- Location
- USA
I had assumed the supplies would count towards upkeep so we should have had a lower upkeep cost over the winter because of that.
The Wild Edge (Fantasy Border Outpost)
- Thread starter inverted_helix
- Start date
- Original Fantasy
Oh honestly hadn't considered that. I suppose I could add it. It's quite reasonable an idea.
I don't know if it would have too much mechanical benefit given I hadn't considered it before. However it would be a bit of an obvious step in your gradual transition from border outpost to fortified border town. I'd probably have it as adding an Inn rather than just a guest house.
The forest is basically just too mutable for a map to last. On your standard patrol route you maintain a set of markers, but that's only possible because you're using that patrol route basically every day.
It's a bit of a misnomer. Rather than advanced supplies it's better to think of them as siege stores. They are only used when necessary, not just automatically.
Then yes they're still suffering the 2x multiplier that 'peasant' grade military units are suffering. Anyone on that level is a military asset even if they aren't specialized in it exactly. Hunting animals and hunting humans aren't so different that you don't have applicable ability.
Your assistant does hire them at a penalty.
Mechanically it does now. It is something I considered from the start, but quite frankly if I hadn't been nice about it the last time you got snowed in you'd have just been wiped out by starvation (well technically you'd have maybe survived but had to go Donner Party to do so and I didn't quite want to go that grim). Now that you have proper storage available don't expect that niceness. Though a secondary consideration is they're also siege stores in case you're besieged. Keep in mind that a substantial fraction (depending on your source possibly even the majority) of sieges in the medieval ages were resolved by the people inside the castle running out of food and starving to death without any assault on the walls. Generally a castle would want siege stores to survive at least six months so that you could wait until something forced your enemy to move.
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- Location
- USA
@inverted_helix not something we need for this turn but can you add in the option to purchase a unit of bricks as if the wall expansion is a success we will want to buy at least one unit next turn for use the following turn.
And siege stores, yeah probably will increase those each fall turn.
And siege stores, yeah probably will increase those each fall turn.
- Location
- Brazil
[X][Florian] Actively suggest a new eccentricity to try for your own amusement
-[X] Sugest that he walks around covered in flowers.
[X] Plan Calculated Construction.
-[X][Construction] Build a much larger wall encompassing quadruple the area so you won't need to expand for a long time. 3 actions, 150 denier, increases space by 36
-[X][Construction] An infirmary is needed to get the most out of having a healer. (1 action, 100 denier, 1 space)
-[X][Construction] While Florian brought his equipment he'll still need the workspace to set up in. Build a potions workshop. (1 action, 100 denier, 1 space)
-[X][Personal] Work on the laundry list of enchantments that Kaleb wants you to put on his equipment. (1 season work, or 2 half season actions. 50 denier per half season)
-[X][Personal] Spend time with Nerissa
--[X] Plant more Saints Blood? (Up to 3 more units, displacing things as you go, likely you won't have any issue from your father getting rid of enchanting fruit production for it)
---[X] Replace one grove with Saints Blood
-[X][Hunters 1] Scout to reduce chance of enemies slipping by.
-[X][Hunters 2] Explore the forest, collect flora and fauna samples. Attempt to map out the notable locations
-[X][Skirmishers] Scout to reduce chance of enemies slipping by.
-[X][Footmen 1] Patrol, reduce chance of enemies slipping by.
-[X][Footmen 2] Guard
--[X] The base and sawmill
-[X][Olivia] Get trained
-[X][Captain] Train Olivia (remove stealth malus)
-[X][Assistant] Recruit Specialist: Expert Horse Trainer
Okay there are two important things on this plan, first the orcs are rebuilding so we can afford to delay the wall completion, on the other hand after our request we realy need to start sending the potions yesterday, so buildign facilities has prioritie.
Second I am only making two more Groves because making three is a bad idea twice over, our limitation isn't production but shipping so a fourth grove is likely to go to waste, also we won't get money for the fruits untill the end of the war and that fourth slot is our Herb Garden , we realy can't afford to lose that 400 income right now, or ever.
Edit: Reduced the new Saints Blood groves from two to one since it was already questionable if we would be able to process the third grove and keeping the Hypno fruits going right now may be better for the war effort than potentialy some more potions in three seasons.
-[X] Sugest that he walks around covered in flowers.
[X] Plan Calculated Construction.
-[X][Construction] Build a much larger wall encompassing quadruple the area so you won't need to expand for a long time. 3 actions, 150 denier, increases space by 36
-[X][Construction] An infirmary is needed to get the most out of having a healer. (1 action, 100 denier, 1 space)
-[X][Construction] While Florian brought his equipment he'll still need the workspace to set up in. Build a potions workshop. (1 action, 100 denier, 1 space)
-[X][Personal] Work on the laundry list of enchantments that Kaleb wants you to put on his equipment. (1 season work, or 2 half season actions. 50 denier per half season)
-[X][Personal] Spend time with Nerissa
--[X] Plant more Saints Blood? (Up to 3 more units, displacing things as you go, likely you won't have any issue from your father getting rid of enchanting fruit production for it)
---[X] Replace one grove with Saints Blood
-[X][Hunters 1] Scout to reduce chance of enemies slipping by.
-[X][Hunters 2] Explore the forest, collect flora and fauna samples. Attempt to map out the notable locations
-[X][Skirmishers] Scout to reduce chance of enemies slipping by.
-[X][Footmen 1] Patrol, reduce chance of enemies slipping by.
-[X][Footmen 2] Guard
--[X] The base and sawmill
-[X][Olivia] Get trained
-[X][Captain] Train Olivia (remove stealth malus)
-[X][Assistant] Recruit Specialist: Expert Horse Trainer
Okay there are two important things on this plan, first the orcs are rebuilding so we can afford to delay the wall completion, on the other hand after our request we realy need to start sending the potions yesterday, so buildign facilities has prioritie.
Second I am only making two more Groves because making three is a bad idea twice over, our limitation isn't production but shipping so a fourth grove is likely to go to waste, also we won't get money for the fruits untill the end of the war and that fourth slot is our Herb Garden , we realy can't afford to lose that 400 income right now, or ever.
Edit: Reduced the new Saints Blood groves from two to one since it was already questionable if we would be able to process the third grove and keeping the Hypno fruits going right now may be better for the war effort than potentialy some more potions in three seasons.
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- Location
- St. Petersburg
We already have a tavern. Does this include lodgings? I wouldn't assume so, since it was built for locals who all have their own, but I suppose it's something that can be added as an upgrade?
I can't quite make out whether that answers the question or not. Is the mapping part of the action relevant, or is it a lost cause? I know I was the one who phrased it that way, but if it does not work and can not work by design, maybe the wording should just be changed to reflect that.
Hm. Can you run the math by me?
Suppose we have upkeep and income as they are currently:
Suppose our supplies number 1000 Denier.
What happens if we are besieged for 6 months (i.e. two seasons)?
Do all sources of income get blocked (we still had a stipend last winter, even though all outpost operations stopped running)? Can we cut some of the expense by stopping some of the facilities if we aren't getting income from them anyway? What starts happening once we run out of supplies?
I need an example with numbers to understand the mechanics and how critical supplies are to keep.
(what happens to Nerissa if we are besieged?)
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- Location
- USA
@inverted_helix do we get additional spaces if the wall is partially finished or only when the action finishes in full? Is 1 action in the wall expansion enough if partial or would we need 2 actions to get some new spaces for building?
- Location
- St. Petersburg
It would be useful to have that information displayed on the character sheet (I didn't find it), buuut... our third slot is the Hypnofruit, and it contributes 200 Denier towards our stipend right now.
Our father probably wouldn't mind swapping the fruit for Saint's Blood, given that he is the one ordering both, and the war must have shifted his priorities. Or maybe him and Mina are making full use of the fruit to gather valuable intel and wage a much more successful campaign than they otherwise would have. No way to know unless we ask them first, so I'd rather not change our production too much.
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[X][Florian] Actively suggest a new eccentricity to try for your own amusement
-[X] Sugest that he walks around covered in flowers.
[X] Plan Calculated Construction.
-[X] Sugest that he walks around covered in flowers.
[X] Plan Calculated Construction.
Sure I'll add it as something the assistant can arrange.
The tavern doesn't include lodgings because as you correctly identified it was meant for locals that all have their own. Upgrading it with lodgings wouldn't be that feasible because you'd basically have to tear it all down to rebuild. You can't just put a second floor on a one story building. The only reason to do that is if you really wanted to save on your construction space, and that really doesn't seem all that reasonable when I'm almost certain you're going to expand your area soon.
It's pretty much a lost cause. I imported it directly from you to the permanent list, I'll strike it now I guess.
Okay so as last winter all income sources besides the stipend immediately cease, and you can't actually spend the stipend directly it's just held up. So if you're sieged 2 seasons then the season after the siege you'll get those 2 seasons of saved value plus that season. So 1200 in backpay + the first season you're free.
Now somewhat debating on cutting expenses. Most of your upkeep is actually more on staffing than running the facilities, and unless you murder them (which will have consequences) the staff is still stuck there during a siege. I'm of two minds about how to handle upkeep in a siege. I'm leaning towards upkeep just staying flat because any savings on extraneous bits you aren't running is canceled out by new bits you need like extra arrows to discourage the enemy from raining arrows on you.
The other is to give you the option to discount your upkeep say 25% for not paying them wages (which you'll have to pay back later) and eat a morale penalty. Realistically they're spending most of their wages on stuff at the camp anyway, so modeling it as just having those supplies isn't unreasonable either.
But basically in the case of a siege you'll be immediately devolved into a miniturn where you'll be presented with options on how you want to proceed. One of those will be on whether you want to implement rationing immediately. This will draw out your supplies by 2x in exchange for a significant penalty to effectiveness and morale that might make the enemy choose to just storm you instead depending on circumstance. You can also choose to proceed as normal hoping you can break the siege before your supplies run out.
Case 1. No rationing. You run out of supplies towards the end of the first season (1000/1323 to be precise, remember the mod is accounted for buying them, so not double counted here) and start declining in effectiveness. The second season you see a rapid collapse in combat effectiveness as starvation mounts, you probably see some extreme failures and get overrun once you're sufficiently softened up. (For the sake of SV the graphics level will be turned down.)
Case 2. You ration. Your supplies extend through the first season and about halfway through the second (2000/1323 = 1.51). You have a manageable malus up to that point. The last half of the second season you'll see rapidly rising penalties and maybe get overrun anyway.
When you're in starvation you'll see deaths amongst your troops just from starvation, let alone if the enemy tries to attack.
Certain options are disallowed because this is SV and gore levels are limited.
Depends. They might ignore her, she might kill off enough of them to make her not worth the effort. They might kill her. She might get rescued by the other dryads. It's variable.
You can assume you'll build in area that the wall will enclose when it completes. It will be vulnerable if you're attacked while the wall is incomplete, but otherwise there's not a significant problem.
I'll add it to Nerissa's entry for you.
I thought I noted in the update, but the duke is ambivalent about which one is the priority and won't reduce your stipend if you switch. He is certainly using the hypnofruit (which is a very useful description and I'll steal now) for interrogation and so waging a bit more informed campaign. The values are hard to identify which is more useful. Once the healing potions are available it will lean that way, but the hypnofruit is available right now.
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- Location
- USA
Good to know on the budding space. I have switched my plan to two construction actions on the wall expansion and one action on setting up the potions lab. Next turn is finishing the wall expansion, infirmary and dry dock. Infirmary since that has wounded we want inside the wall as they would take time to evacuate as opposed to just getting a healthy Florian to safety so potions lab is safer to be outside the wall for a season, more so as that is what we need to get production of Saints Blood going.
Rough construction plan:
Spring-
Wall expansion x2
Potions Lan
Summer-
Finish wall expansion
Dry dock
Infirmary (if additional facility needed for saints blood it goes here)
Fall-
Housing Expansion
Wood tar and charcoal building
Improve defenses (unless we had to bump infirmary for production facility in which case infirmary goes here)
Winter
Make bricksx2
Add fire places to new housing
Rough construction plan:
Spring-
Wall expansion x2
Potions Lan
Summer-
Finish wall expansion
Dry dock
Infirmary (if additional facility needed for saints blood it goes here)
Fall-
Housing Expansion
Wood tar and charcoal building
Improve defenses (unless we had to bump infirmary for production facility in which case infirmary goes here)
Winter
Make bricksx2
Add fire places to new housing
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- Location
- St. Petersburg
Huh? Isn't it as simple as adding an extension to the structure, and then adding a door?
Ah, I see now the source of my confusion. The supplies and money are all rolled into a single resource, and are used interchangeably.
I mean, you could say 'of course they are!', that's how the quest was being run from the beginning... but this makes it harder to understand the influence of, shall we say, forced changes. For example, the troops under siege would be worried less about their pay (they can't spend it if they are dead; and inside our own camp we can pay them in a virtual currency since they only need to have real money when they go on leave or interact with the merchants), and a lot more about their food (since it is a concept much more physical than money). So temporarily cutting their pay should not be affecting them much in terms of life in the camp, while cutting their rations would change quite a few things and have a direct impact on their combat effectiveness - yet both options look the same in terms of reducing upkeep.
I guess it's just an abstraction that says 'you can reduce upkeep by this much (but no less than half because they still need to eat something), and eat that big a penalty in return'.
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- Location
- USA
@inverted_helix will we need any additional construction actions after the potions lab to work the saints blood?
I'll throw it out but we're obviously counting the eccentricity separate from the plan. Each person can submit one for their plans. We won't guarantee we'll use them all, but the more popular ones will have a bit more weight to them. Also you can list multiple ones if you want. Just make sure they're actually funny/interesting or we'll ignore them.
Since we presumably use Overgrowth logs for construction, can we ask Nerissa if she could force them to sprout once we install them in place?
Like, in one of earlier updates it was mentioned that in Overgrowth itself it takes a log several hours to sprout naturally.
And living walls are cool.
Also, can we pester our dad for an engineer or architector? Having such a fellow to design city plans (roads), sewers, buildings and stuff would be rad.
Particularly since we could use his expertise to rebuild shit to be actually good (Like, not needing constant repairs, and just being higher and thus giving more oomph for given space within walls).
Like, in one of earlier updates it was mentioned that in Overgrowth itself it takes a log several hours to sprout naturally.
And living walls are cool.
Also, can we pester our dad for an engineer or architector? Having such a fellow to design city plans (roads), sewers, buildings and stuff would be rad.
Particularly since we could use his expertise to rebuild shit to be actually good (Like, not needing constant repairs, and just being higher and thus giving more oomph for given space within walls).
Ah not what I thought you meant. I thought you meant putting another floor on. Basically this is no different fundamentally. It's still going to use up one of the abstract space units inside your walls to add an inn, just making it go through the tavern. Now if I was modeling more closely I'd say you couldn't because you already have exhausted your space inside the walls, but since I'm not modeling that closely we'll just say that's what you do when you build an inn.
Yes there's some necessary compromises between realism and difficulty of modeling.
No. At that point Florian will handle what else needs to be done basically. There will likely be materials costs associated with the processing but those are being imported on your father's dime.
Only if you built in her grove. Her powers don't extend into your base.
Keep in mind you built your base outside the Overgrowth. (It was completely impractical to do so inside.)
Hmm it's not something I made allowances for in mechanics design (since I started this far more abstract than that). I suppose I could add such an option and then have it unlock new construction options like paved roads, sewers, and such.
@inverted_helix
Given all you have mentioned about our granary/storage building and how it will aid us in a siege. Do you already have the town version of that in mind or as something we could elect to build?
Is something like this a decent ballpark? : Build a Large Storehouse: Requires 2 sets of Bricks, 4 Build Actions, 400 denars and 3 Spaces. Can store 4,000 supplies.
The Bricks are needed to provide a solid base to the building that will elevate it above the often sodden ground and allow the building to be built a couple stories high to save on room.
The storage is beyond what we need for out outpost now, but as a small town I can easily see our upkeep in the ~2500 range and having to build multiple small warehouses just seems annoying and inefficient.
Given all you have mentioned about our granary/storage building and how it will aid us in a siege. Do you already have the town version of that in mind or as something we could elect to build?
Is something like this a decent ballpark? : Build a Large Storehouse: Requires 2 sets of Bricks, 4 Build Actions, 400 denars and 3 Spaces. Can store 4,000 supplies.
The Bricks are needed to provide a solid base to the building that will elevate it above the often sodden ground and allow the building to be built a couple stories high to save on room.
The storage is beyond what we need for out outpost now, but as a small town I can easily see our upkeep in the ~2500 range and having to build multiple small warehouses just seems annoying and inefficient.
Hmm only 8 votes, and leading one only has half that. Likely I will try to update Sunday or Monday though.
Yeah something like that will become available. It's not particularly relevant right now though. Likely a bit cheaper than that actually if it was aiming for 4000 supplies.
I was hedging upward in price. I figured something like that would have a higher materials cost (Nails, boards, glue, rope, etc) than a good deal of what we have built already.
- Location
- St. Petersburg
I disagree with both proposed plans, but realize that there are objective reasons for why people vote that way. Hence why I didn't bother with proposing the one I prefer.
[X] Plan Expansion and Levee
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- Location
- USA
My main problem with Calculated Construction. is that it is not getting another unit as we now have the docks (and soon to be drydocks) to guard as well and that is a big portion of what is letting us keep a positive income.
Drydocks is 305 net profit with the port, 285 without it.
Port with current upkeep is providing 264.6 in extra funds, plus another 20% of what we spend each turn (so a turn where we spend 400 it saves us another 80).
For comparison our current net income is 543.15, if we ever lost the port that would be 278.55 which would slow us down a lot. More so if we lost the drydocks as well after they are built because 305 is a very nice increase to our income and ability to support specialists (including the 2 construction teams, healer and potioneer after our dad stops paying for them) and the ability to get the various units we need to hold off the next wave of orcs.
Drydocks is 305 net profit with the port, 285 without it.
Port with current upkeep is providing 264.6 in extra funds, plus another 20% of what we spend each turn (so a turn where we spend 400 it saves us another 80).
For comparison our current net income is 543.15, if we ever lost the port that would be 278.55 which would slow us down a lot. More so if we lost the drydocks as well after they are built because 305 is a very nice increase to our income and ability to support specialists (including the 2 construction teams, healer and potioneer after our dad stops paying for them) and the ability to get the various units we need to hold off the next wave of orcs.