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The Ymaryn: Succession

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Ghostdevil said:
We've had elite traits for a very long time, so i am unsure what your talking about.
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We had them for a very long time, and we also had explanation of what those traits did. And we know from that explanation that they were not all that important. Persistently present, sure.
Essential to keeping the country together, not particularly.
 
10ebbor10 said:
We had them for a very long time, and we also had explanation of what those traits did. And we know from that explanation that they were not all that important. Persistently present, sure.
Essential to keeping the country together, not particularly.
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That was only from a mechanics point of view, and even then they were a Win harder trait. Narratively is where they pretty much dominate the rest since the elites and ruling class were basically the country.
 
Karugus said:
No. The Great Khan's the reason we fucking collapsed. Unless you are arguing everyone from the Khwarezmid empire, the Mamelukes, the Hungarians, the Tatars, the Polish, the Russian principalities, the Southern Spng, the Northern Jin, or basically anyone the Mongolians murder hobo'd their way had DGE.

We threw hands with the man who threw the most hands the world had ever seen. We fought what was probably the greatest mass murderer the world has seen or probably will see until we get our Napoleon equivalent. This is absurd victim blaming that ignores the fact Mongolian diplomacy around this time period doesn't so much have a word for peace as it does submission. It ignores and trivializes the deaths of tens of millions in OTL and here because clearly this is a consequence of one feature of our culture you personally dislike.

This is victim blaming tantamount to saying people's subjected to imperialism are at blame for the loss of life because they had cultural values and a sense of national worth to resist. It's horrifying and self-invalidating.
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If we hadn't ticked off the Great Khan then he wouldn't have done a surprise attack and considering how well we did we would have actually managed a win instead of a collapse. It was the vote weighting from the DGE arrogance that prevented us from sending the usual bribes and being prepared when he escalated from light raiding to "teach us a lesson".

The Great Khan himself was assuredly one of history's greatest monsters, but if it hadn't been him it would have been some other gunpowder using state we would have been unprepared for.

Seriously, AN is on record saying the absurd peacocking is one of the roots of the Collapse.

Karugus said:
Man it must be interesting ignoring how relevant a ruling class and bureaucracy is to the stability of its corresponding state. The roman republic for instance, had some fantastic generals and statesman because the state and culture gave them room to excel in service to the state and for a while cultural mores kept them from turning their skills and power against the state. Until those mores collapsed and then it took all of two generations for multiple civil wars for the republic to collapse into the empire.

Or how with the fall of Rome, the only educated class to be drawn on as a bureaucracy was the Roman church, and that forced it to fulfill a plethora of state roles that increased its corruption and limited the complexity of any state depending on it. How that scenario only collapses with the protestant reformation and tens of millions dying in religious wars that displace the church from their traditional roles and totally *unrelatedly* we see the emergence of more modern nation states and the rise of states training their own bureaucracy and administration. Or the Chinese exam systems designed to guarantee a state as massive as China had a coherent and culturally homogenous ruling class and bureaucracy.

But we can ignore that, because its not class conscious enough. Clearly the utility of a well educated, culturally indoctrinated ruling class to look to the extreme long view benefits wasn't an important factor in Ymaryn success. Why we voters, with our modern education and values that encouraged us to pursue long term benefits were! This is a ridiculous argument on every grounds- one that at best presupposes the irrelevance of the educated, philosophical elite ruling class because of a virtual educated, philosophical elite ruling class essentially playing a videogame.
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The state culture of the roman republic glorified the military to such an insane degree that civil wars and generals taking over was inevitable and it was also the reason behind the Crises of the Third and Fourth Century. The Republic fell because the plebeians were so mistreated that they had no stake in society. Optimates vs Populares was always going to break out into a civil war at some point, and if not then there would have been massive rebellions from below that would have ripped rome apart.

As for China, those same Exams are what blinded them so badly that the rest of the world passed them by. The Exams made the ruling so homogenous that they were completely blind to everything not going their way. Ming and Qing China had this issue.
 
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Stone Age Tax Reform!

Edit:
Parzival95 said:
Random Member, you should make a plan. I can't decide myself, but I know you can always be trusted to guide the desperate masses into the future!

Lead us Random Member! Become vanguard and show us the way!
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*sigh*
Fine, I'll do it myself.

[X] Plan Get More Info And Rebuild
-[x] Tell him to stop
-[x] Grant your blessing.
-[x] Ydrys: Continue to respond to the Patrician Crisis
--[x] Condense and accelerate the Academies' curriculum (Authority)
-[x] Ydrys: Repairing Salterns (Influence)
-[x] Rhys: Investigate rumours of the Khan's generals.
-[x] Haul: Try to negotiate with Gylyes for access to mercury
-[x] Prydyer: Evaluating foreign markets
-[x] Inato: Maintain this councilor.
-[x] Aderyn: Rebuild Neighbourhood Watches (Influence)
-[x] Euryg: Look into Mass Levy demobilization
 
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Well now I feel bad, but I've come around to the idea that condensing the education does more harm then good long term, so I've settled for poaching.

As for Ydrys's dreams of education reforms... I think it's doomed for the moment. There's constant crises and we're basically doing triage, so maybe later. But I don't think there's any real solution available to him without fundamentally changing the nature of Ymaryn. Once the situation is settled, the careers people are competing for will go back to not existing.
 
Parzival95 said:
Well now I feel bad, but I've come around to the idea that condensing the education does more harm then good long term, so I've settled for poaching.

As for Ydrys's dreams of education reforms... I think it's doomed for the moment. There's constant crises and we're basically doing triage, so maybe later. But I don't think there's any real solution available to him without fundamentally changing the nature of Ymaryn. Once the situation is settled, the careers people are competing for will go back to not existing.
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Die but Do It needs to go if we want to get rid of Karoshi.
 
Since vote is officially open and no one has a valid plan yet(Ydrys has only one action you goons :p)

Might as well post a plan with everything I want
[X] Plan Splinter Focused
-[X] Tell him to stop
-[X] Ydrys: Continue to respond to the Patrician Crisis
--[X] Advertise among the other Splinter States and poach from them - Authority
[X] Rhys: Create a wide web of contacts across the Ymaryn sphere
-[X] Haul: Contact Thunder Mountain
-[X] Prydyer: Evaluating foreign markets
-[X] Pryder: Focused Contacts: Txolla
-[X] Inato: Maintain this councilor.
-[X] Aderyn: Focused Contacts: Hyatha
-[X] Euryg: Personally direct the fighting against the Highlanders
-[X] Promise to carve out a new headquarters in suitable lands within 5 years.

My focus here is to work on unifying Ymaryn and keeping our Legacy bonus
Redium said:
One of the unique mechanics of The Dissolution is that Legitimacy has been temporarily suspended and replaced by Legacy. Legacy is an important stat and you want to have the highest compared to all other Splinter States. The one with the highest Legacy gets bonuses as a result; you have it right now, but that can easily change. Since you're the Core, you don't really know what highest Legacy gives you until you lose it and you suddenly find yourselves in trouble.
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Currently we have the highest at two and losing it will cause problems. To help prepare for that, I want to find out what is happening with the other splinter groups, get us information that we can act on. Create a web of contacts all around with focus on Hyatha and Txolla. On top of that, keeping the Spiritbonded to ourselves as a symbol of Ymaryn and keep as martial force. Our Martial has been bled white, we should at least try to keep them before they go.
 
Aranfan said:
If we hadn't ticked off the Great Khan then he wouldn't have done a surprise attack and considering how well we did we would have actually managed a win instead of a collapse. It was the vote weighting from the DGE arrogance that prevented us from sending the usual bribes and being prepared when he escalated from light raiding to "teach us a lesson".

The Great Khan himself was assuredly one of history's greatest monsters, but if it hadn't been him it would have been some other gunpowder using state we would have been unprepared for.

Seriously, AN is on record saying the absurd peacocking is one of the roots of the Collapse.



The state culture of the roman republic glorified the military to such an insane degree that civil wars and generals taking over was inevitable and it was also the reason behind the Crises of the Third and Fourth Century. The Republic fell because the plebeians were so mistreated that they had no stake in society. Optimates vs Populares was always going to break out into a civil war at some point, and if not then there would have been massive rebellions from below that would have ripped rome apart.

As for China, those same Exams are what blinded them so badly that the rest of the world passed them by. The Exams made the ruling so homogenous that they were completely blind to everything not going their way. Ming and Qing China had this issue.
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Again, the civil wars began once the armies were in the hand of generals rather than in service to the state (and the old republican armies depended heavily on patrician involvement too). It was only when service to the state became subordinated to the individual that civil war became a possibility. And it still took Marius driving Sulla into a corner that Sulla did the unthinkable and marched on Rome.

Moreover, the Roman stance on Populares vs. Optimates runs into the fact that from the get go, the Optimates legitimized the use of violence to suppress the Populares and avoid concessions causing them to radicalize. Moreover, we don't have humongous private latinfunda driving more and more people into poverty that our patricians have an interest to uphold.

The bureaucracy of China has its flaws. But a lot of that is rooted in rampant corruption caused by misguided attempts to prevent that. The Ming dynasty was emphatically trying to modernize at the time of its downfall, and was for a time I believe the largest owner of guns in the world. The Qing victory merely legitimized the lack of need for reform and ushered in more corruption. You are pointing tosome of the most successful civilizations the world has seen, acknowledging the success and then responding that they fell- as all civilizations do.

I'm not against reform, and forcing our patricians to engage with the outside world more in addition to more alternatives and safety nets than literal suicide. But it's the height of self-deception to pretend DGE hasn't had a hand to play in getting this far. For better or for worse. And I firmly cleave to the idea it's largely been better than worse.
 
Ah, I misread that as Ydrys having two actions and the option to change it to an advisor action. I'll rework my plan slightly then.

[X] Plan Censure and Civil Service
-[X] Private censure
-[X] Promise to carve out a new headquarters in suitable lands within 5 years.
-[X] Ydrys: Continue to respond to the Patrician Crisis
--[X] Accept non-Patricians with on-the-job administrative experience as Patricians (Influence)
-[X] Rhys: Investigate rumours of the Khan's generals.
-[X] Rhys: Create a wide web of contacts across the Ymaryn sphere (Influence)
-[X] Haul: Applying Current Telescopes:
--[X] (Army)
-[X] Prydyer: Evaluating foreign markets
-[X] Inato: Maintain this councilor.
-[X] Aderyn: Rebuild Neighbourhood Watches (Authority)
-[X] Euryg: Strategic Independence Reform

I still don't want to poach from the splinter states, it strikes me as something that'll harm internal diplomacy quite a lot. I do agree that we need more info on the other splinter states, but I don't think it should be done at the cost of the neighbourhood watches. The point about legacy is something that I missed so I've changed my plans to try and mitigate it's loss.
 
10ebbor10 said:
Then, in just the second vote after the lightning rounds, the weighting as a result of Divinely Glorious Elites prevented peacefull relations with the Khan, and caused the current cataclysm.
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I honestly don't think there were peaceful relations with the Khan were really on the table. I mean, our options were essentially: stupid war, fight in our own defense, bribe, big bribe, and collaborate. The only two options I can see avoiding a war with the Khan are: big bribe and collaborating. Big bribe isn't even certain in my mind, the Great Khan easily could've wanted more in the future. There was a chance for peace there, but it wasn't guaranteed. Is it really arrogance to refuse to bribe bullies? I mean, there was no way to tell before the war that the Khan was really anything special compared to all of the others who the People turned back. Collaborating would've just meant the Ymaryn turned on their neighbours and with the Great Khan, utterly savaging them. We would be fine, but it'd be a worse world; working with the Khan would've been a terrible option, realistically. We'd be helping the Mongol conquests, some of the bloodiest wars of history.

Aranfan said:
I can only think of the Money Crisis that ended when Trelli exploded, and the Horsemen's Plague + Pure situation. What were some of the others?
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Out of curiosity, I went back to check on this for my own memory.

These are the times were it felt like we were in deep trouble:
1. Storm Clan war, we were utterly unprepared.
2. Corruption crisis (one of the early Big Men coerced the tribal chiefs to support his son and gave the shamans a vote in electing the Heir).
3. Reign of Bynwyn (Hero who gave the Sacred Warding and fought a number of wars, winning only by a miracle).
4. Stone Age Tax Reform
5. The Palace Megaproject
6. The double Cholera/Coughing Plagues shortly before the discovery of iron.
7. Phygriff saving us from Xhoyr
8. Yenyna and the Epic Age
9. God Fist Incident (it was a literal prophesy we nearly ignored with rock falls, everyone dies at the end)
10. Second Son Crisis
11. Money crisis
12. Iron Age Plague and Forhuch invasion

Of those: 4,5 and 7-12 felt like points where there were fingers on the scale.

Sivantic said:
@Redium how big of a project is this? What would we need to do to fulfill? Under which advisor would this task fall under?
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Not huge (1-2 actions at most), but the bigger part of the problem will be finding the space. You could probably manage to carve out a section in Txolla for it if you do a land survey. The Highlanders have been doing their best to kill everyone and wreck things so you'd be able to find uninhabited lands there. Alternatively, you could conquer the Highlanders and carve it out of their lands. The last option is to set them up as a March on the Great Plains, but that's its own vote; you could do this later if you really need to.
 
Fireiy said:
I still don't want to poach from the splinter states, it strikes me as something that'll harm internal diplomacy quite a lot. I do agree that we need more info on the other splinter states, but I don't think it should be done at the cost of the neighbourhood watches. The point about legacy is something that I missed so I've changed my plans to try and mitigate it's loss.
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Except it is not internal diplomacy
Redium said:
They are very much not your vassals right now.

The big conflict of the quest is going to be working with the Splinter States enough to keep you loosely together until you can reunify. It's going to take assistance as well as subtle sabotage to make it happen. It's much more a diplomatic or intrigue problem than anything else.
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They are splinter states right now, the Thunder Mountain, Greenshore and Western Wall(albeit closer to us than the rest) and part of the deal is ensuring they cannot fully break away. Poaching through bribes and lofty positions in the Core helps keep them off balance and dependent on us.
 
Sivantic said:
Except it is not internal diplomacy

They are splinter states right now, the Thunder Mountain, Greenshore and Western Wall(albeit closer to us than the rest) and part of the deal is ensuring they cannot fully break away. Poaching through bribes and lofty positions in the Core helps keep them off balance and dependent on us.
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They may not be our vassals right now, but poaching from them so openly will guarantee that they drift further away. Right now we have a favor from Western Wall and we're married to the leader of Hyatha's daughter. I would prefer diplomacy with them since we've already got a foothold, intrigue and sabotage can be reserved for Greenshore and Thunder Mountain.
 
Fireiy said:
They may not be our vassals right now, but poaching from them so openly will guarantee that they drift further away. Right now we have a favor from Western Wall and we're married to the leader of Hyatha's daughter. I would prefer diplomacy with them since we've already got a foothold, intrigue and sabotage can be reserved for Greenshore and Thunder Mountain.
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Right now, everyone is shattered from the Horde, nobody can afford to pull away too much without drawing in the sharks. Taking some of their Patricians keeps them from drifting away. The Greenshore King has subordinated the Patricians and none of them are happy. (Incidentally, this is also probably why Haul is acting up and, because he had to deal with such a mess, and fears of being used and discarded) Thunder Mountain outright expelled their officials. We are already unhappy with either of their actions.
 
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