...I wonder if Fiadh's cocoa cup is actually self-refilling tinkertech?

MilitantBird said:
The only part of the logic here I think is a bit dicey is the part where they assume Monster is just continuing the Nine under a different name
I don't think they are? At least, I don't think most of the most-informed here, are, and my understanding is that the assumption this is just the Nine renamed is something they're actively trying to avoid.

Flairina said:
PRT is useless/utterly incapable of communicating with itself indeed.
I do wonder if this task force was actually told much about the interviews with Heartbreaker's captured children, or if that was deemed obviously unrelated and thus not something they needed to know, yeah.

Guess that answers why.
I suspect that may also be because if they thought brute force would work against the Nine, and now against the Wild Hunt, they'd just throw the Triumvirate at the problem. So far, though, no one's been able to stop any of the members of the Wild Hunt by going straight at them, including former now-deceased members of the Nine, Hearbreaker, and Nilbog and his army, so I'd guess the task force is assuming that to win, they'll need to approach this at an angle.

...huh, that's weird. Genuinely not sure what's up with that; might need to reread.
Hah, well, that I think might be a case of asking the wrong question. IIRC, it is after all not simply a case of a stolen suit, but the result of Monster murdering the Dragonslayers and taking their stuff. I suspect that the PRT still hasn't sufficiently adjusted its expectations to Monster and Pride's combined abilities, combined with lack of knowledge about the Dragonslayers. I mean, how'd the two of them even track down the Dragonslayers' secret base when no one else has been able to, much less get through the defenses that surely three such powerful tinkers would set up at their lair, much less then also manage to fight three flying, heavily armed, power-armored warriors and win?

presumably that'll only change once they inevitably blame Nilbog's plague on Bonesaw
Oh, pretty sure that's already happening:
Monster 6.s said:
Two days later, I can't misunderstand the situation any longer. Emma doesn't have a cold, it's that goddamn thing Bonesaw released in Chicago.
...Though I'm not entirely sure where that is in the timeline relative to this, come to think of it.
 
The only part of the logic here I think is a bit dicey is the part where they assume Monster is just continuing the Nine under a different name

As Flairina pointed out, that honor actually goes to them thinking that there is no reason for Cherish to naturally hate her dad and thus want him dead, when they have a good part of the siblings in custody to tell them how bad he was towards them.

...huh, that's weird. Genuinely not sure what's up with that; might need to reread.

Can't steal something already stolen from the dead.

I wonder if any other person in the briefing has noticed yet that all the deaths mentioned so far are villains.

Given how little details were given and the number of unnecessary redacting at stupid points, I think they would just assume the innocents haven't been talked about.
 
As an aside, I'm pleasantly surprised at how consistently I'm writing nowadays, once you account for coping with really shitty weather conditions cutting into my writing time. (This month has been -and promises to continue to be- seriously dangerous to be sleeping outdoors in) I'm not writing anywhere near as fast as I used to, but I am at least doing a little creative writing most days. That's a hell of a lot better than back in the Nightmare Apartment.

I'm loving this- so much better than a lame PHO Interlude, or the obligatory PRT Director/Protectorate war council.

I hadn't been thinking of those as comparison points while writing, but now that you mention it those are the usual things for broadly-equivalent scenes in Wormfic, yeah.

My two main goals/thought processes were

1: The Hunt Hunters will (obviously) be important and relevant to our protagonists, and I want the audience to know their basic personalities and powers before they start interacting with The Wild Hunt, so readers have some ability to understand what is happening when these folks do show up without having to cover such moments from their perspective.

2: I wanted to capture/communicate the nature here of a large bureaucracy's imperfect interactions with individuals across time and space. (Which does relate pretty directly to your commentary about the PRT Director/Protectorate war council)

With a tertiary component of having on my mind the moment in Monster's thread where I gave a summary of the PRT/Protectorate understanding of Taylor and Cherie's timeline and people commented that it would've been nice if that had been done up as an Interlude instead.

But expanding on that second point: a common failure point of pop culture in general that early Worm avoided pretty well while Wormfic depressingly consistently walks right into is Failing The Sally-Anne Test constantly the instant events cover larger ground than personal social groupings. Everybody everywhere knows that the protagonist exists, and what they've been up to, and everybody's knowledge of the protagonist's actions matches to the protagonist's understanding of their experiences without regard to things like 'who all even witnessed the event to relay it to other people?' (Except maybe whatever a given Wormfic has Taylor getting up to Deliberately Secretly)

This has always driven me up the wall about Wormfic. The Protectorate and PRT is a bureaucracy spanning across much of North America with dozens of major branches that are themselves probably made of hundreds of people apiece. Much of the information about capes is going to be witness statements and study of evidence after the fact, especially capes like Monster!Taylor who are operating out of the public eye, and large parts of the bureaucracy that are studying patterns and helping make decisions will never even see individual capes they are building psych profiles and whatnot for, even if the cape is brought in successfully within their jurisdiction. Interpretations of capes are going to be best guesses by people with partial information, said information itself filtered through the lenses of other people in the first place, and then this Telephone Game is going to continue across Departments and all if a cape changes jurisdictions, all of this exacerbated by the ambiguity of language and variability in how one's fellow humans use words you ostensibly share.

So part of the function of this prologue is to really draw reader attention to how the people on this task force have zero personal familiarity with Taylor/Cherie/Brockton Bay and are relying on pictures painted by other people in other Departments who don't even have a complete picture in the first place. Their best guesses about other peoples' best guesses work okay when it's basic factoids about what happened (but still has notable holes!), but when it comes to guessing why things went down a given way and all, the mixture of what info they have vs what info they don't have means their best attempts at explaining events can look extremely strange to someone who has read Monster/How I Met Your Monster and so knows What Actually Happened.

...huh, that's weird. Genuinely not sure what's up with that; might need to reread.

I'm going to emphasize that I deeply disapprove of the Thinkers Are Heavily Defined By Being Right Constantly style of writing used by both canon and Wormfic. The Thinktank being seemingly wrong can be that... they're wrong. They asked the wrong questions, their powers gave correct answers but they misinterpreted the meaning through bad assumptions, etc.

I wonder if any other person in the briefing has noticed yet that all the deaths mentioned so far are villains. If they're trying to analyse the Wild Hunt, isn't it relevant to figure out the serial killers' MO and preferred victims?

Sure! Which is why it's Very Alarming that early in her career Taylor was spotted roaming the BB high school everybody knows has lots of Wards, in her Combat Form.

And also alarming that she killed some random grocery store owner whose cape ID is still not known and therefore they don't actually know it's a Villain.

And that Cherie dropped in on and terrorized a Ward in her civilian ID in her home.

Monster!Taylor looks pretty dubious from the outside. (Much like canon Taylor)

...I wonder if Fiadh's cocoa cup is actually self-refilling tinkertech?

Nah, just me writing most of the prologue in terrible conditions and doing a bad job of keeping track of stuff, and then not wanting to do a careful combing of the chapters just to make sure this stupid minor detail is slightly more realistic when I could be investing such effort into making sure I haven't done much more seriously problematic writing errors.

I do wonder if this task force was actually told much about the interviews with Heartbreaker's captured children, or if that was deemed obviously unrelated and thus not something they needed to know, yeah.

It's in the files! But they're not going to go over every file in this briefing (That would take forever, both in the sense of 'me writing it' and in the sense of 'them taking forever on prepwork when they're expected to be stopping these people as soon as feasible'), and anyway I'm sort of amused at readers assuming It's Obvious that Cherie would hate her dad enough to want him dead given that over the years readers have conveyed surprise at that detail a decent amount, and furthermore I've given the audience a lot of info on things like 'Cherie keeps her real feelings on the down-low while seeming very much like a heart-on-sleeve person' and 'Cherie actually was comparatively positive on her father when she thought he wanted to conquer Canada or something'.

Cherie also was, by the time Heartbreaker died, one of the kids with comparatively high freedom/privileges, trusted by Heartbreaker to both help her find new targets and also allowed to go run off by herself for days at a time. The audience knows she was doing that to decompress because of how awful the family dynamic was, but PRT interviews asking after Cherie would get responses like...

Aroa: You mean the big sis Daddy let do whatever she wanted?
Florence: Daddy stopped letting me punish her. She was so obviously his favorite.
Darlene: I don't understand why she was so happy. Everything sucked, and she was so mean to me, but she was always smiling.
Random Aunt: Nikky let that irresponsible girl run freely while barely trusting me to get groceries sometimes.
Romeo: I honestly lost track of how many 'boyfriends' and 'girlfriends' she had.

... and so on; the only detail that would both have decent odds of coming out and also be understood as a plausible reason for Cherie to be murderously angry is the 'triggered by being buried alive' bit.
 
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I'm going to emphasize that I deeply disapprove of the Thinkers Are Heavily Defined By Being Right Constantly style of writing used by both canon and Wormfic. The Thinktank being seemingly wrong can be that... they're wrong. They asked the wrong questions, their powers gave correct answers but they misinterpreted the meaning through bad assumptions, etc.

That was largely how I interpreted it, I just was trying to figure out how/why they got to that wrong answer beyond "starting at said wrong answer and haphazardly jamming the facts around it". I suppose that starting assumption/impression of Taylor gathering allies + "taking != theft if the aggrieved party is dead" explains it well enough.

It's in the files! But they're not going to go over every file in this briefing (That would take forever, both in the sense of 'me writing it' and in the sense of 'them taking forever on prepwork when they're expected to be stopping these people as soon as feasible'), and anyway I'm sort of amused at readers assuming It's Obvious that Cherie would hate her dad enough to want him dead given that over the years readers have conveyed surprise at that detail a decent amount, and furthermore I've given the audience a lot of info on things like 'Cherie keeps her real feelings on the down-low while seeming very much like a heart-on-sleeve person' and 'Cherie actually was comparatively positive on her father when she thought he wanted to conquer Canada or something'.

Cherie also was, by the time Heartbreaker died, one of the kids with comparatively high freedom/privileges, trusted by Heartbreaker to both help her find new targets and also allowed to go run off by herself for days at a time. The audience knows she was doing that to decompress because of how awful the family dynamic was, but PRT interviews asking after Cherie would get responses like...

Aroa: You mean the big sis Daddy let do whatever she wanted?
Florence: Daddy stopped letting me punish her. She was so obviously his favorite.
Darlene: I don't understand why she was so happy. Everything sucked, and she was so mean to me, but she was always smiling.
Random Aunt: Nikky let that irresponsible girl run freely while barely trusting me to get groceries sometimes.
Romeo: I honestly lost track of how many 'boyfriends' and 'girlfriends' she had.

... and so on; the only detail that would both have decent odds of coming out and also be understood as a plausible reason for Cherie to be murderously angry is the 'triggered by being buried alive' bit.

Yeah, decent enough reasons when accounting for how information gets lost in the change of hands I guess. It just feels like the assumption they made in place of anything in the vein of reality is absurd enough you have to wonder why no one went "hang on now, does that really sound like the most likely scenario"? Which, someone probably did, but if so it clearly did not make it all the way up the bureaucratic ladder, and was thus replaced by general fearmongering of Monster being an absurdly tough brute/changer AND a master powerful enough to chain an emotional master/sensor with absurd power herself.
 
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Yeah, decent enough reasons when accounting for how information gets lost in the change of hands I guess. It just feels like the assumption they made in place of anything in the vein of reality is absurd enough you have to wonder why no one went "hang on now, does that really sound like the most likely scenario"? Which, someone probably did, but if so it clearly did not make it all the way up the bureaucratic ladder, and was thus replaced by general fearmongering of Monster being an absurdly tough brute/changer AND a master powerful enough to chain an emotional master/sensor with absurd power herself.
True, but then that's pretty much in character for the PRT. Overestimating benefits them in every way when you think about it, it helps prepare for worst case scenarios and it makes them look better regardless of whether they win or lose. It doesn't help them to win, but they aren't meant to win.
 
Yeah, decent enough reasons when accounting for how information gets lost in the change of hands I guess. It just feels like the assumption they made in place of anything in the vein of reality is absurd enough you have to wonder why no one went "hang on now, does that really sound like the most likely scenario"? Which, someone probably did, but if so it clearly did not make it all the way up the bureaucratic ladder, and was thus replaced by general fearmongering of Monster being an absurdly tough brute/changer AND a master powerful enough to chain an emotional master/sensor with absurd power herself.

The exact initial quote is...

"Our top theories are an unknown Master power keeping Matchmaker compliant, Monster being a highly competent manipulator able to outmaneuver a parahuman who senses emotions in significant detail, or Monster having somehow coerced Matchmaker, probably with the threat of death."

... followed shortly by...

"Or that our psych profiles are missing key information, or that something else entirely is at work and we're just hurting ourselves by planning for these problems that don't exist."

... so... no? They've got three top theories, one of which is even kind of accurate ('coercing Cherie with the threat of death' is absolutely a fair description of a notable chunk of their interactions), followed by an acknowledgment that their top theories could be wildly wrong due to missing information. There's not a singular assumption here that is being hard-run with for no reason. I would in fact summarize this whole conversation as 'this is really confusing, we don't know what the hell is happening here, and we don't like being this ignorant'.

I also was pretty careful about the phrasing of 'an unknown Master power'. They're not necessarily guessing Taylor has such a power. They're saying 'Taylor or some parahuman we missed'.
 
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one of which is even kind of accurate ('coercing Cherie with the threat of death' is absolutely a fair description of a notable chunk of their interactions),
One of the things that they're missing is that Charie finds death threats to be attractive, albeit not enjoyable in the wild. But it's something she seems to, not enjoy, but respond to in a submissive yet eager manner against her own will.

She doesn't like it emotionally. She doesn't like it physically. She doesn't even like it sexually. But she can't keep herself away from it. Some per of her, in a ducked up dysfunctional way, responds positively towards it.

A part of her goes 'yes. This is how relationships are supposed to work. This is normal. I need this' to the displeasure of the rest of her.
 
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I also was pretty careful about the phrasing of 'an unknown Master power'. They're not necessarily guessing Taylor has such a power. They're saying 'Taylor or some parahuman we missed'.
I mean, not that unreasonable, except for that its surprising that the base assumption, given they are looking for a human controlling master in this group, would naturally be Cherie controlling Taylor, and that doesn't seem to have been considered. I'm confused as to why it wasn't, really.
 
I mean, not that unreasonable, except for that its surprising that the base assumption, given they are looking for a human controlling master in this group, would naturally be Cherie controlling Taylor, and that doesn't seem to have been considered. I'm confused as to why it wasn't, really.
It's the completely natural assumption that Cherie isn't controlling Taylor given the (incorrect) assumption Cherie had no particular desire to see her father dead and the (correct) observation that the MO basically stayed the same after Cherie joined up.

If Cherie was the one in control, you'd sorta expect a noticeable pivot to a new agenda/pattern, yeah? And if she simply could control Taylor and also didn't want her father dead, less than clear why she wouldn't have interfered.
 
The bits they're looking at haven't gotten to it yet, but in terms of motive there's a document listing people to kill to make the world better, then she outright says on camera why she's killing folk like Jack. It's not that she's left things unclear, entirely, she's just unaccountably spooky now and then.

So glad this is back, thanks so much for writing it.
 
It's nice to see you back writing this again! Loved Monster from how batshit insane everyone was acting. I wanted to make an account to share some thoughts regarding this chapter.

While I generally agree with approaching characters' knowledge purely from what they are privy to, I dislike the usage of Watchdog this chapter. I feel like it's a bit too handwavey way to remove the Dragonslayers investigation from the discussion, and to me lands more in the realms of changing the nature of something that was putting a chip in the direction of the story to make the plot flow well rather than something that might naturally happen. I can agree with Watchdog being vague and unhelpful, but I don't think it should be used as a way to bring up wrong information and then have other characters work off of said wrong information. There could be more potential coming from investigating the Dragonslayers, yet the way it was brought up here comes off to me more as shooting the plot point down.

Otherwise I think your writing has been excellent and I'm excited to see where the story blooms from here.

Also I was wondering if you have any plans to tackle Pastor? I think that's one of a few passing canon plot points that could feasibly appear in Wild Hunt.
 
It's nice to see you back writing this again! Loved Monster from how batshit insane everyone was acting. I wanted to make an account to share some thoughts regarding this chapter.

While I generally agree with approaching characters' knowledge purely from what they are privy to, I dislike the usage of Watchdog this chapter. I feel like it's a bit too handwavey way to remove the Dragonslayers investigation from the discussion, and to me lands more in the realms of changing the nature of something that was putting a chip in the direction of the story to make the plot flow well rather than something that might naturally happen. I can agree with Watchdog being vague and unhelpful, but I don't think it should be used as a way to bring up wrong information and then have other characters work off of said wrong information. There could be more potential coming from investigating the Dragonslayers, yet the way it was brought up here comes off to me more as shooting the plot point down.

Personally I just blamed it on Cauldron, they let the Nine/Sibby run wild because "more capes would flock to the Protectorate" so it wouldn't be that surprising if they did a bit of fearmongering to try and milk the Hunt in the same way.
 
I mean, not that unreasonable, except for that its surprising that the base assumption, given they are looking for a human controlling master in this group, would naturally be Cherie controlling Taylor, and that doesn't seem to have been considered. I'm confused as to why it wasn't, really.

Well...

It's the completely natural assumption that Cherie isn't controlling Taylor given the (incorrect) assumption Cherie had no particular desire to see her father dead and the (correct) observation that the MO basically stayed the same after Cherie joined up.

If Cherie was the one in control, you'd sorta expect a noticeable pivot to a new agenda/pattern, yeah? And if she simply could control Taylor and also didn't want her father dead, less than clear why she wouldn't have interfered.

... pretty much this: the consistency of Taylor's MO and all is strange if you assume Cherie started Mastering her sometime after Taylor killed Heartbreaker and That Is Our Explanation Of Why Things Happened The Way They Did.

One way to explain this would be to guess that Cherie was controlling Taylor all the way to the hit on Nilbog, but pretty much any way of making that theory work is

A: Terrifying (What do you mean Cherie can Master someone from however many dozens or hundreds of miles separate Brockton Bay from Toronto?!?)

and B: difficult to reconcile with what has happened since. (If Cherie can Master people from well beyond the horizon... why hasn't she been constantly abusing this?)

The bits they're looking at haven't gotten to it yet, but in terms of motive there's a document listing people to kill to make the world better, then she outright says on camera why she's killing folk like Jack. It's not that she's left things unclear, entirely, she's just unaccountably spooky now and then.

That gets into one of those insidious reader-judging-overly-harshly-fictional-character points: the audience knows what all was in Taylor's thought process when delivering those statements, but the Protectorate has seen her doing things that really don't seem to fit to this 'I'm murdering to make the world a better place' position. Or more accurately, if it is consistent it carries connotations like 'Taylor possibly thinks murdering Heroes will make the world a better place'. Either way: not something the Heroes have reason to look at and go, "Thumbs up! This is a heroic person I endorse!"

While I generally agree with approaching characters' knowledge purely from what they are privy to, I dislike the usage of Watchdog this chapter. I feel like it's a bit too handwavey way to remove the Dragonslayers investigation from the discussion, and to me lands more in the realms of changing the nature of something that was putting a chip in the direction of the story to make the plot flow well rather than something that might naturally happen. I can agree with Watchdog being vague and unhelpful, but I don't think it should be used as a way to bring up wrong information and then have other characters work off of said wrong information. There could be more potential coming from investigating the Dragonslayers, yet the way it was brought up here comes off to me more as shooting the plot point down.

If the plot never touches on the Dragonslayers' bodies being found and whatnot, that will be a fuckup on my part, but for the moment the main 'narrative implication' here is that the Hunt Hunters (... who I really should figure out what the hell their internal designation would be, because it wouldn't be that) just know that Taylor and Cherie didn't sneak into the Dragonslayer lair and steal a suit undetected or something.

As for Watchdog...

Well, if somebody had asked me four years ago why The Wild Hunt was taking so long (Nobody did this. They asked if it was still coming or not, mostly), I'd have honestly answered that Watchdog was one of the big reasons why. (In retrospect, the overwhelming shittiness of my apartment situation was the key factor, eclipsing everything else, but I really didn't grasp how bad the apartment complex was until fairly late in my time in it) I'd have probably placed them as number 2 for Pain In The Ass Obstacles To Constructing This Plot. (Number 1 was 'my own messy writing process that has minimal preplanning')

Like, 3-4 years ago, I tried really hard to dig up what Watchdog is actually like. I looked at wiki pages, dug through WoG threads, read Ward, etc, and was aggravated to realize this organization has, like... no definition. We know Accord and Kenzie were part of it, and that's... basically it? Like, on the wiki page for Watchdog, there's exactly 6 names given for this organization that cannot possibly be so tiny, and only three of them have pages for themselves. (Hunch is the third name with a page, but there's basically no info on him) How their powers worked is vague outside Kenzie and arguably Accord, and how any of them actually functioned within the organization is entirely unexplored and unexplained. (I honestly don't have any idea how Accord is supposed to have been useful within Watchdog)

And Wildbow's WoG statements tend to use Watchdog as yet another narrative cudgel, where eg his WoG for why Nilbog was left alone is basically 'Watchdog could tell the Protectorate that attacking Nilbog was a horrible idea, but not give them any understanding of why it would be a bad idea, so all they could do was leave Nilbog alone rather than plan countermeasures for his contingencies'.

So we've got this vast organization skilled at ferreting out information, whose members are basically entirely undefined, whose powers are also basically entirely undefined, and where what few examples for understanding how they fit into the setting don't use them as a superpowered intelligence agency but instead as a really dumb justification for why the Protectorate makes certain decisions that the narrative is dependent on but aren't obviously intuitive of decisions.

That's all pretty awful by itself, but it leaves me in an extremely awkward position for writing The Wild Hunt, because this task force is exactly one of the situations I'd expect a Thinktank to be called on to help with, but if I want to handle them in a nuanced and realistic way I have to make up a bunch of Thinker and Tinker powers with clear rules, make sure none of them create writing or worldbuilding problems ("Wait, wouldn't Tripwire's power have forewarned the Protectorate of Taylor's intent to hit Nilbog?" "... yes." "So-" "PRETEND IT MAKES SENSE ANYWAY"), and then having invested however many hours of effort into constructing Fanon Watchdog, I'd... reference them obliquely a handful of times within The Wild Hunt itself, and all this effort would have nearly zero impact on the audience experience.

I may someday do a story where I put that much effort into designing Watchdog, but if I do, it'll be a story about somebody in Watchdog.

That's a long-winded way of saying that I'm not surprised by dissatisfaction at Watchdog's handling but it's not something I'm going to try to 'fix'. It's not worth the effort needed.
 
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So we've got this vast organization skilled at ferreting out information, whose members are basically entirely undefined, whose powers are also basically entirely undefined, and where what few examples for understanding how they fit into the setting don't use them as a superpowered intelligence agency but instead as a really dumb justification for why the Protectorate makes certain decisions that the narrative is dependent on but aren't obviously intuitive of decisions.

If you want to make it worse, remember that Las Vegas is supposedly thinker and stranger central and thus requires the local PRT to have several thinkers that could probably beat those guys easy or at the very least should be on a similar level... but they aren't used for some reason.

Not helping is of course the simple fact that Lisa and Coil and Accord and Dinah and Cherish and Number man and Contessa and some others I am sure I am forgetting aren't supposed to be the average thinkers, but something like the top ten (notice how this list has 7 names in it) but those are the only ones we see so the readers intuition on how powerful thinkers are is incredibly biased.
 
Yeah, one of the problems of Watchdog in Worm is that they are a group primarily of Thinkers, and Thinkers in Wildbow's works are all "wizards". Like, wizards in the Sherlock meme sense, where they somehow have all the answers, the answers are always correct (except when the protagonist is involved), and there is nothing you can do to stop them. They exist to be a Get-Out-of-Explaining-the-Plot token.
 
Yeah, one of the problems of Watchdog in Worm is that they are a group primarily of Thinkers, and Thinkers in Wildbow's works are all "wizards". Like, wizards in the Sherlock meme sense, where they somehow have all the answers, the answers are always correct (except when the protagonist is involved), and there is nothing you can do to stop them. They exist to be a Get-Out-of-Explaining-the-Plot token.

Hey! It's not as if Tattletale is supposed to have a *garbage in, garbage out* problem but is never wrong, or that Dinah gives probabilities and not certain futures, yet everything above 40% may as well be 100% given her track record.

Oh, wait. :V
 
The part about Watchdog that confused me was that I thought putting 3 precogs in the same room was a sure-fire way to make sure they're all wrong since their predictions are tainted by each other.

Like precog 1 predicts heads, then precog 2 messes up precog 1's prediction by also reporting heads, which gives 50/50 odds that it turns out tails simply because the two precogs couldn't account for each other correctly.

Also because thinkers seem to hate each other.

That could be fanon though. And honestly I should just be here for the ride, thinking about this stuff takes the fun out of it.
 
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Hunt Hunters (... who I really should figure out what the hell their internal designation would be, because it wouldn't be that)
The peterborough chronicle is the first recorded mention of the wild hunt in England.

The Knights of the Round allegedly drove the hunt temporarily out of england.

Dando's Dogs (The Dogs of Dando) allegedly followed the hunt seeking to retrieve the soul of their master, stolen by the hunt.
 
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Watchdog, the way I always saw it, is made of those bottom-of-the-barrel thinkers that the PRT can actually get, strong thinkers being generally ego cases and doing badly in the government because they hate when their advice is not followed.

Cauldron supplements its output with their actually good thinkers to make it credible when needed, while also altering it to their liking whenever they feel like it, because it is another lever to control the PRT and the government with.
 
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The 'fix' of Watchdog is easy:

There's no need to fix it, or headcanon "only the bad thinkers get sent there actually".

They're overworked and stretched thin like the entire rest of the world, and where in their starting days they had enough of a narrow scope to be reliable and precise, as the PRT and they grew alongside it, the problems unfortunately grew faster.

Assuming The Wild Hunt continues on its good intentions (if not necessarily good results), the precognitive parts of the thinktank perceive if not necessarily register that, and so focus on more outright malicious dangers, the rest of the analytical thinkers follow suit, and the end result is, even though from on high they get the order "look into X", only a few people are free to do so, (to say nothing of potential Accord-lites who are convinced their thing is the more important bit and so focus on that (but probably without embezzling the funds of the organisation)).

So even though in theory the think tank is a wide pool of different thinkers intended to, through that breadth of perspectives, bring more accurate information, in practice it only happens when shit's actually going to be hitting the fan. At which point, the people who need to hear it might not get the message in time.
 
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Or more accurately, if it is consistent it carries connotations like 'Taylor possibly thinks murdering Heroes will make the world a better place'.
Isn't literally everyone she's killed a villain? I'm not sure where you'd get that connotation. Now have some of those murders put heroes in danger, sure, but that's just reckless shortsidedness, as one might expect of a teen. Which is still something to disapprove of, but is not the same thing as murdering heroes deliberately.
 
The part about Watchdog that confused me was that I thought putting 3 precogs in the same room was a sure-fire way to make sure they're all wrong since their predictions are tainted by each other.

Like precog 1 predicts heads, then precog 2 messes up precog 1's prediction by also reporting heads, which gives 50/50 odds that it turns out tails simply because the two precogs couldn't account for each other correctly.

Also because thinkers seem to hate each other.

That could be fanon though. And honestly I should just be here for the ride, thinking about this stuff takes the fun out of it.

That's not really a big obstacle to Watchdog unless you assume Thinkers and info-Tinkers are basically all relying on precog. (Which, though precogs are depressingly common within Worm, they aren't supposed to be The Most Common Form Of Thinker) And even then, in your example they wouldn't interfere -the precog mutual foiling is centered on the issue of precogs making decisions based on precog. Two or twenty or two hundred precogs all asked to predict a coin flip from a non-parahuman would all give the same answer.

It's when you're dealing with a precog con artist selecting the coin face based on what you're going to say interacting with another precog whose answer is based on what the coin flip will be that their powers wig out and they're just two regular people using regular human decision-making.

The peterborough chronicle is the first recorded mention of the wild hunt in England.

The Knights of the Round allegedly drove the hunt temporarily out of england.

Dando's Dogs (The Dogs of Dando) allegedly followed the hunt seeking to retrieve the soul of their master, stolen by the hunt.

I was thinking in terms of something a bit less poetic, but then I regularly gawk at how Actual Government Programs actually do get names running off this kind of logic.

So I might go with riffing on the Peterborough Chronicle? Not sure.

The 'fix' of Watchdog is easy:

There's no need to fix it, or headcanon "only the bad thinkers get sent there actually".

They're overworked and stretched thin like the entire rest of the world, and where in their starting days they had enough of a narrow scope to be reliable and precise, as the PRT and they grew alongside it, the problems unfortunately grew faster.

Assuming The Wild Hunt continues on its good intentions (if not necessarily good results), the precognitive parts of the thinktank perceive if not necessarily register that, and so focus on more outright malicious dangers, the rest of the analytical thinkers follow suit, and the end result is, even though from on high they get the order "look into X", only a few people are free to do so, (to say nothing of potential Accord-lites who are convinced their thing is the more important bit and so focus on that (but probably without embezzling the funds of the organisation)).

So even though in theory the think tank is a wide pool of different thinkers intended to, through that breadth of perspectives, bring more accurate information, in practice it only happens when shit's actually going to be hitting the fan. At which point, the people who need to hear it might not get the message in time.

I.... don't think I've managed to really get across the main reason I consider Watchdog a giant worldbuilding/storytelling headache.

So let's talk about the real world for a second!

When I was a child, DNA testing was New And Exciting technology in the field of criminal investigation, with people enthusiastically (and extremely naively) positing that it would End Crime Forever because of course you would always be caught perfectly. (The less delusional folks restricted their End Crime Forever predictions to 'end specific types of crime forever', such as rape. Still hilariously optimistic, but 5-year-old-me didn't actively wonder if these people would score negative on an IQ test) Now, even aside from the realities that DNA testing was slow, expensive, and not actually perfectly reliable, the relevant thing I'm getting at is that folks like professional assassins figured out the rules and worked out how to minimize the presence of incriminating DNA at crime sites.

This happens with every forensics technique. You invent fingerprinting, and people start wearing gloves when committing crimes. You figure out scent tracking with trained dogs, and people figure out they can do things like go through a river to make it way harder to pick up the trail again. It's an eternal arms race that will almost certainly continue so long as something recognizably like human civilization exists.

Okay, so why am I bringing this up in relation to Watchdog?

Because every single cape in Watchdog is effectively a new forensics technique for aspiring criminals to keep track of. However many dozens or hundreds of these folks there might be.

Even if I generously assume that evidence derived solely from a power is not admissible in court so The Guy Who Actually Is A Perfectly Reliable Lie Detector can't get a judge to jail you by just interrogating you and pinning you to the wall with probing questions, that's not going to stop the criminal justice system from using this stuff as an extra helping hand for getting an investigation to evidence that is court-admissible.

That's all maybe a bit abstract, so let me give a concrete example using a canon Watchdog cape and a slightly-tweaked version of Monster's events.

Let's imagine that when Cherie and Taylor burst into the Dragonslayers' lair and murdered them all and took their stuff, that last bit didn't happen. They just killed everyone and left. Furthermore, in this alternate timeline, Cherie and Taylor are mustache-twirling villains (Cherie: "I call the Evil Goatee!") who were being maximally scrupulous in their act of multiple homicide, going to enormous pains to counteract every forensics technique they know about. They left no fingerprints, they scrubbed away any traces of their own DNA, they made sure to obscure that the deaths were caused by murdertentacles, either killing the Dragonslayers more 'generically' (Knives, guns, whatever) or using murdertentacles but then adding further damage to make it look like it wasn't murdertentacles. We'll also say they did this about as perfectly as one could possibly do, so regular police, when they were called in by somebody finding the bodies six months later, have literally zero leads.

With zero leads, the cops leave it as a Mystery Case in their files, right?

No, they pass this on to the PRT. Watchdog is called in. For the purposes of this exercise, Kenzie of Ward happens to get assigned to this case: she shows up, she sets down her stupid canonical camera box for peering into the past and displaying in full 3D whatever happened in the area at whatever date she cares to name, and she scrolls that dial back until finally it's showing something of relevance: Taylor and Cherie's full act is displayed and recorded, photos of their faces are taken, and the PRT starts scrutinizing these two teens who have zero reason (beyond general paranoia) to think that the PRT could possibly trace these murders to them. Kenzie now sets up camera boxes in Brockton Bay at 'hotspots' for activity from this pair: she monitors them for months, figures out their MO or just listens in directly to their private conversations about what to do next, and eventually an op is set up to Catch Them In The Act: you might think Cherie's power would forewarn the Evil Mustache Pair, but nah, Kenzie has remotely monitored her and figured out how her power works and either Tinkers Are Bullshit comes into play (Kenzie makes a camera box that hides the emotional signatures of people or some such) or other capes are tapped who can neuter this hazard. (eg a teleporter hanging out with the ambush team outside Cherie's range, going on Kenzie's signal, who is watching Cherie from out of range using her camera boxes)

Evil Mustache Cherie And Taylor are caught red-handed, possibly having had no idea Kenzie existed, and off to jail with them!

And I'd have to invent and keep in mind dozens to hundreds of such esoteric, non-obvious forensics powers when trying to figure out how the PRT would be likely to Realistically respond to... anything Watchdog would be likely to be called in on. (And possibly plenty of things they wouldn't be called in on, depending on power mechanics. Think of how PtV lets Contessa account for Imp without having to actually know her power exists and all, as a comparison point)

And if I wanted the result to be intuitively sensible to readers, I'd furthermore have to constantly do Interludes with these guys that lay out their powers and duties and whatnot.

Watchdog honestly has a lot of interesting potential as a perspective. A Procedural Mystery story (or series of short stories) taking a look at how parahuman powers open up all kinds of options for the criminal justice system, upend assumptions about what can give away criminals, etc... that could be really fascinating!

But for a story like The Wild Hunt, Watchdog is just defined enough to imply the above stuff must be happening all the time, but not defined enough to actually readily figure out what the specific implications of Watchdog's existence would be. Which is awful and miserable to try to engage with.

Isn't literally everyone she's killed a villain? I'm not sure where you'd get that connotation. Now have some of those murders put heroes in danger, sure, but that's just reckless shortsidedness, as one might expect of a teen.

I'm talking about stuff like 'seen stalking Arcadia' and 'her partner-in-crime terrorized a Ward in their civilian ID'. Stuff that really doesn't resemble 'I exclusively target Villains'.

'Who all actually died' is not the only metric people use to guess intentions.
 
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I'm talking about stuff like 'seen stalking Arcadia' and 'her partner-in-crime terrorized a Ward in their civilian ID'. Stuff that really doesn't resemble 'I exclusively target Villains'.

'Who all actually died' is not the only metric people use to guess intentions.
Her partner in crime has a history of terrorizing random civilians, so that's just a reversion to pre-team up behavior.
 
I'm talking about stuff like 'seen stalking Arcadia' and 'her partner-in-crime terrorized a Ward in their civilian ID'. Stuff that really doesn't resemble 'I exclusively target Villains'.

Those seem like outliers though. If the MO ends up being "I target villains 90% of the time, but I go after heroes 10%", that's still better than S9 "I target civilians 100%, plus parahumans any time we want to recruit".

Also, with the targeting of Wards and random parahuman being a clear minority, I'd imagine the conclusion would be that Monster was a bnha Stain type villain, as in "I targeted that ward, and that parahuman, because I considered them villainous"
 
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