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Warhammer Fantasy: Norsca United! (CK2)

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Qeqre said:
And why would say, a Talabeclander peasant trust us any less than a Reiklander? Nationalism isn't a thing yet. They'd both be strangers as far as they're concerned.
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The point I was making before wasn't about where our merchants were from. Wherever they come from, they will still be merchants and still be objects of relative suspicion.

Though, as I understand it, Norscans have something of a reputation in this setting.

Just because nationalism isn't a thing yet doesn't mean certain groups don't have a reputation with other groups.

Qeqre said:
Considering your post started by quoting me. Yes.
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I could have formatted it better to show who was being addressed then.

Qeqre said:
Which is why having our merchants peddle (cheap) metalcraft is going to win us a lot of popularity.

This being Warhammer means that travel is fairly hard without armed escort.
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If we had cheap transportation, sure. But we don't. Transportation at this level of technology is hideously expensive. As I remember (possibly wrongly), transporting goods overland in 17th Century France cost so much that the price of the goods doubled for every 20 miles traveled.

Now obviously sea travel is much cheaper, but even so, it was vastly more expensive than any modern transportation method since ships needed skilled crews, good wood, cordage, caulk and canvas. i.e. a ship is a big fixed cost.

I could see maybe getting the sort of naval sophistication where Heimgard trade ships could compete effectively with local tradesmen in metal goods on the coasts of the Old World, but beyond that? I really can't see that happening before some sort of canal revolution happens.

Qeqre said:
Logic for the most part, sorry.
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Logic can be misleading when fed by poor information.

Qeqre said:
Now you're talking about the economy as a whole rather than individual profit margins. Where the abolition of slavery means relatively more people will take jobs that benefit production and more people have personal wealth to fuel demand with.
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OK, so we are talking past each other to a certain extent.

Yes, certainly slavery does allow some few rich people to be very rich relative to their peers. That means there is a strong "perverse incentive" for slavery.

And it is for that very reason that I don't see Heimgard as being able to stop slavery outside her own boarders. So we are in agreement there.

Qeqre said:
Those subsidies though. Was there ever an analysis done on the recipient's contribution to their beneficiary's tax income vs the costs of the subsidies?
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Who are the "recipient" and the "beneficiary" in this case?

Certainly there have been analyses done on the costs to the wider population paying for the "subsidy" and the costs and benefits received by those who benefited from the "subsidy". (I put "subsidy" in quotes to make clear that I don't mean a subsidy in the narrow sense, but rather in the wider sense of any transfer of wealth from one group to another group by government action.)

fasquardon
 
fasquardon said:
The point I was making before wasn't about where our merchants were from. Wherever they come from, they will still be merchants and still be objects of relative suspicion.

Though, as I understand it, Norscans have something of a reputation in this setting.

Just because nationalism isn't a thing yet doesn't mean certain groups don't have a reputation with other groups.
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And my point isn't that they'd be inherently trusted because they are merchants. My point was that having people speak well of Heimgard in the Empire would provide a counterweight to other people speaking ill of our nation and any lingering sentiments.

The average commoner isn't very well informed about events more than a day's travel from home(and even that far is going to be iffy). Norscans have a reputation. That reputation is going to stay with us unless we work to change it.

fasquardon said:
If we had cheap transportation, sure. But we don't. Transportation at this level of technology is hideously expensive. As I remember (possibly wrongly), transporting goods overland in 17th Century France cost so much that the price of the goods doubled for every 20 miles traveled.

Now obviously sea travel is much cheaper, but even so, it was vastly more expensive than any modern transportation method since ships needed skilled crews, good wood, cordage, caulk and canvas. i.e. a ship is a big fixed cost.

I could see maybe getting the sort of naval sophistication where Heimgard trade ships could compete effectively with local tradesmen in metal goods on the coasts of the Old World, but beyond that? I really can't see that happening before some sort of canal revolution happens.
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Fair enough.

Though how much is the doubling of costs influenced by the need to pay tolls for many of the roads and bridges and the cost of food?

Though a canal revolution might not be necessary(though the Empire does have a single canal). the Empire has a shitton of rivers. A fairly large portion of the Empire should be accessible by boat.

fasquardon said:
Who are the "recipient" and the "beneficiary" in this case?

Certainly there have been analyses done on the costs to the wider population paying for the "subsidy" and the costs and benefits received by those who benefited from the "subsidy". (I put "subsidy" in quotes to make clear that I don't mean a subsidy in the narrow sense, but rather in the wider sense of any transfer of wealth from one group to another group by government action.)
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Basically:
How much does it cost the state to keep slavery legal?*
Which provides more tax income: X labourers working for 1 farmer or 1 slave owner with an equal amount of slaves?
How does it impact the costs of collecting taxes?*

*And how much do natural borders and general difficulty of travel influence these costs?
**On one hand, different legal statuses might complicate the collection system, on the other, the wealth is more centralized, allowing for easier collection. Such an analysis would probably have to account for whether or not the local tax system levies regressive, proportional or progressive taxes though.
 
Qeqre said:
Which provides more tax income: X labourers working for 1 farmer or 1 slave owner with an equal amount of slaves?
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Definitely the X labourers working for 1 farmer.

Qeqre said:
How does it impact the costs of collecting taxes?*
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Qeqre said:
**On one hand, different legal statuses might complicate the collection system, on the other, the wealth is more centralized, allowing for easier collection. Such an analysis would probably have to account for whether or not the local tax system levies regressive, proportional or progressive taxes though.
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Wealth being more centralized makes taxes harder to collect since the people with the wealth invariably suborn the government or already were the government, meaning they can change the rules to ensure their wealth isn't taxed OR they are so powerful relative to the government that the tax system cannot force them to pay taxes.

One of the cyclical problems of the late Roman Empire (even during the Byzantine era, when slavery had declined) was that rich landowners would rise to sufficient power to stop the Emperor from taxing them or raising troops from their area, forcing the Emperor to dispropriate the rich somehow (or have them dispropriated for him by some disaster), divide the land among the peasants to re-establish the agricultural "middle class", some among whom would rise in wealth or fall into debt to wealthy people, starting the rise of a class of rich landowners again...

What is amazing is that the Roman Empire was able to keep breaking its rich for so long (well, usually a barbarian invasion did the breaking and the Romans then broke the barbarians) - Hungary and Poland didn't manage to break their rich magnates at all, and both countries were extinguished as a result.

fasquardon
 
Qeqre said:
And my point isn't that they'd be inherently trusted because they are merchants. My point was that having people speak well of Heimgard in the Empire would provide a counterweight to other people speaking ill of our nation and any lingering sentiments.

The average commoner isn't very well informed about events more than a day's travel from home(and even that far is going to be iffy). Norscans have a reputation. That reputation is going to stay with us unless we work to change it.
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That is true, it sounds like it would be hard to turn around.
there are gonna be plenty of (injured?) war vets around villages who fought against them before being discharged back to the village from which they were originally recruited from. Legless pete is telling everyone who would listen his war stories about the horrid savages of the north...
This is hard thing to overturn.

that being said, how much do the dirt farmers even matter? Its not like they are going to be very well informed about the nature of the relationship between nations. Yea they know the norsicans are bloodthirsty maraudors, and they aren't invading under the current ruler so all is well. Such fussing with national politics is probably more of a middle class thing
 
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mrttao said:
That is true, it sounds like it would be hard to turn around.
there are gonna be plenty of (injured?) war vets around villages who fought against them before being discharged back to the village from which they were originally recruited from. Legless pete is telling everyone who would listen his war stories about the horrid savages of the north...
This is hard thing to overturn.

that being said, how much do the dirt farmers even matter? Its not like they are going to be very well informed about the nature of the relationship between nations. Yea they know the norsicans are bloodthirsty maraudors, and they aren't invading under the current ruler so all is well. Such fussing with national politics is probably more of a middle class thing
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Until a priest wanders by to whip up a frenzied mob.

Or when the Emperor decrees that a large portion of the food stores are to be sent North, to those selfsame Norscans.

Or when an army of Norscans lands on their shores and requests further passage to help against an enemy coming from the south.

You know, things that influence the farmer's own life. Or that of their families.
 
Qeqre said:
Until a priest wanders by to whip up a frenzied mob.
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A village mob is not really going to be any use since the only thing for them to burn within range is their own homes, and will quickly get put down as the obvious rebellion that it is if they march on another town (I doubt he has permission from the higher ups in the church)
Furthermore he is whipping them into a mob about stuff they didn't even know about when he walked into town; so the truth of the matter is irrelevant, he could be lying, that he is telling the truth doesn't matter, he had enough charisma to sell a story to the farmers which they bought and formed a mob under him.
Qeqre said:
Or when the Emperor decrees that a large portion of the food stores are to be sent North, to those selfsame Norscans.
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All they know is that the food is being collected by the empire "for the good of the empire". I doubt the guy collecting the food knows what it is for.
Qeqre said:
Or when an army of Norscans lands on their shores and requests further passage to help against an enemy coming from the south.
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Very few farmers will actually see them since the army is not going to go through every village in the empire. and those that do are not going to pick a fight with said army.
Also, that is a perfect example where we actually effectively disprove said knowledge of theirs. By having the army NOT pillage their villages and instead defend them.
Qeqre said:
You know, things that influence the farmer's own life. Or that of their families.
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Those are reasons why they would be curious about it, its not a reason why anyone would care to tell them or why they would know.

They don't have the means to find out (no mass media, illiterate, medieval)
They don't have the time to look it up (medieval farmer)
Nobody has any desire to tell them those things (why would you inform the peasants?)
They can't do anything about it anyways
 
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mrttao said:
A village mob is not really going to be any use since the only thing for them to burn within range is their own homes, and will quickly get put down as the obvious rebellion that it is if they march on another town (I doubt he has permission from the higher ups in the church)
Furthermore he is whipping them into a mob about stuff they didn't even know about when he walked into town; so the truth of the matter is irrelevant, he could be lying, that he is telling the truth doesn't matter, he had enough charisma to sell a story to the farmers which they bought and formed a mob under him.
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DC for getting a mob of flagellants would most likely be affected by our reputation. If they hate us anyway? Easy to whip up a mob and start heading North(good thing there's an ocean between us).

Also, approval would depend on our relations with the Arch-Ulric/Grand Theogonist.

mrttao said:
All they know is that the food is being collected by the empire "for the good of the empire". I doubt the guy collecting the food knows what it is for.
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Nah, but see, honest hairless Hans' half-sister(who is also his aunt)'s cousin happens to be married to a fisherman see? And he heard(from other fishermen who know some captains of larger vessels - the type they use to transport grain) that it was headed to Norsca of all places.

There are no good systems in place to spread information, corollary, there are no good systems in place to spread propaganda and/or suppress information.

mrttao said:
Very few farmers will actually see them since the army is not going to go through every village in the empire. and those that do are not going to pick a fight with said army.
Also, that is a perfect example where we actually effectively disprove said knowledge of theirs. By having the army NOT pillage their villages and instead defend them.
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And said army is going to require food.

Will they hunt for it? Will they trade with the peasants? Will the peasants try to gouge prices if they're dealing with 'that kind'?

mrttao said:
They don't have the means to find out (no mass media, illiterate, medieval)
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No reliable means. That's not the same as no means. See the example of honest hairless Hans.

mrttao said:
They don't have the time to look it up (medieval farmer)
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Depends on the type of serf(if any), the local rights and duties of commoners, the wealth of the peasant in question(in terms of land/animals to maintain) and the season.

mrttao said:
Nobody has any desire to tell them those things (why would you inform the peasants?)
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Again, honest hairless Hans example.

mrttao said:
They can't do anything about it anyways
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Gouge prices, hide the pigs and otherwise be a general pain in the ass for the supply train by being gleefully unhelpful.

For all that the peasant is often looked at with disdain and taken for granted, they are still one of the most vital components to keeping a large group of people alive.
 
You know, if we want to win hearts and minds in the Empire, something worth considering would be to arrange for Olrican crusaders (you know, followers of Olric who is probably the local aspect of Ulric) and holy men to work in the Empire. The cult of Ulric is already well established in the Empire, followers generally seen as trustworthy and Ingemar's views on Olrican theology has a more practical bent that may be popular with certain groups in the Empire.

So roving bands of do-gooders who speak well of Heimgard and its mighty gods, punch trouble in the face for people and maybe carry along a small set of trade goods so they can barter with people as they travel to support themselves.

fasquardon
 
fasquardon said:
You know, if we want to win hearts and minds in the Empire, something worth considering would be to arrange for Olrican crusaders (you know, followers of Olric who is probably the local aspect of Ulric) and holy men to work in the Empire. The cult of Ulric is already well established in the Empire, followers generally seen as trustworthy and Ingemar's views on Olrican theology has a more practical bent that may be popular with certain groups in the Empire.

So roving bands of do-gooders who speak well of Heimgard and its mighty gods, punch trouble in the face for people and maybe carry along a small set of trade goods so they can barter with people as they travel to support themselves.

fasquardon
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brilliant, absolutely brilliant. I will vote for it
 
Merry Christmas, ye fellows who inhabit the same land of snow and ice roughly parallel to another land in a north that isn't you know what, I'm tired of that already. We're northern, Santa's North Pole, St. Nicholas REALLY isn't, Merry Christmas.
 
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QM Fail
  • Threadmarks
    • So, as you've all probably realized, I haven't updated the thread in a while. There were the holidays, and I switched jobs, and some other stuff, but the short version is that I've gotten burned out on this quest. That's my fault. I let things get more and more complicated until, frankly, I got tired of all the work it took to keep things running. Again, that's my mistake. You've all been great players, and I've had a lot of fun doing this quest with you.

    For that reason, I'd like to give you all some closure. We're fairly close to a point where I think it would make sense to end the quest. There's no way you'll fix everything in the Warhammer world forever, but you'll have a chance to leave Heimgard with a strong foundation going forward.

    Unfortunately, I've taken a few cracks at writing the next turn, and, well, I can't seem to get it done. There are so many options and little piece parts that I get mired down in the details. However, I'm thinking that things might be easier for me if I simplify the mechanics a bit. For example, instead of all the relatively detailed options in previous turns there might be something like this:

    Military: You have 5 'military units' to spend on these options. You may repeat options unless otherwise noted.

    [] Guard Heimgard against Chaos

    [] Fortify Eastern Kislev (In case conflict in the Dark Lands spills over the Worlds' edge mountains)

    [] Fight the Pleasure Cult in Naggaroth

    [] Aid the Golden King in Khemri

    The above is just a rough example of how military actions would work. There would be similar votes for other types of actions. Hopefully, this mock-up gets across the idea. There will be a lot less up-front information for the players, and, honestly, it will be a lot more rules light. That's because hashing out detailed mechanics is the least enjoyable part of running a quest for me. I just have more fun when I wing it.

    However, this is a major change in the quest, and I want to put it up to a vote.

    There are three options.

    [] Continue with the current format – I'll try to work up the mojo to get this quest to a real stopping point, but, realistically, it's not that likely.

    [] Go rules light – I'd do something like the above: just something simple until the quest reaches a good ending.

    [] End it now – If you all would like, I can just end the quest now. If you're interested, we could do a little Q&A, and I could post plans I had for the ending.

    Just to be clear, no matter the results, you are near the end of the quest. (I might potentially do a sequel at some point, but I make absolutely zero promises.)

    No matter what you all decide, I'd like to thank everyone who read, liked, or voted in my quest. Together we made a quest that I think is pretty cool, and I had a lot of fun doing it. Additionally, I'd like to give an extra big thank you to everyone who wrote omakes. It was really cool to read your take on my quest.
     
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    • Oh,Thank you for run this quest.

    Hmm,I think guard Heimgard against chaos is enough to made some different in the world,Maybe another policy as revive Jotun civilization.
     
    [X] Go rules light – I'd do something like the above: just something simple until the quest reaches a good ending.

    Seems the best way.
     
    [X] End it now – If you all would like, I can just end the quest now. If you're interested, we could do a little Q&A, and I could post plans I had for the ending.

    I have no problem ending the quest now since it's no fun forcing you to continue something that has burned you out.

    @ancusohm you have any plans what you are doing after this quest?
     
    [x] Go rules light – I'd do something like the above: just something simple until the quest reaches a good ending.
     
    [X] Go rules light – I'd do something like the above: just something simple until the quest reaches a good ending.

    It was fun while it lasted. I'd like to at least experience the final rise of Heimgard and our implementation of the godly bits.
     
    [X] End it now – If you all would like, I can just end the quest now. If you're interested, we could do a little Q&A, and I could post plans I had for the ending.
     
    [X] End it now – If you all would like, I can just end the quest now. If you're interested, we could do a little Q&A, and I could post plans I had for the ending.

    Personally, I think I'd prefer some sort of long future summary ending post. I just don't think rules light fits with a CK2 empire builder system. In fact, it seems rather oxymoronic by definition.
     
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