague after plague. Barring the cream of the crop at the very top of society, even the lives of Clan Leaders is cheap and measured in a constant, brutal perpetuality of treachery, backstabbing, political maneuvers, etc.
You can almost 1:1 them with the Age of Sigmar line up to and including at least one character from the World That Was. The major Clans have gone unchanged, or at least half of them.
Seeing as how part of the narrative point they're trying to sell for Old World is it not being the world of End Times, that... might prove a bit awkward.
Soulboundplayer
Brutal Kunnin' Smasha Cunning Brutes
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Admittedly, my knowledge of Skaven and overall Old World history isn't great so I may well be wrong here, but as far as I'm aware Skaven are lorewise occupied with the Second Skaven Civil War during the entire period the Old World is meant to take place. A 400-year long conflict on an incredibly massive scale, it pretty much saw all the Great Clans commiting more or less everything they had in bids to secure their own prominence. The conflict was only resolved by the Horned Rat himself manifesting physically in reality in 2302, placing down the Pillar of Commandments and explicitly telling Skavenkind to cease the civil war, as the Second Great War against Chaos was right on the cusp of breaking out.
I believe that might possibly be the lore reason they go with for not including Skaven, them just being far busier than usual with killing eachother and thus unable to commit any real forces to the surface, but presumably GW has some non-lore reasons as well for not putting them in Old World
Axslashel
I am a pessimist not a realist.
- Location
- Land of the Midnight Sun
I just saw they put the "if you are initiative killed the unit behind that fills the spot can't attack back" rule. I guess we are back to the cavalry and high initiative meta of 7th edition. And here I actually liked my great weapons equipped dwarf warriors.
- Location
- Drachyench on Discord
Seeing as how the charging bonus is to Initiative and no longer the fixed "Automatically go first", I must ask if Great Weapons merely reduce you to I1 / I0 or if they're explicitly ASL. As if ASL, that's brutal for Great Weapon troops. Part of the tacticality of Great Weapons in earlier editions was the mental calculus of if you wanted to risk them charging against you next turn and getting their full ensemble. Without that they're just Objectively Worse Halberds in several regards.
Old Spice Guy
The Man Your Man Could Smell Like
- Location
- Riding a horse, backwards
I1. Charging with great weapons is pretty good now. Armor saves are also lower, no more 1 ups and barely anything has a 2+ either. With the bump back and fall back in good order rules you still get to fight and barring dicey dice, great weapons are not terrible, everything now is more balanced.
I also think you'll see way fewer halberd units now with the new AP rules - Chaos Warriors actually get more AP and are tankier with shields because of ensorcelled wweapons. Tougher units will be very good. Ironbreakers in particular are probably going to be nightmares with 3+ rerolling 1 and AP-1.
Axslashel
I am a pessimist not a realist.
- Location
- Land of the Midnight Sun
The enemy that charged you will pursue and get the charge bonus again next turn. In a 5 files wide unit it only takes 5 kills before you have literally no models to fight back with.
I know the 8th edition rule with 10 file wide units had to go because those units were to big but I feel the rules went a bit far. These rules are probably more realistic though but I am not sure being on the receiving end will be any fun.
Old Spice Guy
The Man Your Man Could Smell Like
- Location
- Riding a horse, backwards
That's only on Fall Back in Good Order, not bump back. Bump back means the charger runs the risk of getting charged in the next turn so they have to decide whether to follow up and get cut up or get charged and cut up.
Breaking units on a first charge even with Grail Knights isn't a sure thing. The really terrifying things are Demigryphs with a 2+ and 3 s5 ap-1 attacks, but they're very expensive. Even they might struggle with Ironbreakers. Tanky units are really really good now. (Ironically the Steam Tank is now only 3+ but t7 is super good)
I really like this system a lot.
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Axslashel
I am a pessimist not a realist.
- Location
- Land of the Midnight Sun
I assume Bump Back is the Loser Gives Ground rule. You are right then actually. No one gets the charge bonus the next turn.
It is a bit better but I feel sorry for the old low quality units that won through sheer numbers.
Now as I sold off my old dwarf army when the game shut down in 2015 I would have to start from scratch. Brettonia seems interesting.
Old Spice Guy
The Man Your Man Could Smell Like
- Location
- Riding a horse, backwards
You can still do well with low quality hordes. Horde rule gives more rank bonuses which really matter now and tarpits are going to be very very important. Not everything gets it, but enough does.
- Location
- Drachyench on Discord
It's also worth noting that originally cheap hordes were still very useful back when "Chargers always strike first [barring magic items or special rules], everyone fights in one rank by default, casualties get removed from attacks back, and there is no Steadfast".
Specifically you tended to wield them in one of two fashions:
+ First, you gave them spears. Spears weren't amazing for a lot of non-High Elf and non-Lizardmen armies [a lot of the troops who could be armed with them would be WS2 to WS3, WS4 for rare exceptions like Druchii and Asrai; likewise most of them would be S3 without nice features such as Armor Piercing]. But what they did was effectively brace against light cavalry, beasts [such as dire wolves], units relying on charge bonuses to break [Marauders with Flails, who otherwise might as well have been Empire Swordsmen if they failed to break on the charge], or similarly low quality infantry [such as Skeletons & Zombies, Bretonnian Men At Arms, even things like lightly armored Orcs].
The solid base of three ranks + standard + in several cases [or at least ideally in the case of Undead] Outnumber meant that in terms of active combat resolution they started with a floor of five that could potentially increase with attacks back [see High Elves fighting in three ranks with their spears, or Saurus getting additional attacks from the front rank and being Heavy Infantry]. Likewise if the unit was relying on the charge to succeed, there was a risk calculus for what happens if they failed to break through [often times, getting mulched by disproportionate attacks back in later turns]. Any attached characters + Champion were intended to eat up any of their own front rank characters / Champions, because ignoring them meant guaranteed attacks back [and again these were often situations the attacker was banking on active combat resolution to Break] and winnowed the differences in Combat Resolution significantly.
+ The second use of cheap hordes was "Light armor, hand weapons + shields, maybe a War Banner if it's available". These bricks served all of one purpose and one purpose only: Being cheaper anvils than more heavy alternatives. Back in the 6E and 7E era high strength plus armor piercing was relatively limited, likewise attacks going out, so a unit with a 4+ save [or, better yet, a 4+ save and T4] could be irksome to body. And while they couldn't press with the attacks back like Spearmen [and didn't have the Steadfast or 6++ saves of 8E], that was never their goal. Their goal was to bring somebody's battle line to a halt. Force them to either need to hold back in the case of counter-charges, or maneuver to flank a unit that in the end probably only cost their opponent a good 200-250 points [I remember my 25 Orcs w/ Full Command and Shields cost something like 205 points] and so took disproportionate deployment and maneuvering to dislodge.
The exceptions tended to be, for points of easy comparison, things like either Night Goblins or 7E Common Goblins.
+ The Night Goblin style units were those that had something attached to make things even more miserable for their chargers. Night Goblins released Fanatics, who - depending on the edition - were anywhere from 3d6 to 6d6 S5 hits on the enemy if things went wrong. This was basically an insurance by the Night Goblins against either Heavy Cavalry [for whom even just 1d6 S5 No Save hits was potentially maneuver ruining] or similar bricks [since a good 2-4 d6 hits risked taking out a couple ranks, which could give the Night Goblins more starting Active Resolution to be overcome]. Other armies had this in the form of things like Skaven Weapon Teams, or Empire Detachments. Units that via special rules supplemented others: Handgunners might Stand and Shoot [risking the loss of a rank bonus or even - if particularly violent - causing a Panic check], the State Troops counter-charging, etcetera. Skaven would often go ham at these points because a lot of their stuff was particularly dangerous and vicious at close range [Warpfire Throwers, Gatling guns using more than 1D6, etc].
Point is they supplemented by softening the target one last time before they hit proper, hoping that the base unit's sheer size and cheapness [40 Night Goblins, with Command and two Fanatics, was approximately 160-200ish points depending on the edition; Clanrats not much different though probably only 30 big at that price range].
+ 7E Common Goblins are used as a reference due to being in the same line, but a more apt comparison might be Skaven or even Dark Elves. Specifically these units had the risk of hiding something in it that was a big Fuck You. In Common Goblins this was Sneaky Skulkers, who came out with something like 6-9 attacks that had Killing Blow on the first turn and, IIRC for 7E too [definitely 8E], ASF on the turn they're revealed. These Skulkers were basically Goblin stats so they were minimally useful for active combat resolution... but were goddamn terrifying for attached characters charging the unit because Killing Blow. Yeah, you have a nice hammer of 18 remaining Iron Breakers lead by a Thane. But do you really want to risk that Thane getting unlucky and eating shit? They're Goblins, there's a one-in-six chance they spend the next turn bickering harmlessly and you can put more munitions into them. And if they charge what are they going to do? They're Goblins.
For other armies the calculus might be a bit more different (Druchii and Skaven Assassins are no slouches, being high WS and in the Skaven's case S4 to boot before magic items or venoms on either], but being able to also attack basic troops just further made clear what their function was. Mind games. Did they take an Assassin? Can you be sure? Does that look like 2000 points of stuff in front of you? Would they have put it in with their anvil as a Fuck You surprise to anyone trying to break the flank, or did they hide it with their General inside the Stormvermin to make a deathstar?
tl;dr Before 8E there were a number of uses for low-stat mediocre equipment units between just existing and also special rules that often came with them or their army.
Specifically you tended to wield them in one of two fashions:
+ First, you gave them spears. Spears weren't amazing for a lot of non-High Elf and non-Lizardmen armies [a lot of the troops who could be armed with them would be WS2 to WS3, WS4 for rare exceptions like Druchii and Asrai; likewise most of them would be S3 without nice features such as Armor Piercing]. But what they did was effectively brace against light cavalry, beasts [such as dire wolves], units relying on charge bonuses to break [Marauders with Flails, who otherwise might as well have been Empire Swordsmen if they failed to break on the charge], or similarly low quality infantry [such as Skeletons & Zombies, Bretonnian Men At Arms, even things like lightly armored Orcs].
The solid base of three ranks + standard + in several cases [or at least ideally in the case of Undead] Outnumber meant that in terms of active combat resolution they started with a floor of five that could potentially increase with attacks back [see High Elves fighting in three ranks with their spears, or Saurus getting additional attacks from the front rank and being Heavy Infantry]. Likewise if the unit was relying on the charge to succeed, there was a risk calculus for what happens if they failed to break through [often times, getting mulched by disproportionate attacks back in later turns]. Any attached characters + Champion were intended to eat up any of their own front rank characters / Champions, because ignoring them meant guaranteed attacks back [and again these were often situations the attacker was banking on active combat resolution to Break] and winnowed the differences in Combat Resolution significantly.
+ The second use of cheap hordes was "Light armor, hand weapons + shields, maybe a War Banner if it's available". These bricks served all of one purpose and one purpose only: Being cheaper anvils than more heavy alternatives. Back in the 6E and 7E era high strength plus armor piercing was relatively limited, likewise attacks going out, so a unit with a 4+ save [or, better yet, a 4+ save and T4] could be irksome to body. And while they couldn't press with the attacks back like Spearmen [and didn't have the Steadfast or 6++ saves of 8E], that was never their goal. Their goal was to bring somebody's battle line to a halt. Force them to either need to hold back in the case of counter-charges, or maneuver to flank a unit that in the end probably only cost their opponent a good 200-250 points [I remember my 25 Orcs w/ Full Command and Shields cost something like 205 points] and so took disproportionate deployment and maneuvering to dislodge.
The exceptions tended to be, for points of easy comparison, things like either Night Goblins or 7E Common Goblins.
+ The Night Goblin style units were those that had something attached to make things even more miserable for their chargers. Night Goblins released Fanatics, who - depending on the edition - were anywhere from 3d6 to 6d6 S5 hits on the enemy if things went wrong. This was basically an insurance by the Night Goblins against either Heavy Cavalry [for whom even just 1d6 S5 No Save hits was potentially maneuver ruining] or similar bricks [since a good 2-4 d6 hits risked taking out a couple ranks, which could give the Night Goblins more starting Active Resolution to be overcome]. Other armies had this in the form of things like Skaven Weapon Teams, or Empire Detachments. Units that via special rules supplemented others: Handgunners might Stand and Shoot [risking the loss of a rank bonus or even - if particularly violent - causing a Panic check], the State Troops counter-charging, etcetera. Skaven would often go ham at these points because a lot of their stuff was particularly dangerous and vicious at close range [Warpfire Throwers, Gatling guns using more than 1D6, etc].
Point is they supplemented by softening the target one last time before they hit proper, hoping that the base unit's sheer size and cheapness [40 Night Goblins, with Command and two Fanatics, was approximately 160-200ish points depending on the edition; Clanrats not much different though probably only 30 big at that price range].
+ 7E Common Goblins are used as a reference due to being in the same line, but a more apt comparison might be Skaven or even Dark Elves. Specifically these units had the risk of hiding something in it that was a big Fuck You. In Common Goblins this was Sneaky Skulkers, who came out with something like 6-9 attacks that had Killing Blow on the first turn and, IIRC for 7E too [definitely 8E], ASF on the turn they're revealed. These Skulkers were basically Goblin stats so they were minimally useful for active combat resolution... but were goddamn terrifying for attached characters charging the unit because Killing Blow. Yeah, you have a nice hammer of 18 remaining Iron Breakers lead by a Thane. But do you really want to risk that Thane getting unlucky and eating shit? They're Goblins, there's a one-in-six chance they spend the next turn bickering harmlessly and you can put more munitions into them. And if they charge what are they going to do? They're Goblins.
For other armies the calculus might be a bit more different (Druchii and Skaven Assassins are no slouches, being high WS and in the Skaven's case S4 to boot before magic items or venoms on either], but being able to also attack basic troops just further made clear what their function was. Mind games. Did they take an Assassin? Can you be sure? Does that look like 2000 points of stuff in front of you? Would they have put it in with their anvil as a Fuck You surprise to anyone trying to break the flank, or did they hide it with their General inside the Stormvermin to make a deathstar?
tl;dr Before 8E there were a number of uses for low-stat mediocre equipment units between just existing and also special rules that often came with them or their army.
Axslashel
I am a pessimist not a realist.
- Location
- Land of the Midnight Sun
But have considered that two 10 models wide 50 model units slamming into each and rolling 30 dies each is very fun.
I am a bit surprised at the lack of extra units to the two starting factions. And the ones that exist are somehow still not new molds. It is fine for people who still have old stuff but how else do I get some questing knights or a trebuchet?
- Location
- Drachyench on Discord
I'm a tad split as on one hand I understand a lot of work has been put into this as-is and they're basically launching an entire game system with what'll be nine major factions and a bunch of [humorous for, again, basically being a new game] legacy / supplementary support for almost as many more. Several of the moulds have also clearly been improved upon, with others still being restored outright or fresh creations.But have considered that two 10 models wide 50 model units slamming into each and rolling 30 dies each is very fun.
I am a bit surprised at the lack of extra units to the two starting factions. And the ones that exist are somehow still not new molds. It is fine for people who still have old stuff but how else do I get some questing knights or a trebuchet?
But on the other as you say it's surprising and perhaps even a little alarming how much is just breaking back out old moulds. There is some overlap between teams but not that much and launching the game with barely two 'complete' lines and a third [Orcs & Goblins] soon to follow is potentially distressing.
WH:tOW is looking strongly like it'll remain firmly in the 'supplementary game system / cash flow' lane as opposed to another mainline like AoS or WH40K. Which isn't necessarily the worst place to be, but a shame for those who were expecting it to get that level of detail / love.
- Location
- Drachyench on Discord
Double-post but they have announced the first wave of Made To Order.
Soulboundplayer
Brutal Kunnin' Smasha Cunning Brutes
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Legacy Faction Rules just dropped
Nemesis_Scar
Опомнись
- Location
- The Earthly City, not the one on a hill
- Pronouns
- She/They
Oh, that Astragoth, what a kidder.
I mean this does absolutely fuck dwarves who struggle to get charges in and are not, actually, survivable enough to eat elite units stabbing them.
This is a bad deal for a lot of basic infantry in a way I don't love.
Except elves who just get to go first anyways, git fucked.
Old Spice Guy
The Man Your Man Could Smell Like
- Location
- Riding a horse, backwards
No? Great Weapons dwarves have a high leadership, heavy armor and T4 as standard. They will bump back and get a chance to strike and more to the point they're not meant to fight elite units. Basic infantry are so much less breakable now its great.
That's what you have Ironbreakers for.