The Ymaryn: Succession

[Redium]

What does this have to do with the half-exiles? Are many of them former nomads? The quote you're responding to is responding to their treatment as impure, getting beaten for trying to bake bread in the communal oven, things like that.

Click to shrink...

No, that was just my utter fail at reading comprehension. The Half-Exiles and nomads have nothing to do with each other.

The underlying reason that Half-Exiles are hated so much is most proximally because of Purity, but the issue also has roots in Joyous Symphony and Greater Justice. Half-Exiles are ultimately criminals sentenced to penal labour. Historically, that is not a popular group and Ymaryn culture is not particularly kind to those that break social norms. This type of hatred and violence directed at historically unpopular outgroups is pretty common. The Cagots occupied a similar place in pre-modern France; they're no religiously or ethnically different from their neighbours, but rumours of spiritual impurity dogs them across generations, leading to immense social ostracism. The difference between Cagots and Half-Exiles is that the latter do not face the legal discrimination that was used against the Cagots.

 

[Sivantic]

Would they not be more like the Untouchables or Burakumin? They are restricted to "Unclean" professions, poorly treated and almost never managing to change their caste.

 

[Ghostdevil]

Would they not be more like the Untouchables or Burakumin? They are restricted to "Unclean" professions, poorly treated and almost never managing to change their caste.

Click to shrink...

Considering how stratified the Ymaryn is, i am sure they have an almost caste like social classes.

 

[Karugus]

Considering how stratified the Ymaryn is, i am sure they have an almost caste like social classes.

Click to shrink...

I'd say its a weird case of rather than a strict hierarchal caste system, there's a lot of specialization in more specific administrative roles. The statement

To most, the distinction between Patrician, Guild Master, and Gentry was immensely arbitrary, and there was a grain of truth there.

Click to shrink...

implies that to the common peasant/urbanite there isn't a huge distinction between one of our three major ruling classes.

As an immensely an incredibly urban civilization- especially one with a fixation on agrarianism and land management, there's a lot of push and pull between the cities and the rural lands. The Guild Masters probably have a huge presence in almost every city even if patricians are technically managing it, likewise the Gentry probably have an immense presence as local headmen and whatnot even if a patrician is seeing that all the grain is levied and paid for. And as we saw, a lot of the preeminent members of these other classes weren't willing to make the transition to patrician because they'd lose status in the process. I can't say I'm super familiar with caste systems in general but I don't think that maps very well to them. Even a lot of merchants in feudal Europe would have jumped at the chance to become a member of the aristocracy- especially if they're powerful and influential already, that doesn't seem to be remotely what we're seeing here.

Likewise, the avoidance of most private land ownership probably complicates that.

 

[Fireiy]

[X] Send priests and patricians to the region to look for a cure
[X] Reach out to Inek to solicit Carrion Eater aid

Given it's slow spread and slow progression of symptoms I don't think slamming the quarantine button is needed. Unfortunately we don't have enough information on what's transmitting it to take either of the population relocation options useful and the sanitation option might be ineffective for the same reason. Even if it fails this will likely at least give us more information on what would work better.

 

[Sivantic]

We do need to come to a decision on this though, it has been a couple days and only three votes so far.

 

[10ebbor10]

[X] Send priests and patricians to the region to look for a cure
[X] Reach out to Inek to solicit Carrion Eater aid

I'm willing to try for a little gamble. Hopefully this doesn't blow up in our face.

 

[Ghostdevil]

implies that to the common peasant/urbanite there isn't a huge distinction between one of our three major ruling classes.

Click to shrink...

That is true,

Anyways, based on how our society seems to work, theres a lot of de facto shit going on even if de jure there is not laws for it like even more so than most societies considering how toxic and unhealthy ours is.

 

[Aranfan]

That is true,

Anyways, based on how our society seems to work, theres a lot of de facto shit going on even if de jure there is not laws for it like even more so than most societies considering how toxic and unhealthy ours is.

Click to shrink...

Consider that our society is extremely satisfied, yet the legal code is rooted in a very egalitarian Copper Age code.

Our laws are probably way more egalitarian on paper than our society is in practice.

 

[ALanos]

[X] Send priests and patricians to the region to look for a cure
[X] Reach out to Inek to solicit Carrion Eater aid

 

[DarkwarriorJ]

[X] Send priests and patricians to the region to look for a cure
[X] Reach out to Inek to solicit Carrion Eater aid

 

[Karugus]

That is true,

Anyways, based on how our society seems to work, theres a lot of de facto shit going on even if de jure there is not laws for it like even more so than most societies considering how toxic and unhealthy ours is.

Click to shrink...

Keep in mind the context of the age, the Ymaryn Empire would be surprisingly enlightened up to maybe the early Renaissance. Instead it's predating what in our timeline would be Hammurabi's code of 'an eye for an eye' and the Assyrians conducting diplomacy in palaces filled with scenes of them staking, flaying, and massacring entire cities. In the context in which the YE exists, they're definitely a far more humane society than we had 1300 BCE.

 

[sunrise]

[X] Isolate the entire afflicted region, no one moves in or out.
[X] Send priests and patricians to the region to look for a cure

 

[Ghostdevil]

Keep in mind the context of the age, the Ymaryn Empire would be surprisingly enlightened up to maybe the early Renaissance. Instead it's predating what in our timeline would be Hammurabi's code of 'an eye for an eye' and the Assyrians conducting diplomacy in palaces filled with scenes of them staking, flaying, and massacring entire cities. In the context in which the YE exists, they're definitely a far more humane society than we had 1300 BCE.

Click to shrink...

I don't actually think thats true, the unfair and cruelties of our empire is usually not presented to us that clearly or explicitly, or do you not remember the "surprise" when AN did a close up of Ymaryn society that freaked a bunch of people out.

 

[notbirdofprey]

Got a link to that post?

 

[Karugus]

I don't actually think thats true, the unfair and cruelties of our empire is usually not presented to us that clearly or explicitly, or do you not remember the "surprise" when AN did a close up of Ymaryn society that freaked a bunch of people out.

Click to shrink...

I think this ignores just how bad ancient societies can be towards their own people. Yeah, there's rampant exploitation at a lot of levels, but there's still immense effort to prevent starvation, religious tolerance, some attempts to keep our peasants literate.

Let me put forward an example, at one point IIRC one of the pharaoh's pleasure barges got caught adrift on the Nile. In order for the crew to stay alive they had to drink some of the Royal wine selection. They were put to death for their temerity. Do you think a patrician could or would put to death Ymaryn workers in the same situation?

I'm not going to argue we have a bill of rights, but the Ymaryn at least pay lip service to the idea of certain inalienable rights; to avoid hunger and slavery mostly. Half-exiling is horrible, but it's no Athenian silver mine. We don't crucify 'escaped half exiles'. We don't put to death every half exile who served a noble for the crime of a half exile killing that noble. Satire against the throne is a big facet of Ymaryn culture thanks to our king during the war against Trelli, name any empire before the last ~500 years that would allow open discontent with legal protection.

It's important that even in that horrible example AN gave us? That woman wasn't a half-exile, because she hadn't done anything wrong. The tools to further exploit her were there, in any other earlier Bronze Age society she probably would have been an outright sex slave. Something that bears a closer resemblance to a mistreated illegal immigrant than a piece of property is still a sad but noteworthy step up. The fact it's wrong doesn't change the scale, scope, or context of the wrongness. That was the context of near-Victorian era exploitation. Not Andromache having her child dashed on the walls of Troy and being carted off as a sex save to the victorious Achaeans.

 

[Ghostdevil]

I think this ignores just how bad ancient societies can be towards their own people. Yeah, there's rampant exploitation at a lot of levels, but there's still immense effort to prevent starvation, religious tolerance, some attempts to keep our peasants literate.

Click to shrink...

Like i said, most of our society is vague as hell, you can only say were not horrible because we don't actually know what really goes on. Like the fact is, in this quest we know that our people are driven to suicide and in some cases done so intentionally, and this is considered a good. But thats the extent of what we really know goes on, in all likelyhood its far worse and even more so for different classes.

outright sex slave

Click to shrink...

Pretty sure she was a de facto sex slave, she sold her body and was taken advantage of constantly. She just wasn't explicit property.

Edit:

~500 years that would allow open discontent with legal protection.

Click to shrink...

Honestly thats probably one of the biggest, "Your civ is speshul and great" examples we have.

 

[Aranfan]

I think this ignores just how bad ancient societies can be towards their own people. Yeah, there's rampant exploitation at a lot of levels, but there's still immense effort to prevent starvation, religious tolerance, some attempts to keep our peasants literate.

Let me put forward an example, at one point IIRC one of the pharaoh's pleasure barges got caught adrift on the Nile. In order for the crew to stay alive they had to drink some of the Royal wine selection. They were put to death for their temerity. Do you think a patrician could or would put to death Ymaryn workers in the same situation?

I'm not going to argue we have a bill of rights, but the Ymaryn at least pay lip service to the idea of certain inalienable rights; to avoid hunger and slavery mostly. Half-exiling is horrible, but it's no Athenian silver mine. We don't crucify 'escaped half exiles'. We don't put to death every half exile who served a noble for the crime of a half exile killing that noble. Satire against the throne is a big facet of Ymaryn culture thanks to our king during the war against Trelli, name any empire before the last ~500 years that would allow open discontent with legal protection.

It's important that even in that horrible example AN gave us? That woman wasn't a half-exile, because she hadn't done anything wrong. The tools to further exploit her were there, in any other earlier Bronze Age society she probably would have been an outright sex slave. Something that bears a closer resemblance to a mistreated illegal immigrant than a piece of property is still a sad but noteworthy step up. The fact it's wrong doesn't change the scale, scope, or context of the wrongness. That was the context of near-Victorian era exploitation. Not Andromache having her child dashed on the walls of Troy and being carted off as a sex save to the victorious Achaeans.

Click to shrink...

Note: That was before we upgraded our stratification trait to Arete. We probably only got worse when that happened, and then DGE probably turned us into a caste society.

 

[Ghostdevil]

Note: That was before we upgraded our stratification trait to Arete. We probably only got worse when that happened, and then DGE probably turned us into a caste society.

Click to shrink...

Plus the Half Exiles are probably 1000x worse than even that lady back then. Half Exiles by their very nature draw ire and hatred, and this is a permanent underclass that everyone pretends is temporary and is TOTALLY different from slavery, promise.

 

[lioli]

Using resources embezzled from the Crown, Haul has been working on Perfecting Telescopes. With official support on a Telescope project, that action now automatically completes.

Click to shrink...

Say, to Haul, this rather looks Ydrys knew about the embezzlement all along, but left him alone until he just needed official support on another telescope project to perfect them, thereby gaining both perfected telescopes as well as contact with Greenshore/Core mine surveys/etc., doesn't it?

The simplest use would be to place them north of Memorial sirol as a March along the Great Plains.

Click to shrink...

One of the grievances of the Thunder Mountains was that the Core wasn't sufficiently protecting them from nomad invasions. We didn't pick the Cavalry Martial advisor that would have been best for this, but maybe we could bite off chunks of the Thunder Mountains if the Spiritbonded Holy Order made a good showing defending them.

These administrators from the priests weren't that.

They were new. Called up by the priests.

Conjured from the aether.

Click to shrink...

And, also, filling a significant fraction of our secular bureaucracy with devout, and indebted-to-the-temples, members of our many, many religious cults. I supported the option before, and I think I still stand by it for the friction on the Ymaryn's social stratification, but this just added a Bureaucratic Crisis to our future Religious Crisis.

(Unlocked Attack-By-Fire Reform)

Click to shrink...

Gunpowder, and cannons? handheld firearms? While not glass -- to make Haul happy -- perhaps this might be useful as a carrot to retain the Core's Guild Masters? And to sell to Dyfan for his Martial Hero military reforms and ambition to tame the steppes?

Some of the more extreme, fringe cults that had arisen in the aftermath of the Great Khan's war had even taken to exalting attacks on Half-Exiles, a way of helping to purify the collective soul of the People.

Click to shrink...

If we still had an appreciable army for internal peacekeeping, perhaps the Crown could have declared the lynchings as inherently impure, and we could have applied friction to Purity. We have a sorta religious advisor in Euryg, but I don't think he has much involvement in the broader, non-Holy-Order, cult movements? We want him focused outward in the short and medium term, anyways. Maybe we could rely on Aethryn's Intrigue Heroism to let us buy some influence in the religious revival movements, and push them away from this type of thing.

(There's also Prydyer's religious affinity, but we need to have someone investigate him before we can pass judgement on his usefulness on this matter.)

Disgruntled Traders: Dyfan has made significant purchases from international traders, often working on credit and the indomitable bond of the Ymaryn nation. These desperately negotiated loans and gifts have given the country enough breathing room to begin widespread cultivation of foodstuffs as well as cash crop cultivation in honey and poppies. It is clear that the former general hopes to outrun the debts he has taken on by growing the economy of Western Wall, but is such a thing even possible?

Click to shrink...

Wealth, Trade, and cash crop Agriculture, this sounds like a Prydyer project. Perhaps help the Txolla Governor with his project to break the Txolla agricultural consortium, by persuading them to get in on the ground floor of Western Wall's cash crop economy? Tying Western Wall to Txolla and thus the Core?

We could also, if we wanted to roll the dice on the 'Ymaryn loot piñata' crisis, give Dyfan the monies to repay the debts as another Favor.

 

[Fireiy]

Say, to Haul, this rather looks Ydrys knew about the embezzlement all along, but left him alone until he just needed official support on another telescope project to perfect them, thereby gaining both perfected telescopes as well as contact with Greenshore/Core mine surveys/etc., doesn't it?

Click to shrink...

It would if we chose to simply tell him to stop or did nothing about it. With the private censure, it's clear that we disapprove of the embezzlement but that he can come to us openly about what he wishes to do in the future.

 

[Random Member]

Haven't voted yet, so.

[X] Isolate the entire afflicted region, no one moves in or out.
[X] Send additional supplies and work to strengthen local sanitation

 

[Pyre]

Banner says the vote is still open so:
[X] Send priests and patricians to the region to look for a cure
[X] Reach out to Inek to solicit Carrion Eater aid

Regarding the Ymaryn half-exile underclass, certainly it's something to work on. I'll point out though that there are quite a few places that have problems with a similar situation even today (See: Japan's Burakumin, India's Dalit, and, arguably, the Romani off the top of my head) so the fact that our modern sensibilities are offended by the justice system 3k+ years ago is hardly an indictment of the Ymaryn.

Typical punishments multiple kiloyears after the in universe date still include: drawing and quartering, semi-permanent enslavement, hand removal, and torture among others. Not to say any of that is just, but it is absolutely vital to keep in mind that the context is not the modern day. Having religious tolerance is a huge step forward. Having *any* path to advance above your station is a huge step forward. And, yes, having the ability to express dissatisfaction with the ruling class/king without suffering horrific repercussions is a huge step forward.

Remember that the code of Hammurabi (1755–1750 BC FYI) was a massive step forward, having codified laws that were visible and accessible (even if the majority of the population was illiterate) was a huge fucking improvement. That said, they're horrifying to modern sensibilities. Take a look if you're interested

Link to the code: Code of Hammurabi - Wikipedia

If you're still curious here's a link to the code of Ur-Nammu, which is the oldest known surviving legal code: Code of Ur-Nammu - Wikipedia

 

[Fouredged Sword]

Banner says the vote is still open so:
[X] Send priests and patricians to the region to look for a cure
[X] Reach out to Inek to solicit Carrion Eater aid

Regarding the Ymaryn half-exile underclass, certainly it's something to work on. I'll point out though that there are quite a few places that have problems with a similar situation even today (See: Japan's Burakumin, India's Dalit, and, arguably, the Romani off the top of my head) so the fact that our modern sensibilities are offended by the justice system 3k+ years ago is hardly an indictment of the Ymaryn.

Typical punishments multiple kiloyears after the in universe date still include: drawing and quartering, semi-permanent enslavement, hand removal, and torture among others. Not to say any of that is just, but it is absolutely vital to keep in mind that the context is not the modern day. Having religious tolerance is a huge step forward. Having *any* path to advance above your station is a huge step forward. And, yes, having the ability to express dissatisfaction with the ruling class/king without suffering horrific repercussions is a huge step forward.

Remember that the code of Hammurabi (1755–1750 BC FYI) was a massive step forward, having codified laws that were visible and accessible (even if the majority of the population was illiterate) was a huge fucking improvement. That said, they're horrifying to modern sensibilities. Take a look if you're interested

Link to the code: Code of Hammurabi - Wikipedia

If you're still curious here's a link to the code of Ur-Nammu, which is the oldest known surviving legal code: Code of Ur-Nammu - Wikipedia

Click to shrink...

People forget that "An Eye for an Eye" wasn't an encouragement to be violent upon those who have wronged you. It was "Hey dude, chill out with the excessive punishment. Maybe only hurt him as much as you got hurt."

The fact that it's used today as a statement of excessive retaliation is purely a signal that we have moved beyond it to even more forgiving rule of law.

And to vote - Let's get more information and establish contact with a new ruler.
[X] Send priests and patricians to the region to look for a cure
[X] Reach out to Inek to solicit Carrion Eater aid

 

[Fouredged Sword]

So... I have been thinking about the guilds and the market crash problem, and I have come up with an alternative solution to trying to sabotage the guys trying to benefit from a market crash.

We can try using diplomacy and intrigue internally instead.

I see two paths forward other than attempting to wreck the economy of a province.

The first one is that we go to the guilds and explain the situation to them. It's that simple. They want to survive as much as we want them to continue to be a benefit. We could bring them in NOW rather than later and start them hoarding capital. The idea would be to brace the guilds for a market crash so that when things crash they don't get knocked down, just around a bit. Pair this with a promise from the crown that we WILL fund them during the crash to keep them running, and we have an interesting hook on them. I think we can maintain the power of the guilds and move them from only somewhat loyal to absolutely loyal.

The second option is a more intrigue focused path. We don't tell the guilds. We let the crash happen. We let the guilds in the core take a severe hit.... But we go to our wife and our glassblower adviser who wants to break the guilds to allow innovation and tell them to start gathering allies, people within the guild structure and without who want to innovate. We support these specific people and help them to horde the capital they will need to weather the market crash. We help them position their enemies into overextended positions that will collapse when the market crashes. Then we let the crash happen. The guilds take a major hit, but the core of innovators we have supported covertly rise like rockets while their opposition falls. They become the new leadership of the guilds or at least majorly powerful figures in the guilds. The guild's power takes a hit, but we get something out the other end that is loyal to us and importantly actively seeking to innovate because that's how they survive when another province has eaten their traditional market share.