Well hopefully if they see that bunch again they will just... The problem with magical worlds is that you can't really cripple an opponent and be certain they remain out of action for a few months. What can they do aside from killing them and dissapearing the bodies to make certain they will not come after them any more?
The Steep Path Ahead [Familiar of Zero AU]
- Thread starter shadenight123
- Start date
Personally I think the mercs are going to end up joining them, or at least be a friendly group that tends to pop up from time to time.
- Location
- Over the hill and far away
For the love of god WHY?
Well at this point there are three options for them. One, they never appear again. Two, they remain enemies. And Three, they start to get along with Louise and Saito.
Now considering they are a group of mercs that operate by a code of conduct, I just find it more likely that they will end up that way eventually. The only other option if they keep appearing is that eventually our two plucky heroes are going to have to kill them off.
- Location
- Over the hill and far away
...I think you're reading a different story than the rest of us are, I really do. In the story I'm reading, these mercenaries are cruel people who have a personal grudge against the protagonists, who aren't above stabbing someone in the back during a hostage exchange, willingly torture helpless women, and abduct said helpless women to be raped and tortured. I'm pretty sure that the protagonists won't start a long lasting friendship with a group of backstabbing, torturing rapists.
I could buy Louise and Saito killing them off. That I'd believe easily.
I could buy Louise and Saito killing them off. That I'd believe easily.
EXiCUR
Not As Planned
- Location
- Danger Close
That, or it's going to be a running gag of Luise and Saito running into them at the wrong times.
...Apparently we are reading two separate stories. Considering they haven't done that despite many chances to do so.
Plus, Louise kinda started all the backstabbing in the first place...
- Location
- Over the hill and far away
Or that, sure. But not friendship.
Oh is that whats got you.
I didn't say friendship, I said friendly. There is a big difference.
- Location
- Over the hill and far away
No, that is NOT what got me. Good lord no. No, no, a thousand times no.
Dimensionist
Grandmaster of Apologism, Keeper of the Faith
- Location
- Bangalore, India
No, they were pretty violent and degrading on Louise's end even before that (eat on the floor like a dog, target practice for magic with Saito as the dummy, etc.), and later on got even more so as she got hopped up on magic. Like the shock collar for apparently spending time with another woman, or the time Louise got addicted to gambling and beat up Saito so he wouldn't safeguard their money from her, or even her randomly shocking him so that he'd know his place.
What I'm saying is - canon Louise is a bitch. A grade A bitch I wouldn't inflict on my worst enemy. Yes, she has reasons for her actions, but then so does everyone else, and those reasons aren't remotely justifiable for what she does. The only reason people even accept it is because the tsundere archetype and girls beating on guys for comedic effect is a popular trope in manga/anime.
Saito is a carefree, not too bright, perverted teenager - so for those people sick of that archetype, or overtly annoyed by perverted actions, they regard him as The Devil himself (or something). People also don't like stupidity, so when he makes boneheaded moves from time to time form their perspective, they just slap Louise's retaliation as justified, regardless of how over-the-top it is. It's annoying, but eh - it's fiction, no need to get all that bent out of shape about it.
As for this particular moment ... I think you guys aren't really grasping what was happening right there. Louise, Saito and Marteau had no plan. They had no hope of changing things. If they'd continued to say no to the mercs, Siesta would have been killed, followed by them (if the mercs were sadists, or afraid of retaliation). And they wouldn't have been able to do a damn thing about that. If nothing else, complying at least bought them time. Heck, even Louise wanted to hold on to the wand for sentimental reasons, not because she thought she was apparently a player character with maxed out diplomacy and could somehow talk them out of it.
This wasn't a situation with a 'right' option. If they'd refused, the mercs would have killed Siesta, potentially moved on to them. Complying gave them more time, but would still have resulted in that same situation. They were screwed either way - it took a Deus Ex machina like Louise being able to cast magic without a wand or chant that saved them.
And no, they wouldn't have been able to resist if the mercs had followed through - that was the whole point behind them getting stuck like that. That they couldn't do anything against the mercs in that position.
This isn't an RPG game, where events like that have one path in them to come to a good ending. The moment the mercs had reneged on the deal, the moment they'd captured Siesta and Marteau, and basically gotten Saito and Louise in their sights and ready to be killed, they were screwed.
Saito didn't do the dumb thing - he did the one thing that could let them survive some time longer, even if it still meant little hope for victory. Anyone who'd tried to get smart in that position would have been killed.
- Location
- The Old Dominion
I think your a vastly underplaying the crap canon novel Saito pulled and honestly if he had been castrated or killed after the attempted rape I wouldn't have felt any pity for him but I will leave it at that as one this is not the thread for that sort of thing and two this Saito is a vastly better human being.
As for the stuation with the mercenaries if you are going to die or face worse anyway it is better to die fighting so I will simply agree to disagree with you on your view of the situation.
As for the stuation with the mercenaries if you are going to die or face worse anyway it is better to die fighting so I will simply agree to disagree with you on your view of the situation.
Dimensionist
Grandmaster of Apologism, Keeper of the Faith
- Location
- Bangalore, India
And I think you're overtly sensitive about what happened when Louise put a stop to it when she wanted to, and when both Saito's reasoning and actions are more 'immature teenager thinking that's what his love interest wants' and less 'malicious rapist attempting to hurt her and get his kicks'. He's bigger and stronger than her and she didn't have her wand - if he was actually in it to rape her and thought she was going to be against it, he would not have attempted to be remotely tender with her, or left her limbs free. And I also think you have a very strange idea of punishments compared to the legal system - namely, they don't work that way and don't deserve to work that way, which is why they have the sentences they have.
As for the 'crap he pulled', outside of that particular instance, it boiled down to pranks, thoughtless remarks (because words merit whipping, apparently) and giving other girls attention when the two weren't even in a relationship.
Ah yes, let's antagonize the people holding your life in their hands, because surely they'd kill you anyway. Except now they'll kill you with less time to spare for countermeasures, and you'll have pushed them into a situation where you're far, far more likely to die, since they'd now be acting in defense rather than killing in cold blood.
I might be willing to entertain arguments on the merits of specific actions to be taken in such a situation, the emotional impact and influence of such a situation, etc. but the 'die fighting' reasoning is one I will forever look down upon as the melodramatic bullshit it is. Particularly when you're automatically assuming death and worse otherwise anyway based on fear and distrust.
Ars Poetica
ULTIMA RATIO NEMO OBLIGATUR
- Location
- The Kingdom of Fiore
- Pronouns
- He / Him / His
Let's be clear. Canon!Saito was a douchebag. Was he the worst douchebag? No. Hardly. There are so many other male harem protagonists who are so much worse than Saito on every level. He's a stock harem protag that doesn't always pick the smartest or most morally acceptable option. I'll grant you this. I can't let you say that he deserves castration or death for what he did. That's insane.
Secondly, Louise. Louise is terrible. She isn't the most toxic Tsundere bitch I've ever seen in fiction. She comes closer to it than Saito does to his archetype. It strikes me as odd that you're willing to subject Saito to this kind of awful punishment and then not turn around and point out what Louise does.
They're both objectively terrible people. They both do awful things. If I had to choose, Louise is worse than Saito due to the fact that Saito is "just" a pervert while Louise deliberately beats him senselessly for barely any justification. But the fact that I'm using the word "worse" implies that Saito is pretty fucking bad to start. Neither of these characters are ones that I rooted for in canon.
So, for me to want them to win here, I have to like them. And you know what? I do. I like Shade's version of these characters. I feel they can stand without having to be in the shadows of their canon selves. As an AU, I legitimately could care less about what Louise or Saito did in Canon. I care about what this version of them does here.
And when I look at what they did... it was stupid. They went after Siesta with no plan except to "save her" and it backfired, horribly. They were forced to rely on blind luck in order to get out of that scenario and, to the author's credit, I... don't mind that. Not every Deus ex Machina has to be terrible. If you look at these two as their own characters, then what happened here was a defining moment for Louise that pushed her from being an average mage to a powerful mage when the chips are down.
If you look at this from the perspective of what we know from canon, this Louise did something that should've been well within her abilities anyway. I genuinely do not understand what the problem is. Is the problem that they didn't kill the mercenaries? Let's consider; she had them beaten. They outright claimed they have no interest in Siesta anymore. Killing them, at this point, would be the equivalent of putting a bullet into the back of the head of a man who surrendered. That, friends, is reprehensible.
So what is the problem? I don't know. I'm just trying to enjoy the story as it develops.
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Dimensionist
Grandmaster of Apologism, Keeper of the Faith
- Location
- Bangalore, India
Yeah. If people got 'Saito is a saint' from what I was saying, then sorry - that's not what I meant. He does a lot of dumb stuff from our perspective, and he's thoughtlessly hurtful at times. He is pretty bad, quite a bit of the time. He also charged an army of seventy thousand and certain death for the girl he loved, challenged a country for a friend, kneeled and humiliated himself for another because he thought it was necessary, etc. Good and bad moments.
It's the same with Louise, though her bad moments are pretty predominant. She also saves Saito's bacon at times, she's loyal to her country, she's hard-working, she's willing to sacrifice herself for what she believes in, etc. Good and bad (though from what I've seen, she's got far more bad moments than Saito - but hey, maybe I am biased, who knows).
In the story, they always had it in them to be great people, to be the kind of stuff heroes are made of. Unfortunately, any character development they had was summarily reset - I don't know if it was the author, or if maybe his editors wanted it that way, but it was. And that reset led to their negative traits being emphasized again and again, to the point people here and on SB were completely turned off the characters.
@shadenight123's story, so far, has these negative traits come up much more rarely and in much less extreme ways, so their characters are more likable. The reasoning isn't bad either - Louise's circumstances are different, Saito feels more of a partnership with her than love and vice-versa, leading to less jealousy and fuckups all around, etc. It's generally good all around, though the low-tier activities somewhat chafe at me (though that's just a personal preference).
It's the same with Louise, though her bad moments are pretty predominant. She also saves Saito's bacon at times, she's loyal to her country, she's hard-working, she's willing to sacrifice herself for what she believes in, etc. Good and bad (though from what I've seen, she's got far more bad moments than Saito - but hey, maybe I am biased, who knows).
In the story, they always had it in them to be great people, to be the kind of stuff heroes are made of. Unfortunately, any character development they had was summarily reset - I don't know if it was the author, or if maybe his editors wanted it that way, but it was. And that reset led to their negative traits being emphasized again and again, to the point people here and on SB were completely turned off the characters.
@shadenight123's story, so far, has these negative traits come up much more rarely and in much less extreme ways, so their characters are more likable. The reasoning isn't bad either - Louise's circumstances are different, Saito feels more of a partnership with her than love and vice-versa, leading to less jealousy and fuckups all around, etc. It's generally good all around, though the low-tier activities somewhat chafe at me (though that's just a personal preference).
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- Location
- The Old Dominion
I am not going to go into this further as this is not the thread for such things. Needless to say I view certain acts as special sort of evil. Regardless such traits are not present and this is the first time I can think seen a Saito that was some what likable.
- Pronouns
- she/her
As far as I can tell, no one has been criticizing the story itself- we are mainly arguing over whether or not Saito's choice in this chapter was indicative of his character flaws or totally the best choice he could have made in that situation.
Ars Poetica
ULTIMA RATIO NEMO OBLIGATUR
- Location
- The Kingdom of Fiore
- Pronouns
- He / Him / His
Well, what else could he have done? What else should he have done? I don't think these are questions we should be asking. What we should be asking is "What did he do" and "Why did he do it". He wanted to save Siesta, so he went to do that. Louise could have stopped him, but she went with him. Marteu could have stayed behind, but he went as well. They could've come up with a plan, but they didn't.
In the end, they made a rash and dangerous series of decisions that almost got them and the person they were trying to save killed. Instead, it saved her. Until we see how they react to what might have happened, or what actually happened, why should we care about either of those details? I certainly don't.
Dimensionist
Grandmaster of Apologism, Keeper of the Faith
- Location
- Bangalore, India
I'm actually curious - what do you guys think they could have done to salvage that situation?
Like, those of you saying Saito was an idiot to do what he did - what would your grand plan have been to save everyone at that time? And note that you've had a lot more time than Saito to come up with it, so if it isn't phenomenal and easy to intuit out in a pinch ... well, that's how it goes.
Like, those of you saying Saito was an idiot to do what he did - what would your grand plan have been to save everyone at that time? And note that you've had a lot more time than Saito to come up with it, so if it isn't phenomenal and easy to intuit out in a pinch ... well, that's how it goes.
- Pronouns
- she/her
How about literally anything except put the entire party at the mercy of people who have proven they are willing to torture and kill without attempting some semblance of negotiation. Or consider the cost of destroying items which their livelihood relies upon. Or try the thing that worked last time a girl was in a hostage position (throw Gandalfr powered projectile at hostage taker, profit)?
Regardless, the criticism is not that he should have been hyper competent and done X, it's that his actions show a complete lack of thought and would have doomed them all had it not been for Louise's deus ex machina. What Saito did was fucking stupid and made things worse, the reason I came up with alternatives was to show that there were other options because people are still arguing he made the only choice possible. Saito was trapped by his lack of critical thinking skills more than the hostages, his actions were what put the party in a completely inescapable situation.
Such ideas have already been posted, if you scroll up you can find them. In fact Saito already came up with one himself during the haunted house which is why I find his decision in this chapter so disappointing, as it felt like he was backsliding into stupidity. He already had an solution which he knew worked, but he didn't use it!
Ars Poetica
ULTIMA RATIO NEMO OBLIGATUR
- Location
- The Kingdom of Fiore
- Pronouns
- He / Him / His
Actually, I'm curious. Since I'm bouncing between three other threads, an active game, and a YouTube video, mind restating his alternative option in detail? Just a step-by-step plan of what Saito could have or should have done from where he was at the academy before going out to save Siesta?